Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5
Discussion
Don't think this has been picked up yet.
Federation of small businesses report....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10981095/Sm...
Federation of small businesses report....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10981095/Sm...
The impact of Scotland leaving will be huge: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293
paulrockliffe said:
Intersting point above about capital flight. If there's a Yes vote and capital flight occurs before Independence Day, what are the financial implications and who bears any costs?
Is it a zero-sum game if the flight is to the rUK, or are there potential consequences?
Not my area of expertise, so just asking the question.
My view is that if capital flight occurs from RBS (for example) to Barclays, overall for the UK it's zero sum.Is it a zero-sum game if the flight is to the rUK, or are there potential consequences?
Not my area of expertise, so just asking the question.
However, a collapsing RBS couldn't be permitted by the UK government, and so it would need to be bailed out.
Considering the scale of the impact of Northern Rock, the real big boys experiencing runs on their desks could be very bad indeed.
Layman's view, but I think it holds water?
mcdjl said:
The impact of Scotland leaving will be huge: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293
"So an already busy island would suddenly become much more crowded, statistically at least."No it wouldn't. What a numpty of a journalist!
Very interesting that Wales has exports at almost as high a level as Scotland, I didn't expect/ know that.
mcdjl said:
The impact of Scotland leaving will be huge: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.Or in this case, just statistics.
simoid said:
"So an already busy island would suddenly become much more crowded, statistically at least."
No it wouldn't. What a numpty of a journalist!
Very interesting that Wales has exports at almost as high a level as Scotland, I didn't expect/ know that.
There is one thing to be said for this referendum, the expansion of knowledge into otherwise totally unknown areas has certainly been improved.No it wouldn't. What a numpty of a journalist!
Very interesting that Wales has exports at almost as high a level as Scotland, I didn't expect/ know that.
"The modern Welsh economy is dominated by the service sector. In 2000, services contributed 66% to GVA, the manufacturing sector contributed 32%, while agriculture, forestry and fishing together contributed 1.5%.[6]"
So much more than just sheep and singing
king call centres 
andymadmak said:
I don't think that Scotland can't do it. Indeed, I believe Scotland could do it. BUT... Not on the terms that Salmond and the SNP are saying will apply, and which they are using as the reasons for why Scotland should vote YES!. THAT's the big problem I have. Scotland is being sold a lie and the YES campaign is not even trying to conceal it's mendacity.
(Cue Calvib claiming that this is just abuse..)
Lets take 3 simple issues:
By any sensible analysis there will be no currency union with rUK. How can there be when the other party to that union has already ruled it out.. Yet Salmond says there will be. He even keeps parroting the line that such a union would be in the best interests of rUK, when every single expert on the subject has said clearly that it would not be.
Why does Salmond say this? Well you have to conclude that Scotland needs a currency union, and the only way to allay yes voters fears on this issue is to lie to them and say that rUK is bluffing and bullying when it says it's not going to happen. At this point Scottish "pride" takes over and the "they need us more than we need them" mantra churns out to cover up the mutterings of doubt.
Without a currency union, things are going to be VERY tough for Scotland - especially for the poor, the old and those unable to pick up their skills and migrate. Impossible for Scotland? No. Painful? More than likely.
All the sensible analysis says Scotland is out of the EU when it leave UK. There are letters from the EU that are pretty well unequivocal in this regard. It simply beggars belief that any YES voter can keep a straight face when parroting otherwise. Calvib hides behind the old "I think we both know that nothing is settled...." nonsense and uses this as "evidence" that continuance of EU membership is more than likely. There appears to be genuine cognitive dissonance at play here within the Yes fraternity. It's a massive, massive gamble, and one which really will have a massive impact on Scotland if the Yes camp is wrong in its assertions. Were I a Scotsman I'd expect more than just nudge nudge, style statements from Salmond and co in response to those EU letters if I was to be convinced that somehow Salmond was right and they were wrong..
