Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5
Discussion
nellyleelephant said:
McWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
What more do you think the No camp could have done?
The No campaign are somewhat hampered by the YES campaign run around in circles screaming FREEDDDOOOMMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!! and refuse to engage in any debateMcWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
Short of saying "things will stay as they are" what else are they supposed to have done?
The face painted half brains want the tories to stand up and say that Scotland pays 100 billion trillion billion willion pounds a day into the UK and england is DOOOMMMEEEDDDD!!!!! without them
Edinburger said:
Err... define things as they are? Highlight the benefits of the union?
What - like this?http://bettertogether.net/pages/resources
Edinburger said:
McWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
What more do you think the No camp could have done?
The No campaign are somewhat hampered by the YES campaign run around in circles screaming FREEDDDOOOMMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!! and refuse to engage in any debateWhy then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
So that Mr Salmond could say that a posh English Tory was interfering in Scotlands business?
andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
McWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
What more do you think the No camp could have done?
The No campaign are somewhat hampered by the YES campaign run around in circles screaming FREEDDDOOOMMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!! and refuse to engage in any debateWhy then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
So that Mr Salmond could say that a posh English Tory was interfering in Scotlands business?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10999560/...
The Telegraph said:
Alex Salmond rejects two BBC debates with Alistair Darling
The First Minister turns down two dates for a live BBC debate with the former Labour Chancellor as Better Together insists it must take place before postal votes for the independence referendum are issued.
Alex Salmond has turned down two offers of a head-to-head BBC debate with Alistair Darling despite the First Minister’s boast his opponent has the “heebie jeebies” about taking him on, the Telegraph can disclose today.
Sources close to the negotiations between the two sides said Mr Darling, the former Labour Chancellor, accepted invitations to debate Mr Salmond on August 12 then August 21 but the SNP leader declined both.
It is understood the First Minister is attempting to push the televised showdown back to as close as possible to the referendum’s polling day on September 18 in the hope of maximising its impact.
With the pro-separation Yes Scotland campaign still lagging behind in the opinion polls and only a few weeks to go, the pressure is on Mr Salmond to produce a game-changing performance.
However, the pro-UK Better Together campaign is adamant the debate should be held before Scots who have opted for a postal vote start casting their ballot papers. It is expected that postal votes will be issued around August 26.
The BBC was last night said to be “desperately scrambling” to find a compromise acceptable to both sides amid concern over whether the head-to-head will happen.
Although the Corporation is planning another debate a week before polling day in Glasgow’s Hydro arena, it is thought this will not be a direct contest between Mr Salmond and Mr Darling.
The pair will face each other next week on STV in the first of a series of showdowns that were expected to take place before polling day, with Mr Salmond claiming that “Alistair will have the heebie jeebies now.”
Talks over this debate initially collapsed in acrimony following a disagreement over the date, with the impasse broken when Mr Darling agreed to the First Minister’s demand that it be delayed until after the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.
But senior Better Together insiders said there would be no compromise on their insistence that the BBC debate take place before Scots start voting by post.
“A quarter of people will vote by post at least, so we don’t think that it is fair that the debates happen after the time in which these people will be casting their vote,” one said.
“The BBC are desperately scrambling about trying to find another date that works. We have told them that we are happy to accept another date so long as it meets our basic – and pretty much only – requirement of it being before the postal ballots go out.”
If a deal can be reached, it is expected the BBC debate will see Mr Salmond and Mr Darling answer questions from members of the public in a format similar to Question Time.
A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: “The First Minister looks forward to debating Alistair Darling on the BBC on a date that his diary permits. The Yes case is based on substance, the No campaign seems to be all about silly process stories.”
A BBC spokesman said: “We will announce referendum programme details when they are finalised.”
The First Minister turns down two dates for a live BBC debate with the former Labour Chancellor as Better Together insists it must take place before postal votes for the independence referendum are issued.
Alex Salmond has turned down two offers of a head-to-head BBC debate with Alistair Darling despite the First Minister’s boast his opponent has the “heebie jeebies” about taking him on, the Telegraph can disclose today.
