Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[Troubleatmill]

pcvdriver said:

Alpacaman said:

So when all these people are persuaded to live in Scotland, and they get to retirement age, who will pay their pensions? More immigrants? and then who pays their pensions? Plus where will they live? And where are all the jobs coming from that don't exist at the moment? Especially since half the jobs will be disappearing down south. It doesn't make sense but then nothing to do with independence does.

And just because you are happy with lots of people moving here, I can guarantee a lot of people won't be when they feel they are losing out on jobs and council houses etc, when their neighbourhood changes, as can be seen in a lot of towns in the UK already. Especially if they are already struggling under the rule of president for life AS.

The Economic Research Institute, who have conducted extensive research into this very issue have concluded that it will take 50 years things to reach critical mass. So over the next 50 years we have plenty of time to adjust, prepare and plan for the numbers we require.
Yes, these things will cost money. Yes, we may even have to borrow to pay for things initially. However it should be remembered that after the 2nd WW we had much higher levels of borrowing than we have today and this did not prove to be detrimental to the levels of growth we experienced at the time.
No country is entirely without debt, or very rarely so, an analogy would be that not everyone, apart from a few wealthy people can afford to buy their home outright without recourse to obtaining a mortgage, like the rest of us mere mortals have to.

Debt is not necessarily a bad thing. Most successful companies have debt.
But, Governments are generally bad at prudent fiscal management. It is a concept beyond Labour. There is no hope for them.

The YES campaign sell a great picture - Lots of we will have. But there is jack st of - how we can afford it.

Seriously - if you truly believe in YES; demand the numbers and the "how's" from them. If it all adds up - the YES vote could top 90%

But - I bet they don't share it with you. Can you think why that is?

Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 15th April 19:27

[Welshbeef]

Salmonds response to Hulmes statement that if there was Indy Yes vote then MOD orders/contracts would cease and clearly would result in Job losses in Scotland in those areas sadly.

Salmond oddly said well here we have a French company building parts for our Navy three countries working in friendship ... That was all....

I really struggle with how he responds to interesting statements which are statements of fact. Does he not understand if its a Yes vote rUK would move the contracts current and all future to RUK ports all of whom would welcome the work all that currently unemployed labour which were paying out of work benefits and the knock on impact of lower wealth in an area to its economy. WHY would any country elect to do this unless it had full employment?


And we still have no answers.

Seems that pro No keep coming out with unpalatable issues for the SNP and they seem to say preposterous a lot of times then bluff or quite often there is Salmond literally LOL on camera at the question. Now either the pro yes voters are thick tts And believe Salmond like he is the Oracle of truth or no matter what the No campaign said they would still vote yes just because

Frankly the Pro Yes supporters I've seen/heard I'd like them out of our country they are clearly a drain on the economy and unbelievably thick with also a very ugly side (death threats to any celeb who speaks out in support of a yes vote).

[Siscar]

If Scotland is a member of the EU how would it be legal to charge rUK students to attend university? If it would not be legal then how would it be paid for?

Under EU pensions law how will the sector cope with cross border pensions being fully funded if Scotland is a member of the EU?

Under EU law how could rUK favour Scottish yards on naval shipbuilding?

Any answers?

[Welshbeef]

Siscar said:

If Scotland is a member of the EU how would it be legal to charge rUK students to attend university? If it would not be legal then how would it be paid for?

Under EU pensions law how will the sector cope with cross border pensions being fully funded if Scotland is a member of the EU?

Under EU law how could rUK favour Scottish yards on naval shipbuilding?

Any answers?

But its all preposterous bluff bluster bullying and dictat - oh must forget scaremongering.

SNP seem to use these lines a LOT and they really don't like it when the No team use the same words on some topic the SNP have raised.


White paper its preposterous

[Gecko1978]

pcvdriver said:

The clue was Indefinite Leave to Remain - this does not apply to EU nationals, meaning the other 6.5 billion on the planet. I'm not for one moment suggesting that all would want to come, merely that the rules should be the same for those from the rest of the planet, as currently enjoyed by those from (EU) Europe.

