Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[Welshbeef]

Welshbeef said:

Troubleatmill said:

Edinburger said:

Welcome to those new posters and/ or those who just emerged from a coma.

Hospital parking in Edinburgh - extortionate.
Dental bills in Edinburgh - expensive


University is free of charge for reasons which have been covered several times.

Hi Edinburger.

You never got back to me with what you thought of John Swinney's secret memo. ( The one that says... pensions will be cut, public sector workers cut, defence cut, oil revenues slashed )

Any thoughts?


Welshbeef has a £50 charity wager riding on this - if that is some motivation.

He must be aware if the direct question to him and the follow up posts asking for it -- maybe a significant number of PMs might finally get the answer.


As a fence sitter it would push me more towards a no vote

Hi Burger

As you are back again - care to respond? Not sure why you don't want a great charity to get a donation - being mute on it doesn't count.

[ofcorsa]

Edinburger said:

In my view, higher education should be free for all students. The Scottish view is also that it should be - and is - free to Scottish students.

Other areas choose to charge for university education so we have to charge students from those areas otherwise we'd have an unsustainable influx of students for free education.

I reposted about this recently. You should ask why YOUR government chooses to charge rather than why the Scots do what they do.

It was THE government that chose to. Including your MPs

[HenryJM]

Edinburger said:

In my view, higher education should be free for all students. The Scottish view is also that it should be - and is - free to Scottish students.

Other areas choose to charge for university education so we have to charge students from those areas otherwise we'd have an unsustainable influx of students for free education.

I reposted about this recently. You should ask why your government chooses to charge rather than why the Scots do what they do.

If this is the case then why would you vote yes? The existing union has allowed you to have exactly what you seem to want.

Of course as an independent country you would have to choose - either don't charge the English, Welsh and Irish and be eligible for the EU or abandon being in the EU and continue to charge them.

In the union you have what you want, out of it you can't have it. So why vote Yes?

[Welshbeef]

HenryJM said:

If this is the case then why would you vote yes? The existing union has allowed you to have exactly what you seem to want.

Of course as an independent country you would have to choose - either don't charge the English, Welsh and Irish and be eligible for the EU or abandon being in the EU and continue to charge them.

In the union you have what you want, out of it you can't have it. So why vote Yes?

Burger is undecided - fence sitting apparently anything which we provide destroying a point or the Sweeny lies he totally ignores or goes off on some tangent. Not sure why he does this maybe its because he is accepting the point as another reason to vote no or he doesn't comprehend the info no matter how basic and trivial or he is a hardened Yes voter claiming to be a fence sitter (not once has he posted up oh look at this bad news for the Yes campaign it is always the Pro No.... Read into that as you will )

He does claim frequently to not being a troll - not sure why anyone would do that when he has been caught out previously over a 14 week timeframe accusing a fellow PH or lying as he had evidence and would be back 2 days later with it 14 weeks past with daily requests none ever came then he flounced for a month (ban).

[Sway]

ofcorsa said:

Edinburger said:

In my view, higher education should be free for all students. The Scottish view is also that it should be - and is - free to Scottish students.

Other areas choose to charge for university education so we have to charge students from those areas otherwise we'd have an unsustainable influx of students for free education.

I reposted about this recently. You should ask why YOUR government chooses to charge rather than why the Scots do what they do.

It was THE government that chose to. Including your MPs

Indeed. Without the votes of the Scottish MPs it wouldn't have passed.

I am however glad it did - the increased funding for universities is welcome, as is the fact that it's the cheapest loan you'll ever get, only paid back once you're working, so no risk.

I consider those who choose not to go to uni due to the perceived cost as those who wouldn't benefit from it due to a lack of critical thinking.

[Cobnapint]

HenryJM said:

If this is the case then why would you vote yes? The existing union has allowed you to have exactly what you seem to want.

In the union you have what you want, out of it you can't have it. So why vote Yes?

All true, but a Yesser reading that would just see a series of odd shapes and squiggles, or just hear white noise if you were reading it out to them.

[Welshbeef]

The odd thing with free Uni places is that the actual Unis are not getting brain drain due to lower total funding v rUK Unis so the staff move to the better funded Unis and new staff choose accordingly.


It was an interesting point raised during the first TV debate.


So its actually really bad for Scottish UNIs medium to long term - the Pro Yes supporters just don't see this

[Cobnapint]

So half-eight tonight on BBC2, The Ego vs common sense and logic (for a Labour guy).

Will we all be tuning in then..?

[Welshbeef]

Burger - answer the question me fence sitter (my arse- utterly a 109% yes voter from day 1)

[Troubleatmill]

Will be interesting to see how Salmond interacts with the camera this time.