Sources close to the negotiations between the two sides said Mr Darling, the former Labour Chancellor, accepted invitations to debate Mr Salmond on August 12 then August 21 but the SNP leader declined both.
It is understood the First Minister is attempting to push the televised showdown back to as close as possible to the referendum’s polling day on September 18 in the hope of maximising its impact.
With the pro-separation Yes Scotland campaign still lagging behind in the opinion polls and only a few weeks to go, the pressure is on Mr Salmond to produce a game-changing performance.
However, the pro-UK Better Together campaign is adamant the debate should be held before Scots who have opted for a postal vote start casting their ballot papers. It is expected that postal votes will be issued around August 26.
The BBC was last night said to be “desperately scrambling” to find a compromise acceptable to both sides amid concern over whether the head-to-head will happen.
Although the Corporation is planning another debate a week before polling day in Glasgow’s Hydro arena, it is thought this will not be a direct contest between Mr Salmond and Mr Darling.
The pair will face each other next week on STV in the first of a series of showdowns that were expected to take place before polling day, with Mr Salmond claiming that “Alistair will have the heebie jeebies now.”
Talks over this debate initially collapsed in acrimony following a disagreement over the date, with the impasse broken when Mr Darling agreed to the First Minister’s demand that it be delayed until after the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.
But senior Better Together insiders said there would be no compromise on their insistence that the BBC debate take place before Scots start voting by post.
“A quarter of people will vote by post at least, so we don’t think that it is fair that the debates happen after the time in which these people will be casting their vote,” one said.
“The BBC are desperately scrambling about trying to find another date that works. We have told them that we are happy to accept another date so long as it meets our basic – and pretty much only – requirement of it being before the postal ballots go out.”
If a deal can be reached, it is expected the BBC debate will see Mr Salmond and Mr Darling answer questions from members of the public in a format similar to Question Time.
A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: “The First Minister looks forward to debating Alistair Darling on the BBC on a date that his diary permits. The Yes case is based on substance, the No campaign seems to be all about silly process stories.”
A BBC spokesman said: “We will announce referendum programme details when they are finalised.”
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 30th July 09:14
Edinburger said:
More ‘don’t knows’ veer towards Yes so although it's apparently "not in enough numbers to secure victory for the Yes camp" it shows what a piss poor campaign is being run by BT / No Thanks / whatever they're called this week.
You know my views that both campaigns have severely let down the people of Scotland.
You know my views that both campaigns have severely let down the people of Scotland.
Edited by Edinburger on Wednesday 30th July 07:21
Article said:
The findings came from the latest analysis of the British Election Survey (BES), which used two waves of data collected in March and June.
Would this be the same poll that the Nats made a massive issue off by accusing the UK government of funding Better Together?I seem to remember all our resident Nats taking issue with the results of a poll not being released immediately which was obviously proof that the result was po yes
Edinburger said:
For starters, tcould have articulated the benefits of the union because I'd suggest that over 95% of voters are not aware of most of those.
You're either being deliberately troll like or have your head up your arse.https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
This was widely publicised, although I suspect you chose to ignore it. The benefits could not have been more clearly 'articulated.'
From the summary pages:
This paper sets out the programme’s key conclusions, showing that Scotland is better off as
part of the UK, now and in the future:
• The best of both worlds. With a strong Scottish Parliament, Scotland can make its
own decisions in devolved areas, while sharing risks and resources with the other
parts of the UK. More than 200 UK public institutions serve people in Scotland,
underpinned by shared principles and values. If Scotland votes for independence this
will come to an end. Scotland will leave the UK and become a new, separate state.
• The advantages of the pound. As part of the UK, Scotland has one of the oldest
and most stable currencies in the world, supported by the UK’s strong political union.
It would not be possible to recreate today’s arrangements if that political union did
not exist. That is why all three of the largest political parties in the UK have ruled out
sharing the pound or the Bank of England in a formal currency union.