WTF.....you want to allow anyone to stay long as they like. Ok apart from economic cultural and security issues what about the current uk population who we might want to support into old age.

[Troubleatmill]

Welshbeef said:

White paper its preposterous

"White paper" is not a white paper. It is a brochure.

The link in the last 2-3 pages on defence makes for quite eye opening reading.

[Welshbeef]

Troubleatmill said:

Welshbeef said:

White paper its preposterous

"White paper" is not a white paper. It is a brochure.

The link in the last 2-3 pages on defence makes for quite eye opening reading.

Exactly but why do the Yessers just seem to ignore it? They refuse to comment on any points where clearly the answer isn't what they want so its then let's get immigration up to pay for pensions

[mpire]

pcvdriver said:

mpire said:

By cynically ensuring anyone in England cannot possibly have a input
in electing a government of a colour unpopular here ?

Why should England have any say in what sort of Government that we have in Scotland?

Why should the one or two left leaning constituents in the Surrey stockbroker
belt, not get the pro Labourite sympathising administration they no doubt would wish for as
well ?

Do these people also get to impose their minority viewpoint on the
majority, too ?

No, by and large they just get on with it, as they are a minority.

There are people all over the country who don't see their party elected,
because theirs is a minority viewpoint. Salmond has orchestrated this whole shebang to ensure
HIS minority viewpoint has been given the greatest chance to succeed,
by ensuring the majority are excluded .... stacked deck ?


For better or worse on THIS island your viewpoint is in the minority .

All you can do is attempt to subdivide opinion and allude to to the
notion that on two small islands clinging to the edge of a continent ...

we are all " different " .....

Edited by mpire on Thursday 17th April 06:06

[Troubleatmill]

Welshbeef said:

Troubleatmill said:

Welshbeef said:

White paper its preposterous

"White paper" is not a white paper. It is a brochure.

The link in the last 2-3 pages on defence makes for quite eye opening reading.

Exactly but why do the Yessers just seem to ignore it? They refuse to comment on any points where clearly the answer isn't what they want so its then let's get immigration up to pay for pensions

1/ Some are unable to. They lack the mental capacity. ( This is true of politics of all sides. )
2/ Some have ostrich syndrome - they don't want to hear it (as above)
3/ Some have been so indoctrinated - black is white. Remember you are dealing with 2M in Central Scotland who have been brought up with venomous religious bigotry. It starts when you are young - "What school did you go to?". leading up to "dirty f****n b*****ds" and other malicious spite. Heck - there used to be at least 4 old firm games a year where the poison on both religious groups could be heard. No-one does religious nasty like Northern Island and Central Scotland. Areas like Larkhall famously refuse to paint fences green.
4/ Perception. Union = 50/50 partnership. 50 odd seats in Westminster compared to 600 doesn't say union.
5/ TV - 80 odd percent of programming will come from outside Scotland. ( And for some reason when there were only 3 channels on the telly - it broadcast 40 hours of cricket a week. That one is not forgiven )
6/ Some truly desire independence regardless of what it costs. But - the costs should be known. You would never buy a house without knowing how much the mortgage is going to cost you.
7/ People are sheep. You will find this in all walks of life. How long until PH homepage posts the next Porsche is wonderful thread.

The list could go on and on.

Scotland can choose independence - but the population should ask for all of the information to be made available to make informed decisions.
The SNP have not shared that information. Regardless of your politics - you should be asking - Why not?

If Scotland choose independence knowing exactly what it entails - and make a go of it. Then it is a good thing.
Problem is.... decisions are going to be made on soundbites.

You make your bed - you lie in it. (edit) - and so do your children and their children etc etc.. You best be really sure you have thought this out thoroughly.

Edited by Troubleatmill on Tuesday 15th April 20:39

[simoid]

Also worth remembering that the key economic points for change in the white paper involve... wait for it...

A stload of borrowing.

Borrow to pay for childcare that cannot be recouped;
Borrow to cut corporation tax that will hopefully be recouped.