Last time Salmond was acting as if he was in a boy band.. You know the ones.... They all sit on bar stools and then raising to hight of the song stand up and walk towards the audience arms open.
Salmond did this numerous times - walk away from the lectern - and try puppy eyes and arms open..

It didn't work. Style over substance.

One thing is clear though - Aliens will not be part of the debate. Alex wrongly assumed that the audience would find it amusing.

[confused_buyer]

Edinburger said:

In my view, higher education should be free for all students. The Scottish view is also that it should be - and is - free to Scottish students.

Other areas choose to charge for university education so we have to charge students from those areas otherwise we'd have an unsustainable influx of students for free education.

Maybe. But if you want to be a member of the EU you cannot discriminate between Scottish & other EU students. It is the law. Scotland only gets away with not charging English students as it is an internal (UK) non-EU matter. As soon as Scotland is a member of the EU in it's own right it has to offer free eduction to rUK students. No debate. Just fact.

Scotland would either have to just pay for this, drop free University education or not join the EU.

[GetCarter]

Neighbours of mine: http://www.channel4.com/news/heres-to-scotland-two...

[Moonhawk]

confused_buyer said:

Maybe. But if you want to be a member of the EU you cannot discriminate between Scottish & other EU students. It is the law. Scotland only gets away with not charging English students as it is an internal (UK) non-EU matter. As soon as Scotland is a member of the EU in it's own right it has to offer free eduction to rUK students. No debate. Just fact.

Scotland would either have to just pay for this, drop free University education or not join the EU.

Thats the thing - Salmond's version of independence seems to have all the good bits of independence, whilst keeping all the good bits of being in a union (like a currency union, remaining in the EU and being able to charge rUK students university fees).

This attitude generally goes by the well known phrase 'having your cake and eating it'

Reality rarely works out like this.

[steveatesh]

confused_buyer said:

Maybe. But if you want to be a member of the EU you cannot discriminate between Scottish & other EU students. It is the law. Scotland only gets away with not charging English students as it is an internal (UK) non-EU matter. As soon as Scotland is a member of the EU in it's own right it has to offer free eduction to rUK students. No debate. Just fact.

Scotland would either have to just pay for this, drop free University education or not join the EU.

Please don't come in here with your facts and truth, it upsets the Nats.

[HenryJM]

confused_buyer said:

Maybe. But if you want to be a member of the EU you cannot discriminate between Scottish & other EU students. It is the law. Scotland only gets away with not charging English students as it is an internal (UK) non-EU matter. As soon as Scotland is a member of the EU in it's own right it has to offer free eduction to rUK students. No debate. Just fact.

Scotland would either have to just pay for this, drop free University education or not join the EU.

Exactly. Under the Union Scotland gets what it wants, the ability to give free education to Scots but not to the rest of the UK. Going independent would take that away.

So Nats, to get what you want on this and other issues (currency, EU, finance sector, shipbuilding, you name it...) vote No. It's the best option to get closest to what say you are after.

[Welshbeef]

So we know if Scotland joined the EU
1. Free Uni places would have to be applicable to all within away - £450million Alex Tax to the yes voters
2. Would have to join Schengen just like all other new entrants as the rules changed in 2000 - boarder controls - the at best time delays Alex time delays or Alex Tax
3. Would have to move towards eventually adopting the Euro - Alex tax for all transactions with its biggest trading partner the rUK
4. Would have to pay into a bailout fund if another of the Euro EU counties was in difficulty
5. Would have to run a budget deficit no more than 2%
6. cannot have debt to GDP greater than 60% (its already way way more than that possibly 84% come split date... Not sure how you get around this)
7. Would have to take in legacy UK debt else rUK and the other EU countries wouldn't allow entry
8.loss of the rebate Thatcher negotiated
9. As all Euro EU countries would have to put VAT on everything all at the same rate - hurting working families
10. Vastly weakened voting powers
11. Loses the veto as only founding members have that.
12. Would have to bid for the tender of Royal Navy contracts couldn't demand it as its EU law - doubt it will be a problem as rUK have many places where they are desperate for the work



Lots of other things but that's a good list.


Burger going to respond to he Sweeny comment you asked for and said you would reply to it has been provided 6 times now are you trying to do the same as last time ie 14 weeks of fibbing you had the truth and refused to provide any info only eventually to come clean as telling a big fat lie (did you get a ban for that if not why not 1 month)

[NoNeed]

Where did Fluff go? I haven't seen him post for a couple of weeks.

[Welshbeef]

So here we go who is tuned in?

[NoNeed]

Welshbeef said:

So here we go who is tuned in?

What channel?

[0a]

Edinburger said:

HenryJM said:

Bank holiday.... Except in Scotland.

We're different... Quel surprise!

75% of my scottish colleagues took the day off! Quiet day with minimal calls/emails.