Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5

[Plasticspoon]

andymadmak said:

Yes, for example if you ask the SNP, there will be a currency union with rUK. Whereas if you ask rUK they say "oh no there won't be". Given that it would require both countries to agree to a currency union in order for a currency union to come into existence please can you explain why this is still even in doubt?

Well this is obviously being ignored and looks like it will be a real problem, no amount of "you will be in deep st if you do this" is changing anything.
I only wanted to comment on the divorce analogy as I do not have the capacity to understand all the implications while everyone else seems to know exactly what will happen, which changes depending on who you ask.
Everyone I talk to or listen too is so sure of what will happen, I am not.
If this is a divorce, it's going to be messy and happen in the middle of the street in front of all the neighbors.

[budgie smuggler]

NoNeed said:

http://www.bettertogether.net/blog/entry/snp-gover...

What about if they put the price up to match ours at £9k or whatever it is, then issue grants to their students to cover it?

[NoNeed]

budgie smuggler said:

NoNeed said:

http://www.bettertogether.net/blog/entry/snp-gover...

What about if they put the price up to match ours at £9k or whatever it is, then issue grants to their students to cover it?

They would have to issues grants to German, French and Spanish too and still exclude the English.

[S13_Alan]

andymadmak said:

Yes, for example if you ask the SNP, there will be a currency union with rUK. Whereas if you ask rUK they say "oh no there won't be". Given that it would require both countries to agree to a currency union in order for a currency union to come into existence please can you explain why this is still even in doubt?

I had to correct someone last night who wrote something like "I'm glad people are finally accepting that we can use the pound" and his response when I said, well that was never in question, but it's not the important part, showed 100% he had no idea what the idea of a currency union meant, or what the implication of using a currency without it means.

I did also go on to explain it, and also say this appears not to have been explained properly in the media anyway (or is largely ignored) and that Salmond waving any admission of 'being able to use the pound' around as some sort of victory wasn't really worth anything.

Now the guy was obviously not daft, he wrote well, wasn't insulting etc, but shows a big part of the problem with those who are just getting carried along with it and not thinking for themselves or seeking out answers/meaning to what they hear.

Pretty sure for most who read it though would have been a lalalalalalala fingers in ears reaction.

[NoNeed]

Plasticspoon said:

andymadmak said:

Yes, for example if you ask the SNP, there will be a currency union with rUK. Whereas if you ask rUK they say "oh no there won't be". Given that it would require both countries to agree to a currency union in order for a currency union to come into existence please can you explain why this is still even in doubt?

Well this is obviously being ignored and looks like it will be a real problem, no amount of "you will be in deep st if you do this" is changing anything.
I only wanted to comment on the divorce analogy as I do not have the capacity to understand all the implications while everyone else seems to know exactly what will happen, which changes depending on who you ask.
Everyone I talk to or listen too is so sure of what will happen, I am not.
If this is a divorce, it's going to be messy and happen in the middle of the street in front of all the neighbors.

I think the 2015 election will be very significant for negotiations as the leader of the conservatives has already signed an agreement to do whats best fro all parties. They will take the pragmatic view that we can make more money and grow our economy back to where it was, Labour I think will take the view that they are running off with our money and so be more stubborn in the negotiations.

[budgie smuggler]

NoNeed said:

budgie smuggler said:

NoNeed said:

http://www.bettertogether.net/blog/entry/snp-gover...

What about if they put the price up to match ours at £9k or whatever it is, then issue grants to their students to cover it?

They would have to issues grants to German, French and Spanish too and still exclude the English.

Are you saying that they would be forced to issue grants to other EU students, or that they would choose to do so?

[whoami]

S13_Alan said:

I had to correct someone last night who wrote something like "I'm glad people are finally accepting that we can use the pound" and his response when I said, well that was never in question, but it's not the important part, showed 100% he had no idea what the idea of a currency union meant, or what the implication of using a currency without it means.

I did also go on to explain it, and also say this appears not to have been explained properly in the media anyway (or is largely ignored) and that Salmond waving any admission of 'being able to use the pound' around as some sort of victory wasn't really worth anything.

Now the guy was obviously not daft, he wrote well, wasn't insulting etc, but shows a big part of the problem with those who are just getting carried along with it and not thinking for themselves or seeking out answers/meaning to what they hear.

Pretty sure for most who read it though would have been a lalalalalalala fingers in ears reaction.

The obvious danger of letting the great unwashed loose on issues of this magnitude and complexity.