• Lower taxes, higher public spending. A great weight of evidence says that
Scotland’s finances are stronger as part of the UK. Independent experts agree that the
UK offers people in Scotland lower taxes and higher public spending than would be
possible in an independent Scotland. HM Treasury estimates that this is worth £1,400
per person per year for each person in Scotland. The government of an independent
Scotland would exercise additional responsibilities, but it would also have to choose
whether to raise taxes, or cut public services, or both.
• Stronger finances as part of the UK: staying in the larger UK economy helps to
ensure stable funding for public services in Scotland. Scotland’s deficit (shortfall
between what it spends and what it raises in tax each year) is higher than the UK as
a whole. In 2016/17, the proposed year of independence, experts like the Institute for
Fiscal Studies estimate the Scottish deficit will be more than 5 per cent of its economy
– more than twice the deficit expected for the whole of the UK in the same year.
• North Sea oil and gas: revenues from North Sea oil and gas are subject to sudden
change and will ultimately decline. Since 2010, the independent Office for Budget
Responsibility has revised down these revenues by £21 billion. But instead of needing
to cut spending in response, the Scottish Government has benefited from an
additional £2.2 billion, provided by the UK Government.
• Ageing population: pensioners make up nearly 20 per cent of Scotland’s population,
placing pressures on age-related spending and affecting levels of economic growth
and tax revenues. Over the next 20 years, an independent Scotland’s extra spending
on pensioners would rise to around £1.4 billion higher per year.
• The UK Dividend: taken together, HM Treasury estimates that the benefit of stronger
finances as part of the UK saves each person in Scotland the equivalent of at least
£1,400 per year, meaning lower taxes and better public services. Independence would
mean leaving the UK’s stronger public finances and managing challenges separately,
with potential higher taxes and cuts to public services as a result. Summary 7
• Borderless trade: many thousands of Scottish jobs are connected to trade with
England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scottish businesses trade more with the rest
of the UK than with the rest of the world combined. Putting an international border
between Scotland and the UK would slow growth just as the economy is beginning to
take off.
• A world class financial sector: Scotland’s financial sector is large, with assets
totalling more than twelve times the size of an independent Scotland’s economy.
This would make Scotland more vulnerable to financial shocks without the security
and support of the UK’s larger economy, strong institutions or credible reputation in
financial markets.
• Lower cost of borrowing: the UK’s reputation contributes to its lower cost of
borrowing. HM Treasury estimates that as part of the UK, mortgage interest costs are
up to £1,700 lower on the first year of repayments alone for a 75 per cent loan-to-value
mortgage on the average Scottish house.
• Energy bills: the energy market in Great Britain is ten times larger than Scotland’s
alone, so costs are spread across 30 million households and businesses. Staying in
the UK would keep future energy bills for Scottish households up to £189 a year lower.
• Overseas reach: the UK’s extensive overseas network promotes Scottish businesses
and products all over the world, and protects Scottish people when they travel.
• EU membership: an independent Scotland would need to apply to join the EU. The
rules under which it might join are not a matter for Scotland to decide, or negotiate
with the UK. All 28 Member States would need to agree the terms of Scotland’s
membership in what would be a complex, lengthy process and Scotland could not
expect to retain the same terms of membership as the UK.
• Favourable terms: Scotland benefits from the UK’s terms of EU membership:
keeping the UK pound; maintaining a separate free travel area; and retaining a rebate
that saves more than £3 billion a year on payments to the EU. The UK Government
estimates that as part of the UK, over the next seven years, Scotland saves at least
£750 per household on the costs of EU membership.
• Defence and security: defence is one of the largest employers in Scotland,
supporting around 12,600 highly-skilled industry jobs. Scotland is an integral part of
the UK’s defence and security arrangements – defending shared airspace, patrolling
the surrounding seas and helping to protect everyone in the UK against threats.
Care to debate any of these? Or would you prefer to post w
ky links and discuss flags and sitting on the fence?Edinburger said:
Sigh.
Why then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
Does he actually want a debate - or does he want a nationally televised soap box from which to repeat the same scripted answers as before?Why then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
I also wonder whether a heated debate on national TV, especially with a 'tory toff' would be a good way of whipping up dormant nationalism in some fence sitters.