Can Scotland get back into the EU? Yes, for sure. Can it be certain to do so quickly, and at the same preferential terms as rUK? No, not a cat in hells chance in my genuine opinion. Moreover, Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, rebates, etc..... Why would the EU give these goody things to Scotland when it's clear that a Scotland out of the UK will need the EU more than ever?
Even Scottish pride does not answer this point.
Shipbuilding. The UK has NEVER built complex warships outside the UK. The UK policy is to NOT build complex warships outside the UK. EU rules make it VERY difficult for the UK to build complex warships outside the UK but only in Scotland - all the others have to be allowed to compete too. The UK has dropped enormous hints that it will NOT build complex warships outside the UK in the vent of a yes vote.
Given that the above are all facts, how can it POSSIBLY be correct for salmod to assert that Scotland will continue to build complex warships for the Royal Navy? Even the bloody contractor (BAE) has as good as said it will relocate if it has to. On this point alone, every person involved in shipbuilding for the Royal Navy on the Clyde should be shaking their heads in disbelief at the sheer mendacity and casual disregard for their livelihoods shown by Salmond and co.
You asked why the rUK wants to keep Scotland? Ahh, this is the mantra of the Nats who seem hell bent on proving that Scotland is being raped by the Union. "Why do they want to keep the Union together?" they cry, "it's only because we pay more than our share, we prop up the rUK, we pay for everything, they are stealing our oil, they are a parasitic load" (all things said by yessers in these threads) This is of course based on the mentality that the Union itself is wrong and must only be being preserved for reasons that are detrimental to Scotland - there's that paranoia thing again!
Well the truth is none of those things. The truth is we want to keep the union because it works bloody well! . Any rational assessment of it could only come to that conclusion. Plus our diversity and cultural awareness of each other makes us strong. And in the final analysis the change in the event of a Yes vote will affect us all, north and south of the border. There will be damage, but we will recover from that, as will Scotland (eventually) but why inflict it in the first place, especially as the YES camp appears to be based on so many lies and misconceptions? (not to mention a good smattering of racism, xenophobia and sectarian nastiness) You only have to look at all the things that Scotland wants to keep from the union to realise just what a success the union is. I could say to Salmond, if you are so desperate to be independence, why do you still want the currency, the monarchy, the jobs, the subsidies etc?
Lastly, like so many other Englishmen, Welshmen and Norns I am personally very pissed off with the way the Yes camp has denigrated my country and abused its peoples in the course of this debate. I have been told that I am a bully, an abuser, a parasite and a thief. If you vote yes, do NOT expect ANY favours from me or people like me. The gloves will come off. That's not a threat, it's a bare cold hard fact. You cannot abuse us in the ways you have and then expect us to be all pally and roll over for the things you want (need!).
Reap what you sow Scotland.
Great post, worthy of a quote.(Cue Calvib claiming that this is just abuse..)
Lets take 3 simple issues:
By any sensible analysis there will be no currency union with rUK. How can there be when the other party to that union has already ruled it out.. Yet Salmond says there will be. He even keeps parroting the line that such a union would be in the best interests of rUK, when every single expert on the subject has said clearly that it would not be.
Why does Salmond say this? Well you have to conclude that Scotland needs a currency union, and the only way to allay yes voters fears on this issue is to lie to them and say that rUK is bluffing and bullying when it says it's not going to happen. At this point Scottish "pride" takes over and the "they need us more than we need them" mantra churns out to cover up the mutterings of doubt.
Without a currency union, things are going to be VERY tough for Scotland - especially for the poor, the old and those unable to pick up their skills and migrate. Impossible for Scotland? No. Painful? More than likely.
