Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5
Discussion
Saond totally sunk on the trident loss of jobs and its impact on the area - Darling destroyed him on it.
Not sure why Alex was talking party political questions in his cross examination. We have a middle to right leaning UK govt as such policy is generally reduce public spending and cut taxes, the last 13 years we had a labour govt which increased spending at such a rate we are now having to compensate for it. A case of jam today now we pay.
Lastly an interesting one the debt default - he made it clear if he took on liabilities its only fair to have some of he assets - the big issue with that is it is money which has now been spent on capital projects or new ships etc instead its in benefits pensions dole money and the fact we were not able to contract the spending inline with the contraction in tax revenues. So infact he already has the assets and they would go with the iScotland so there is no assets to give.
Its no different if I went out crazy on my credit cars having lots of holidays boozing lots pricy meals out etc (with a partner) then being told unless I give some of those assets then she walks with no debt... Um you've had the assets too and its all gone.
Not sure why Alex was talking party political questions in his cross examination. We have a middle to right leaning UK govt as such policy is generally reduce public spending and cut taxes, the last 13 years we had a labour govt which increased spending at such a rate we are now having to compensate for it. A case of jam today now we pay.
Lastly an interesting one the debt default - he made it clear if he took on liabilities its only fair to have some of he assets - the big issue with that is it is money which has now been spent on capital projects or new ships etc instead its in benefits pensions dole money and the fact we were not able to contract the spending inline with the contraction in tax revenues. So infact he already has the assets and they would go with the iScotland so there is no assets to give.
Its no different if I went out crazy on my credit cars having lots of holidays boozing lots pricy meals out etc (with a partner) then being told unless I give some of those assets then she walks with no debt... Um you've had the assets too and its all gone.
confused_buyer said:
Oh dear Scotland what was that. It appeared to be two 3rd rate politcians from a 3rd world country debating pointless subjects with a wild audience. If it had some silly accents it would have looked like a Fast Show sketch.
Pretty much all of it was pointless. Here today - gone tomorrow political issues like a Bedroom Tax or DLA rules are not relevant when discussing the next 50, 100 or 200 years. This was small time politics being discussed with silly points scoring over any reasoned relevant debate. Salmond, Darling, BBC Scotland and Scotland as a whole should be ashamed of it.
As for Salmond's vision of an independent Scotland it seems to be some sort of rogue state on the edges of Europe with a reckless default to its name using someone else's currency and pleasing benefit receivers by sticking their fingers up at the English for the 3 months before all the money runs out. Presumably, after that, the bankrupt Scotland will blame it on all England for retaining the Malvinas.
I don't know what the result will be - despite all the logical arguments against I've always thought Scotland might vote Yes - but if I lived in Scotland tonight and had even half a brain I would be absolutely s
tting myself.
Good points, it was very very poor. It is a bit of a worry, we are - as a Nation - on the edge of a momumentally idiotic leap into a billion pound folly, and some of the audience clearly looked stupid enough to go for it, cheering all the way over the cliff. Pretty much all of it was pointless. Here today - gone tomorrow political issues like a Bedroom Tax or DLA rules are not relevant when discussing the next 50, 100 or 200 years. This was small time politics being discussed with silly points scoring over any reasoned relevant debate. Salmond, Darling, BBC Scotland and Scotland as a whole should be ashamed of it.
As for Salmond's vision of an independent Scotland it seems to be some sort of rogue state on the edges of Europe with a reckless default to its name using someone else's currency and pleasing benefit receivers by sticking their fingers up at the English for the 3 months before all the money runs out. Presumably, after that, the bankrupt Scotland will blame it on all England for retaining the Malvinas.
I don't know what the result will be - despite all the logical arguments against I've always thought Scotland might vote Yes - but if I lived in Scotland tonight and had even half a brain I would be absolutely s
tting myself.covmutley said:
Haven't you heard? They have lots of lovely oil. Deficit? They are going to save up an oil fund?!!
Salmond is smart in the way he plays the oil cars saying its a bonus and why anyone would be against it is madness rich rich rich. However as it represents 15% of the Scottish annual budget it isn't a bonus (only if it comes in higher than forecast would that be the case if its inline its not a bonus if its behind how do you pay?). Ideally Scotland should be working to get to a position of all budget spend is excl oil and that way they can clear the debt built up and then use it to create a fund.