Still, there's not enough of them to matter.

[steveatesh]

whoami said:

The obvious danger of letting the great unwashed loose on issues of this magnitude and complexity.

Still, there's not enough of them to matter.

I have to say its nt just the great unwashed that don't understand the difference between using the pound and a currency union. Some of my friends and colleagues also had to have it explained and they are by no means numpties.

This is one of the areas that has been very poorly argued by the BT group in my experience, and Salmond went unchallenged with his AhHa moment on the second fight last Monday.

To many (majority?) currency is merely the coins in their pocket, and not the complex balance of trust, economic factors and confidence that the coinage actually relies upon to work.

[Axionknight]

Edinburger said:

Really? Yet Scotland contributes more than it's population share to the UK Treasury. We get back in the devolved settlement plus our allocated share of UK spend less than we send to the Treasury and that has been the case for 33 years. It is the UK that is spending more than it earns.

Assuming agreement on a fair division of the assets Scotland's debt to GDP ratio is 74% and rUK's 89% (2016 projections PSND basis - Source London based NIESR). That is a 15% differential. The more important figures are the Maastriicht debt/GDP ratios Scotland 86%, rUK 102% - a 16% differential.

Tell us again about the SNP and their attitude towards national finances?

Yet by their own admission they run a defecit, so which is it?

Also you sound quite proud of this alleged 74% and 86% debt ratios - very commendable they are indeed, tell me, how much a year will that rise once iScotland is set up? You'll need to take into account pension costs, existing debt burdens, start up costs, possible future defecits ETC.....

Oh wait, you can't, because we don't have the answers to any of thse questions - not only that, you can't even tell me how much it will cost to service that debt, can you?

The UK as it stands may have fairly substantial debts, but the incumbents in power are doing their best to change that, albiet slowly I admit, a plan which has been praised by the IMF and has helped the UK become one of the fastest growing post recession nations in the world.

[Moonhawk]

steveatesh said:

This is one of the areas that has been very poorly argued by the BT group in my experience, and Salmond went unchallenged with his AhHa moment on the second fight last Monday.

I don't agree - the message couldn't be clearer IMO.

iScotland will not have a currency union with rUK and hence rUK will not be lender of last resort. This has been the line all along.

Yes iScotland can call whatever currency they want to use a "pound" should they so wish, rUK doesn't have the trademark on that - and they can even peg that "pound" to stirling (just like the Isle of Man do). However the bank of England won't underwrite or guarantee that currency - just as they don't for the Isle of Man.

I'm not sure exactly what victory Salmond thinks he has won here.......nobody has ever said iScotland can't call their currency "pounds".

[Axionknight]

Plasticspoon said:

Well this is obviously being ignored and looks like it will be a real problem, no amount of "you will be in deep st if you do this" is changing anything.
I only wanted to comment on the divorce analogy as I do not have the capacity to understand all the implications while everyone else seems to know exactly what will happen, which changes depending on who you ask.
Everyone I talk to or listen too is so sure of what will happen, I am not.
If this is a divorce, it's going to be messy and happen in the middle of the street in front of all the neighbors.

Whose fault is that? rUK's, who have simply stated they will do their best to protect the interests of rUK and its financial situation with regards to currecy, the central bank, LOLR etc, or iScotlands idiots like Salmond, Swinney et al who time and time again have lied about the future of an iScotland and what it would recieve from rUK?

Salmond: We will have a currency union with rUK, it makes sense.
Swinney; We've already spoken to the BOE about it too!
"rUK": We don't feel this is in our interests in the event of a yes vote, it won't be happening.
Salmond: Och, of course it will, its common sense, I haven't even thought of an alternative!
"rUK": Nah, sorry, we aren't willing to take the risk.
Salmond: BLUFF AND BLUSTER!

[Rick_1138]

My best mate's friend just sent him this link....Yes, this is my mates mate.....We all laughed.

Sun Paywall, but you just need to read the lines you get shown for free to get a laugh.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/n...

[Plasticspoon]

Axionknight said:

Whose fault is that? rUK's, who have simply stated they will do their best to protect the interests of rUK and its financial situation with regards to currecy, the central bank, LOLR etc, or iScotlands idiots like Salmond, Swinney et al who time and time again have lied about the future of an iScotland and what it would recieve from rUK?