All the sensible analysis says Scotland is out of the EU when it leave UK. There are letters from the EU that are pretty well unequivocal in this regard. It simply beggars belief that any YES voter can keep a straight face when parroting otherwise. Calvib hides behind the old "I think we both know that nothing is settled...." nonsense and uses this as "evidence" that continuance of EU membership is more than likely. There appears to be genuine cognitive dissonance at play here within the Yes fraternity. It's a massive, massive gamble, and one which really will have a massive impact on Scotland if the Yes camp is wrong in its assertions. Were I a Scotsman I'd expect more than just nudge nudge, style statements from Salmond and co in response to those EU letters if I was to be convinced that somehow Salmond was right and they were wrong..
Can Scotland get back into the EU? Yes, for sure. Can it be certain to do so quickly, and at the same preferential terms as rUK? No, not a cat in hells chance in my genuine opinion. Moreover, Euro opt out, Schengen opt out, rebates, etc..... Why would the EU give these goody things to Scotland when it's clear that a Scotland out of the UK will need the EU more than ever?
Even Scottish pride does not answer this point.
Shipbuilding. The UK has NEVER built complex warships outside the UK. The UK policy is to NOT build complex warships outside the UK. EU rules make it VERY difficult for the UK to build complex warships outside the UK but only in Scotland - all the others have to be allowed to compete too. The UK has dropped enormous hints that it will NOT build complex warships outside the UK in the vent of a yes vote.
Given that the above are all facts, how can it POSSIBLY be correct for salmod to assert that Scotland will continue to build complex warships for the Royal Navy? Even the bloody contractor (BAE) has as good as said it will relocate if it has to. On this point alone, every person involved in shipbuilding for the Royal Navy on the Clyde should be shaking their heads in disbelief at the sheer mendacity and casual disregard for their livelihoods shown by Salmond and co.
You asked why the rUK wants to keep Scotland? Ahh, this is the mantra of the Nats who seem hell bent on proving that Scotland is being raped by the Union. "Why do they want to keep the Union together?" they cry, "it's only because we pay more than our share, we prop up the rUK, we pay for everything, they are stealing our oil, they are a parasitic load" (all things said by yessers in these threads) This is of course based on the mentality that the Union itself is wrong and must only be being preserved for reasons that are detrimental to Scotland - there's that paranoia thing again!
Well the truth is none of those things. The truth is we want to keep the union because it works bloody well! . Any rational assessment of it could only come to that conclusion. Plus our diversity and cultural awareness of each other makes us strong. And in the final analysis the change in the event of a Yes vote will affect us all, north and south of the border. There will be damage, but we will recover from that, as will Scotland (eventually) but why inflict it in the first place, especially as the YES camp appears to be based on so many lies and misconceptions? (not to mention a good smattering of racism, xenophobia and sectarian nastiness) You only have to look at all the things that Scotland wants to keep from the union to realise just what a success the union is. I could say to Salmond, if you are so desperate to be independence, why do you still want the currency, the monarchy, the jobs, the subsidies etc?
Lastly, like so many other Englishmen, Welshmen and Norns I am personally very pissed off with the way the Yes camp has denigrated my country and abused its peoples in the course of this debate. I have been told that I am a bully, an abuser, a parasite and a thief. If you vote yes, do NOT expect ANY favours from me or people like me. The gloves will come off. That's not a threat, it's a bare cold hard fact. You cannot abuse us in the ways you have and then expect us to be all pally and roll over for the things you want (need!).
Reap what you sow Scotland.
With your last point, try being Scottish and being pissed off with the yes camp. For example every week on the way to work (Kingsway in Dundee for anyone that knows it) I see a huge YES sign in someones garden that is the entire size of the front of the garden. I get an overwhelming desire to blast my horn to wake the idiot up at 4:45am when I drive past (I don't for the record, if it were a single house in isolation though...) Why can't these people just have a view without plastering it about for the world to see?
Silverbullet767 said:
Great post, worthy of a quote.