Its easy to seek it to a baying crowd though.
I'm still not sure as from what it sounds like it there is no certainty in what Salmond is proposing. He keeps trying to compare Scotland with Norway. Norway has had 40 years to invest in its infrastructure and to get its economy where it is right now. We would be starting from scratch and still trying to use the pound which wouldn't be ours. At the moment the UK economy may seem like a mess but it's recoverable. If Scotland got in this type of mess we wouldn't be able to recover the same way. In the socialist state that Salmond is preaching to us we would all have huge taxes to pay to sustain it and salaries wouldn't increase at the same rate to cover this while still using the same currency that the rest of the UK are. Prices in Scotland will rise considerably compared with the rest of the UK but your money will still have the same value.
Welshbeef said:
Salmond is smart in the way he plays the oil cars saying its a bonus and why anyone would be against it is madness rich rich rich.
However as it represents 15% of the Scottish annual budget it isn't a bonus (only if it comes in higher than forecast would that be the case if its inline its not a bonus if its behind how do you pay?). Ideally Scotland should be working to get to a position of all budget spend is excl oil and that way they can clear the debt built up and then use it to create a fund.
Darling should have been able to rip him to shreds on every single point but was unable to think on his feet.However as it represents 15% of the Scottish annual budget it isn't a bonus (only if it comes in higher than forecast would that be the case if its inline its not a bonus if its behind how do you pay?). Ideally Scotland should be working to get to a position of all budget spend is excl oil and that way they can clear the debt built up and then use it to create a fund.
No wonder he was such a piss poor Chancellor.
Can you imagine if it had been somebody with the debating skills of Tony Benn or even George Galloway?
Welshbeef said:
Saond totally sunk on the trident loss of jobs and its impact on the area - Darling destroyed him on it.
Not sure why Alex was talking party political questions in his cross examination. We have a middle to right leaning UK govt as such policy is generally reduce public spending and cut taxes, the last 13 years we had a labour govt which increased spending at such a rate we are now having to compensate for it. A case of jam today now we pay.
Lastly an interesting one the debt default - he made it clear if he took on liabilities its only fair to have some of he assets - the big issue with that is it is money which has now been spent on capital projects or new ships etc instead its in benefits pensions dole money and the fact we were not able to contract the spending inline with the contraction in tax revenues. So infact he already has the assets and they would go with the iScotland so there is no assets to give.
Its no different if I went out crazy on my credit cars having lots of holidays boozing lots pricy meals out etc (with a partner) then being told unless I give some of those assets then she walks with no debt... Um you've had the assets too and its all gone.
Nationalists seem to think that Scotland has been independent for years. Do they not realise that borrowed money was spent in Scotland? Do they think that the UK should have only spent that borrowed money in the rest of the UK? Do they think Scotland would have been OK without borrowing the money. Their position on not repaying the debt is a complete farce.Not sure why Alex was talking party political questions in his cross examination. We have a middle to right leaning UK govt as such policy is generally reduce public spending and cut taxes, the last 13 years we had a labour govt which increased spending at such a rate we are now having to compensate for it. A case of jam today now we pay.
Lastly an interesting one the debt default - he made it clear if he took on liabilities its only fair to have some of he assets - the big issue with that is it is money which has now been spent on capital projects or new ships etc instead its in benefits pensions dole money and the fact we were not able to contract the spending inline with the contraction in tax revenues. So infact he already has the assets and they would go with the iScotland so there is no assets to give.
Its no different if I went out crazy on my credit cars having lots of holidays boozing lots pricy meals out etc (with a partner) then being told unless I give some of those assets then she walks with no debt... Um you've had the assets too and its all gone.
I think the parts of the audience that were cheering Salmond for saying Darling had conceded use of the pound must be a little bit stupid....There was a lot of them too.
Jimboka said:
Fittster said:
Considering this is a major national interest how come Cameron and Clegg aren't stepping up to the plate?