I think Cameron was right to refuse. Even if Salmond brought nothing of substance to the debate (which is likely), it could still benefit his campaign massively. Why hand him a golden ticket?
Edited by Moonhawk on Wednesday 30th July 09:21
Edinburger said:
Welshbeef said:
Edinburger said:
More ‘don’t knows’ veer towards Yes so although it's apparently "not in enough numbers to secure victory for the Yes camp it shows what a piss poor campaign is being run by BT / No Thanks / whatever they're called this week.
You know my views that both campaigns have severely let down the people of Scotland.
By that very same argument the Yes campaign is a piss poor campaign. You know my views that both campaigns have severely let down the people of Scotland.
Edited by Edinburger on Wednesday 30th July 07:21
"It shows what a piss poor campaign is being run by BT / No Thanks / whatever they're called this week. "
London424 said:
Edinburger said:
Err... define things as they are? Highlight the benefits of the union?
Did you not read the counter paper they developed? You know, the one that had those facts and figure things in it?Would surprise me if you didn't.
Moonhawk said:
Edinburger said:
Err... define things as they are? Highlight the benefits of the union?
What - like this?http://bettertogether.net/pages/resources
andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
McWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
What more do you think the No camp could have done?
The No campaign are somewhat hampered by the YES campaign run around in circles screaming FREEDDDOOOMMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!! and refuse to engage in any debateWhy then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
So that Mr Salmond could say that a posh English Tory was interfering in Scotlands business?
Funk said:
andymadmak said:
Edinburger said:
McWigglebum4th said:
nellyleelephant said:
What more do you think the No camp could have done?
The No campaign are somewhat hampered by the YES campaign run around in circles screaming FREEDDDOOOMMMMmmmmmmm!!!!!! and refuse to engage in any debateWhy then, has the FM repeatedley asked the PM for a public debate?
So that Mr Salmond could say that a posh English Tory was interfering in Scotlands business?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10999560/...
The Telegraph said:
Alex Salmond rejects two BBC debates with Alistair Darling
The First Minister turns down two dates for a live BBC debate with the former Labour Chancellor as Better Together insists it must take place before postal votes for the independence referendum are issued.
Alex Salmond has turned down two offers of a head-to-head BBC debate with Alistair Darling despite the First Minister’s boast his opponent has the “heebie jeebies” about taking him on, the Telegraph can disclose today.
Sources close to the negotiations between the two sides said Mr Darling, the former Labour Chancellor, accepted invitations to debate Mr Salmond on August 12 then August 21 but the SNP leader declined both.
It is understood the First Minister is attempting to push the televised showdown back to as close as possible to the referendum’s polling day on September 18 in the hope of maximising its impact.
With the pro-separation Yes Scotland campaign still lagging behind in the opinion polls and only a few weeks to go, the pressure is on Mr Salmond to produce a game-changing performance.
However, the pro-UK Better Together campaign is adamant the debate should be held before Scots who have opted for a postal vote start casting their ballot papers. It is expected that postal votes will be issued around August 26.
The BBC was last night said to be “desperately scrambling” to find a compromise acceptable to both sides amid concern over whether the head-to-head will happen.
Although the Corporation is planning another debate a week before polling day in Glasgow’s Hydro arena, it is thought this will not be a direct contest between Mr Salmond and Mr Darling.
The pair will face each other next week on STV in the first of a series of showdowns that were expected to take place before polling day, with Mr Salmond claiming that “Alistair will have the heebie jeebies now.”
Talks over this debate initially collapsed in acrimony following a disagreement over the date, with the impasse broken when Mr Darling agreed to the First Minister’s demand that it be delayed until after the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.
But senior Better Together insiders said there would be no compromise on their insistence that the BBC debate take place before Scots start voting by post.
“A quarter of people will vote by post at least, so we don’t think that it is fair that the debates happen after the time in which these people will be casting their vote,” one said.
“The BBC are desperately scrambling about trying to find another date that works. We have told them that we are happy to accept another date so long as it meets our basic – and pretty much only – requirement of it being before the postal ballots go out.”