With your last point, try being Scottish and being pissed off with the yes camp. For example every week on the way to work (Kingsway in Dundee for anyone that knows it) I see a huge YES sign in someones garden that is the entire size of the front of the garden. I get an overwhelming desire to blast my horn to wake the idiot up at 4:45am when I drive past (I don't for the record, if it were a single house in isolation though...) Why can't these people just have a view without plastering it about for the world to see?
They want people to know they're in the cult.With your last point, try being Scottish and being pissed off with the yes camp. For example every week on the way to work (Kingsway in Dundee for anyone that knows it) I see a huge YES sign in someones garden that is the entire size of the front of the garden. I get an overwhelming desire to blast my horn to wake the idiot up at 4:45am when I drive past (I don't for the record, if it were a single house in isolation though...) Why can't these people just have a view without plastering it about for the world to see?
They see themselves as enlightened, and everyone else as ignorant/not educated enough yet. This comes from the VERY top of the yes campaign and it's actually a frightening prospect.
I was told by one yes campaigner recently, after explaining I was going to vote no because I didn't think the plan for independence stood up to much scrutiny, that the government had done an excellent job on me. That man knew nothing about me, my life experience, my education, my work. Anything, really. Yet he had the temerity to say something like that.
He discovered his lines about Trident, governments we didn't vote for, scaremongering, Tony Blair moving the sea boundary, illegal wars, a whole splurge of the usaul negative nationalist diatribe, were not chiming with me. So he insulted me.
The mind boggles.
Luckily Simoid we have a whole slew of nationalist idiots on here you can insult just by asking any question which is pertinent to independence. You'd think after the repeated factual kickings they have received, that they would have beat a permanent retreat. But no they keep coming back with the same on-message tripe as propagated by the class idiots at Holyrood.
Borghetto said:
Luckily Simoid we have a whole slew of nationalist idiots on here you can insult just by asking any question which is pertinent to independence. You'd think after the repeated factual kickings they have received, that they would have beat a permanent retreat. But no they keep coming back with the same on-message tripe as propagated by the class idiots at Holyrood.
Well that's the thing isn't it. If I was in their position I would either steer well clear of this thread or come on and try and put forward a cogent, persuasive case for a yes a vote, field the questions, provide decent answers and concede that risks exist.Essentially they need to be salesman for their product.
But that's not what happens - we have everything from Fluff's parallel universe to xj's sectarian rants and all points in between and not an ounce of substance or reason in any of them.
What do they think they achieving?
Alfa numeric said:
Calvib said:
el stovey said:
Calvib said:
You need a geography lesson mate. Scotland will still be part of the British Isles (i.e. British) after independence. We just won't be in the UK. But we can still use the Union Flag.
Scotland can use the Union flag when it's not in the union? later on Calvib said:
Continued use of Union Flag.
Why would you want to use the flag of a foreign country rather than your own? 
Or with added mythical creature:
Funk said:
Alfa numeric said:
Calvib said:
el stovey said:
Calvib said:
You need a geography lesson mate. Scotland will still be part of the British Isles (i.e. British) after independence. We just won't be in the UK. But we can still use the Union Flag.
Scotland can use the Union flag when it's not in the union? later on Calvib said:
Continued use of Union Flag.
Why would you want to use the flag of a foreign country rather than your own? Or with added mythical creature:
He's half right on the history: the Union Flag of James I and VI had the St George's Cross over the Saltire, but no Saltire of St Patrick.
Well this is kind of awkward isn't boys and girls
A Scottish MEP has asked Juncker about the future of scotland in the EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1pyyLJskg
A Scottish MEP has asked Juncker about the future of scotland in the EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1pyyLJskg
McWigglebum4th said:
Well this is kind of awkward isn't boys and girls
A Scottish MEP has asked Juncker about the future of scotland in the EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1pyyLJskg
What just happened? A Scottish MEP has asked Juncker about the future of scotland in the EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1pyyLJskg
Did he answer the question..I couldn't follow the mumbling.
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