It is most surprising. Cameron has most to gain from a yes vote, if he was self serving he'd be up there, I dare say wearing his Eton uniform & top hat to make Salmond explode ! Then Tories would walk the next election due to all those labour seats disappearing & we'd get the entertainment of Salmonds meltdown. win win
///ajd said:
Good points, it was very very poor. It is a bit of a worry, we are - as a Nation - on the edge of a momumentally idiotic leap into a billion pound folly, and some of the audience clearly looked stupid enough to go for it, cheering all the way over the cliff.
I loved the way Alex calculated the oil tax receipts - he said £1 trillion revenue so let's call that £200billioms in tax.... UK is going to be a 20% corp tax level soon Alex basically stated with that statement that oil companies are making 100% margins hence the £200billion tax. I'd have thought that oil companies were in the 8-10% territory lets call it 10% so the profits to be taxed would be £100billion hence a tax of £20billioms. Have I got this wrong?
HD Adam said:
Darling should have been able to rip him to shreds on every single point but was unable to think on his feet.
No wonder he was such a piss poor Chancellor.
Can you imagine if it had been somebody with the debating skills of Tony Benn or even George Galloway?
Like this superb piece of oratory from GG....No wonder he was such a piss poor Chancellor.
Can you imagine if it had been somebody with the debating skills of Tony Benn or even George Galloway?
https://audioboo.fm/boos/2281076-george-galloway-a...
Job creation question - um they already have this it was an odd question kind of like hey you do remember you received that devolved power in 1997 what does John Sweeny and your work and pensions MSP actually do if not this?
Job creation powers...
Training
Back to work schemes
Or tax breaks for an initial period to employers v
They will have delivered £10.5k income tax threshold £7.9k Employers NI threshold 1.8 million more people employed in private sector jobs so far, highest ever employment record, nearly under 6% unemployed - tell me any western country in the world with better or with a strong recovery trend to that position? Yes living standards have dropped but that is due to then being artificially high previously we've had a correction and once unemployment gets below x% salaries will start to increase accordingly.
Job creation powers...
Training
Back to work schemes
Or tax breaks for an initial period to employers v
They will have delivered £10.5k income tax threshold £7.9k Employers NI threshold 1.8 million more people employed in private sector jobs so far, highest ever employment record, nearly under 6% unemployed - tell me any western country in the world with better or with a strong recovery trend to that position? Yes living standards have dropped but that is due to then being artificially high previously we've had a correction and once unemployment gets below x% salaries will start to increase accordingly.
NoNeed said:
BrownBottle said:
Guardian/ICM poll 71% in favour of Salmond winning the debate.
That's good as in britain it's the underdog we love not the dominant winner, see tim henman, eddie the eagle oh and the Scottish football team for further details.NoNeed said:
BrownBottle said:
Guardian/ICM poll 71% in favour of Salmond winning the debate.
That's good as in britain it's the underdog we love not the dominant winner, see tim henman, eddie the eagle oh and the Scottish football team for further details.Started watching it on iPlayer and had to give up. The moving-out-from-behind-the-lectern thing pissed me off too.
Darling got played tonight - the point about '..which Plan B would be best...'? Seriously? NONE of them, that's why he's the man voting NO. Jesus wept. Salmond pounced on a the 'revelation' that Darling said they could use the pound - well of course that's an option sugartits - it's just a terrible, appalling one.
Why? You would have no say in the management of the currency you use. No seat at the table where monetary policies are set - they will be set in the best interests of rUK and rUK alone. Scotland will go from having a say in things to having no say. There will be no currency union, it is NOT in the interests of rUK to underwrite Scottish borrowing without political and financial union. That's the whole POINT of 'union'. If you want that, then the answer is actually to vote no! As for threatening - again - to renege on the debt......Jesus wept. It's funny how Salmond stated you '...can't be responsible for debt that's not yours...' - Scotland has arguably a greater responsibility for the debt than England as more is spent per head in Scotland that England. If there's been debts run up then Scotland has more than played its part in creating them and MUST take responsibility for repaying them. To not do so would crucify Scottish borrowing for decades to come. Also what was all that guff about a 'mandate'? You can have all the mandates you want, you're not getting a currency union. Next question.