[A.J.M]

simoid said:

Also worth remembering that the key economic points for change in the white paper involve... wait for it...

A stload of borrowing.

Borrow to pay for childcare that cannot be recouped;
Borrow to cut corporation tax that will hopefully be recouped.

Ah, but you have missed out the critical point here.

In the great people's socialist republic of Scotland, we can borrow like no tomorrow, work less, spend more, have an oil fund even though we will have a deficit.

All because the Lord God Alex almighty hath proclaimed that the entire world shall bow before Scotland and it's vast wealth of natural and renewable resources.

Easy.

Take THAT, scummy English Tory voting child murdering, coal mine closing bd!

ps, can you let us use your money, speak to the EU about letting us in the gang, and give us all your ship building stuff. Thanks xx

[Borghetto]

simoid said:

Borrow to pay for childcare that cannot be recouped;
.

But you don't understand, the childcare costs will be recouped by the massive increase in GDP from this tidal wave of productive young mothers entering the workforce. Quite what jobs they will do or even if there are jobs they are suited for, Alex has kept secret - a bit like our PH Nats.

[Alpacaman]

I hardly think I am being "silly" regarding AS, it seems he can do anything he wants, lying about legal advice, avoiding telling anyone about his expenses and hotel costs, etc, etc and he gets away with it. If that had been the UK parliament he would have been out on his ear long ago.

[Welshbeef]

Alpacaman said:

I hardly think I am being "silly" regarding AS, it seems he can do anything he wants, lying about legal advice, avoiding telling anyone about his expenses and hotel costs, etc, etc and he gets away with it. If that had been the UK parliament he would have been out on his ear long ago.

Well look at Farrage today an allowance he and all other MEPs are entitled to spend on a huge list of things which he has done and he is facing very challenging questions which will go on and on.

[simoid]

Borghetto said:

simoid said:

Borrow to pay for childcare that cannot be recouped;
.

But you don't understand, the childcare costs will be recouped by the massive increase in GDP from this tidal wave of productive young mothers entering the workforce. Quite what jobs they will do or even if there are jobs they are suited for, Alex has kept secret - a bit like our PH Nats.

Can't recall the exact figures, but I believe if there are 100,000 extra mothers in work, it'll pay for itself in a few years.

We have nowhere near that number of economically inactive mothers.

[Welshbeef]

simoid said:

Can't recall the exact figures, but I believe if there are 100,000 extra mothers in work, it'll pay for itself in a few years.

We have nowhere near that number of economically inactive mothers.

Superb - though why are the No campaign not smashing Sturgeons back doors in on this point?

[Siscar]

You need 105,000 mothers going to work, there are 60,000 who are possibles.

Another junk policy from the SNP.

[Troubleatmill]

Welshbeef said:

simoid said:

Can't recall the exact figures, but I believe if there are 100,000 extra mothers in work, it'll pay for itself in a few years.

We have nowhere near that number of economically inactive mothers.

Superb - though why are the No campaign not smashing Sturgeons back doors in on this point?

Patience.

Simple analogy: Do you see these Dyson ad's on the telly.

The Dyson vacuum cleaners have around 50+ key things that differentiate them from their competitors.
If you try to tell the population all 50 in one hit.... the message is lost.

The trick is to tell the population one key point at a time.

Ask a competent marketing bod about this. It is important.

We have still to see the killer blow.

[alock]

mpire said:

we are all " different " .....

Quite. What they seem to miss is we have the two main parties we do because of the electorate. They are both fairly central, one leans slightly left, the other slightly right.

The same will happen to an independent Scotland. All parties would move to the left so that every few elections a different party gets in.

Those who think they are currently misrepresented will continue to feel the same for 50% of the elections. Everything will just be slightly to the left of where it is now.

[Welshbeef]

Interesting - see quote below from Salmond

"
But in a speech to trade unionists in Dundee, Mr Salmond issued a guarantee that shipbuilding would continue long-term in Scotland.

He insisted the Royal Navy would continue to buy ships from the Clyde, and further jobs would be secured through diversification.
"