If a deal can be reached, it is expected the BBC debate will see Mr Salmond and Mr Darling answer questions from members of the public in a format similar to Question Time.
A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: “The First Minister looks forward to debating Alistair Darling on the BBC on a date that his diary permits. The Yes case is based on substance, the No campaign seems to be all about silly process stories.”
A BBC spokesman said: “We will announce referendum programme details when they are finalised.”
The First Minister turns down two dates for a live BBC debate with the former Labour Chancellor as Better Together insists it must take place before postal votes for the independence referendum are issued.
Alex Salmond has turned down two offers of a head-to-head BBC debate with Alistair Darling despite the First Minister’s boast his opponent has the “heebie jeebies” about taking him on, the Telegraph can disclose today.
Sources close to the negotiations between the two sides said Mr Darling, the former Labour Chancellor, accepted invitations to debate Mr Salmond on August 12 then August 21 but the SNP leader declined both.
It is understood the First Minister is attempting to push the televised showdown back to as close as possible to the referendum’s polling day on September 18 in the hope of maximising its impact.
With the pro-separation Yes Scotland campaign still lagging behind in the opinion polls and only a few weeks to go, the pressure is on Mr Salmond to produce a game-changing performance.
However, the pro-UK Better Together campaign is adamant the debate should be held before Scots who have opted for a postal vote start casting their ballot papers. It is expected that postal votes will be issued around August 26.
The BBC was last night said to be “desperately scrambling” to find a compromise acceptable to both sides amid concern over whether the head-to-head will happen.
Although the Corporation is planning another debate a week before polling day in Glasgow’s Hydro arena, it is thought this will not be a direct contest between Mr Salmond and Mr Darling.
The pair will face each other next week on STV in the first of a series of showdowns that were expected to take place before polling day, with Mr Salmond claiming that “Alistair will have the heebie jeebies now.”
Talks over this debate initially collapsed in acrimony following a disagreement over the date, with the impasse broken when Mr Darling agreed to the First Minister’s demand that it be delayed until after the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.
But senior Better Together insiders said there would be no compromise on their insistence that the BBC debate take place before Scots start voting by post.
“A quarter of people will vote by post at least, so we don’t think that it is fair that the debates happen after the time in which these people will be casting their vote,” one said.
“The BBC are desperately scrambling about trying to find another date that works. We have told them that we are happy to accept another date so long as it meets our basic – and pretty much only – requirement of it being before the postal ballots go out.”
If a deal can be reached, it is expected the BBC debate will see Mr Salmond and Mr Darling answer questions from members of the public in a format similar to Question Time.
A spokesman for Mr Salmond said: “The First Minister looks forward to debating Alistair Darling on the BBC on a date that his diary permits. The Yes case is based on substance, the No campaign seems to be all about silly process stories.”
A BBC spokesman said: “We will announce referendum programme details when they are finalised.”
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 30th July 09:14
Edinburger said:
How many people do you think read that?
Doesn't matter how many 'people' read it - the question that was put to you was whether you had.If you haven't - then how can you possibly criticise the no campaign for not 'defining things as they are' or 'highlighting the benefits of the union'?
If anything - "fence sitters" such as yourself are the very people who such information is targeted as. Arden't unionists or nationalists will have already made their mind up.
It's odd that you would not want to actively seek out such information.
McWigglebum4th said:
So it's win/win for Salmond.He gets to criticise Cameron either way.
Edinburger said:
Moonhawk said:
Edinburger said:
Err... define things as they are? Highlight the benefits of the union?
What - like this?http://bettertogether.net/pages/resources
Someone wants to know why we are better together.
1/ GOOGLE BETTER TOGETHER. The first hit takes you to bettertogether.net/
2/ Clicking that link - and a very big button on the screen says "GET THE FACTS ON WHY WE ARE BETTER TOGETHER"
3/ Clicking that link..... and everything you want to know about The economy, the pound, jobs, NHS, the case for the UK, Devolution, pensions, defence, welfare, shopping, mortgages, energy bills, EU, oil and gas and universities are all there for the reader.
Can it be made any simpler?
As you are sat on the fence - try it out and read some. Report back with all your questions.
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