As for the oil, it may have escaped Salmond's notice that the world is fast trying to move to renewables and alternative forms of energy (never mind that much of that is, at present, misguided). It's possible there are billions of barrels more to be extracted but a) by whom when the investment shrivels and Scotland can't afford to get to it and b) what happens as world demand changes and oil becomes an even dirtier word? What if other oil-producing nations turn on the taps more and the price falls (which we've actually seen happen just recently)?
This is a joke. If Scotland votes for independence based on this then fking good luck - you're on your own, don't come looking for a bail-out when the ship sinks.
Darling got played tonight - the point about '..which Plan B would be best...'? Seriously? NONE of them, that's why he's the man voting NO. Jesus wept. Salmond pounced on a the 'revelation' that Darling said they could use the pound - well of course that's an option sugartits - it's just a terrible, appalling one.
Why? You would have no say in the management of the currency you use. No seat at the table where monetary policies are set - they will be set in the best interests of rUK and rUK alone. Scotland will go from having a say in things to having no say. There will be no currency union, it is NOT in the interests of rUK to underwrite Scottish borrowing without political and financial union. That's the whole POINT of 'union'. If you want that, then the answer is actually to vote no! As for threatening - again - to renege on the debt......Jesus wept. It's funny how Salmond stated you '...can't be responsible for debt that's not yours...' - Scotland has arguably a greater responsibility for the debt than England as more is spent per head in Scotland that England. If there's been debts run up then Scotland has more than played its part in creating them and MUST take responsibility for repaying them. To not do so would crucify Scottish borrowing for decades to come. Also what was all that guff about a 'mandate'? You can have all the mandates you want, you're not getting a currency union. Next question.
As for the oil, it may have escaped Salmond's notice that the world is fast trying to move to renewables and alternative forms of energy (never mind that much of that is, at present, misguided). It's possible there are billions of barrels more to be extracted but a) by whom when the investment shrivels and Scotland can't afford to get to it and b) what happens as world demand changes and oil becomes an even dirtier word? What if other oil-producing nations turn on the taps more and the price falls (which we've actually seen happen just recently)?
This is a joke. If Scotland votes for independence based on this then f
king good luck - you're on your own, don't come looking for a bail-out when the ship sinks.Edited by Funk on Tuesday 26th August 00:03
BrownBottle said:
NoNeed said:
BrownBottle said:
Guardian/ICM poll 71% in favour of Salmond winning the debate.
That's good as in britain it's the underdog we love not the dominant winner, see tim henman, eddie the eagle oh and the Scottish football team for further details.The yes Scotland Facebook page makes for interesting reading. They seem to think darling saying they can peg against the £ is proof they will get a currency union, or is a currency union ( I can't work out what they think he said!).
I'm glad I don't have to vote on this. Maybe if I was a scot i would feel differently, but I think I would be so disappointed that the debate has been based on such lose ideas and tory hating.
I'm glad I don't have to vote on this. Maybe if I was a scot i would feel differently, but I think I would be so disappointed that the debate has been based on such lose ideas and tory hating.
BrownBottle said:
Guardian/ICM poll 71% in favour of Salmond winning the debate.
Interesting and less reported - the same group saw no move in the balance of voting intentions Guardian said:
Going in to the debate, this sample was more pro-independence than most polls of voters as a whole have suggested – splitting 44% yes to 46% no with 10% not sure. Over the course of the debate, there was little change in this balance. The don't knows dropped back two percentage points to eight, while both yes and no edged up one each to 45% and 47% respectively as a fraction of viewers made up their mind.
ICM pre-recruited a sample of 1,155 people who said they would be watching the debate live and who agreed to complete the survey immediately afterwards, which they were duly sent. All participants were recruited from ICM's own online panel plus those of two of the biggest suppliers of Scottish panel in the market research industry. The post-debate survey data is based on 505 completed interviews.
ICM pre-recruited a sample of 1,155 people who said they would be watching the debate live and who agreed to complete the survey immediately afterwards, which they were duly sent. All participants were recruited from ICM's own online panel plus those of two of the biggest suppliers of Scottish panel in the market research industry. The post-debate survey data is based on 505 completed interviews.
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