Salmond: We will have a currency union with rUK, it makes sense.
Swinney; We've already spoken to the BOE about it too!
"rUK": We don't feel this is in our interests in the event of a yes vote, it won't be happening.
Salmond: Och, of course it will, its common sense, I haven't even thought of an alternative!
"rUK": Nah, sorry, we aren't willing to take the risk.
Salmond: BLUFF AND BLUSTER!

I am not sure why me taking an analogy a bit further and having a tongue in cheek comment about it has elicited this kind of reaction from you.
At this point, I am very suspect of the emotional content of the "facts" that are being told to me from both sides.
No amount of shouting and name calling will have an effect on me any more, not saying this has been directed at me but it is certainly "flying" at the moment.

[Moonhawk]

Edinburger said:

Really? Yet Scotland contributes more than it's population share to the UK Treasury. We get back in the devolved settlement plus our allocated share of UK spend less than we send to the Treasury and that has been the case for 33 years. It is the UK that is spending more than it earns.

Even if this were true - what was the case between 1707 and 1981?

If Scotland was running a deficit during this time - then surely paying in a bit more now is simply fair doos?

Is it really fair for scotland to have benefitted financially from the union for almost 300 years - then when the balance of payments appears to shift in its favour - turn round and say "screw you guys - i'm going home".

Seems rather childish.

[Rollin]

Axionknight said:

Plasticspoon said:

Well this is obviously being ignored and looks like it will be a real problem, no amount of "you will be in deep st if you do this" is changing anything.
I only wanted to comment on the divorce analogy as I do not have the capacity to understand all the implications while everyone else seems to know exactly what will happen, which changes depending on who you ask.
Everyone I talk to or listen too is so sure of what will happen, I am not.
If this is a divorce, it's going to be messy and happen in the middle of the street in front of all the neighbors.

Whose fault is that? rUK's, who have simply stated they will do their best to protect the interests of rUK and its financial situation with regards to currecy, the central bank, LOLR etc, or iScotlands idiots like Salmond, Swinney et al who time and time again have lied about the future of an iScotland and what it would recieve from rUK?

Salmond: We will have a currency union with rUK, it makes sense.
Swinney; We've already spoken to the BOE about it too!
"rUK": We don't feel this is in our interests in the event of a yes vote, it won't be happening.
Salmond: Och, of course it will, its common sense, I haven't even thought of an alternative!
"rUK": Nah, sorry, we aren't willing to take the risk.
Salmond: BLUFF AND BLUSTER!

I really don't understand why anyone would admire Salmond for his attitude. Is this what nats expect of their politicians? How can anyone not see that his stance on the currency union is utterly stupid.

[Big Rod]

Murphy ruffles feathers again and gets physically assaulted purely for voicing his opinion, (or daring to set foot in Kirkcaldy!)

Sorry for the DR link...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-...

[jamiebae]

Dear Mr Salmon,

If it is the 'Sovereign will of the Scottish people' that they become an independent nation, but as also seems clear the residents of the Shetland Islands wish to remain in the UK how does this affect your projections? Obviously there is no way that the newly democratic and free Scotland sould subjugate the population of the Shetlands in the same way as the blue, red and yellow Tories have suppressed Scotland.

Therefore, the puffin loving cold people in the North Atlantic would like to stay in the UK, and keep their share of the mineral rights, oil, gas and renewable energy. I assume this is a foregone conclusion in terms of the SNP's acceptance, but you may want to re-run your numbers.

Big love,

People in thick woolly jumpers who smell faintly of fish.

[Chlamydia]

Big Rod said:

Murphy ruffles feathers again and gets physically assaulted purely for voicing his opinion, (or daring to set foot in Kirkcaldy!)

Sorry for the DR link...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-...

Article said:

"She stepped in when this guy started picking a fight with a photographer for being English."

That bit can't be correct surely as we're constantly being told that they aren't anti-English?

[Piersman2]

Big Rod said:

Murphy ruffles feathers again and gets physically assaulted purely for voicing his opinion, (or daring to set foot in Kirkcaldy!)

Sorry for the DR link...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-...

'“She stepped in when this guy started picking a fight with a photographer for being English...'

But remember everyone, it's not an anti-english thing, it's all about the scottish national identity.

[Axionknight]

Plasticspoon said:

I am not sure why me taking an analogy a bit further and having a tongue in cheek comment about it has elicited this kind of reaction from you.
At this point, I am very suspect of the emotional content of the "facts" that are being told to me from both sides.
No amount of shouting and name calling will have an effect on me any more, not saying this has been directed at me but it is certainly "flying" at the moment.

Tory sympathiser!