Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 5
Discussion
Genuine question this, so be gentle but if (and I would stress if only) Scotland did vote in favour of a independence and effectively leave the Union, could the remaining Union members. "ask" those Scots who live/work here to return home ? Surely they wouldn't have any rights to remain in the UK or the EU ? Certainly would be a way to reduce our unemployment figures, but several million Scots returning home on masse would devastate that Country ?
Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
Mr Daytona said:
Genuine question this, so be gentle but if (and I would stress if only) Scotland did vote in favour of a independence and effectively leave the Union, could the remaining Union members. "ask" those Scots who live/work here to return home ? Surely they wouldn't have any rights to remain in the UK or the EU ? Certainly would be a way to reduce our unemployment figures, but several million Scots returning home on masse would devastate that Country ?
Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
Why? Sounds a bit dim to me ( and xenophobic )Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
England is my home.
I pay a s
t load of tax here.Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
HD Adam said:
Do any of you seriously expect that the day after a Yes vote, Westminster cuts off the Barnett Formula and starts to negotiate what's best for the rUK at the expense of Scotland?
Seriously?
Well given SNP and all Prp Yes parties have declared that given no CU then they walk from the share of the debt - who in their right mind would carry on funding an overspending budget? Good money after bad. Seriously?
So I raise the question a third time what will Scotland cut to cover the £10billion deficit? Any ideas at all? Just one example will be a good start.
Over to you - or is it "as you were"
Troubleatmill said:
Why? Sounds a bit dim to me ( and xenophobic )
England is my home.
I pay a st load of tax here.
Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
We get freedom of movement within the EU, but iScotland would be a foreign country that has no such deal. It is just something else that will have to be negotiated England is my home.
I pay a s
t load of tax here.Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
Willy Nilly said:
Troubleatmill said:
Why? Sounds a bit dim to me ( and xenophobic )
England is my home.
I pay a st load of tax here.
Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
We get freedom of movement within the EU, but iScotland would be a foreign country that has no such deal. It is just something else that will have to be negotiated England is my home.
I pay a s
t load of tax here.Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
He might have a problem with my more direct answer
but I won't be going - especially as I don't even get a vote on it. ( and Independence is a rather silly idea )Willy Nilly said:
Troubleatmill said:
Why? Sounds a bit dim to me ( and xenophobic )
England is my home.
I pay a st load of tax here.
Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
We get freedom of movement within the EU, but iScotland would be a foreign country that has no such deal. It is just something else that will have to be negotiated England is my home.
I pay a s
t load of tax here.Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
Mr Daytona said:
Genuine question this, so be gentle but if (and I would stress if only) Scotland did vote in favour of a independence and effectively leave the Union, could the remaining Union members. "ask" those Scots who live/work here to return home ? Surely they wouldn't have any rights to remain in the UK or the EU ? Certainly would be a way to reduce our unemployment figures, but several million Scots returning home on masse would devastate that Country ?
Who is Scottish?Think about that, as it's a difficult question to answer.
There's currently no firm decision about how it will work, but what seems to be coming out of the murky cloud of discussion is that everyone that is a UK citizen who lives in Scotland will be eligible for a Scottish passport on independence. Anyone from the UK who considers themselves Scottish will also be able to apply for a Scottish passport on independence.
It remains to be seen whether rUK would allow those people to retain their UK citizenship however, and there is a bit of an indication that it might be "either/or" rather than the YeSNP's "you can have both!".
Mr Daytona said:
Genuine question this, so be gentle but if (and I would stress if only) Scotland did vote in favour of a independence and effectively leave the Union, could the remaining Union members. "ask" those Scots who live/work here to return home ? Surely they wouldn't have any rights to remain in the UK or the EU ? Certainly would be a way to reduce our unemployment figures, but several million Scots returning home on masse would devastate that Country ?
Are you only planning to deport unemployed Scots from England then, or are you getting rid of them all?Munter said:
Willy Nilly said:
Troubleatmill said:
Why? Sounds a bit dim to me ( and xenophobic )
England is my home.
I pay a st load of tax here.
Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
We get freedom of movement within the EU, but iScotland would be a foreign country that has no such deal. It is just something else that will have to be negotiated England is my home.
I pay a s
t load of tax here.Not sure sending me out of England is going to solve unemployment.
People move because they want to work.
And what about the kids?
Troubleatmill said:
But my passport say UK. Mr Daytona was asking if I could be kicked out of England. I've lived here half my life.
He might have a problem with my more direct answer but I won't be going - especially as I don't even get a vote on it. ( and Independence is a rather silly idea )
exactly He might have a problem with my more direct answer
but I won't be going - especially as I don't even get a vote on it. ( and Independence is a rather silly idea )will we be forced to wear saltires on stripy shirts in the Mr Daytona's rUK to denote our ethnic origins.
anyways, it'll be a no...
probably
bodysnatcher said:
Troubleatmill said:
But my passport say UK. Mr Daytona was asking if I could be kicked out of England. I've lived here half my life.
He might have a problem with my more direct answer but I won't be going - especially as I don't even get a vote on it. ( and Independence is a rather silly idea )
exactly He might have a problem with my more direct answer
but I won't be going - especially as I don't even get a vote on it. ( and Independence is a rather silly idea )will we be forced to wear saltires on stripy shirts in the Mr Daytona's rUK to denote our ethnic origins.
anyways, it'll be a no...
probably
No, I wouldn't have trouble with a direct answer as you so eloquently put it, but I would expect a more enlightened and informative one.
To expand somewhat on my hypothetical question (and question it was, not a hope) if Scotland was no longer part of the Union, then surely those born in Scotland - even if they have a UK passport - wouldn't be entitled to remain in the UK as they would effectively be a foreign national, Scotland itself voting to be that foreign Country.
Nor - unless they joined the EU which has already been declared a none starter - would they be entitled to remain here as members of the EU for the reason I've previously alluded to.
I suspect the amount of tax you may or may not pay would be pretty irrelevant if you, as someone born in a now foreign country, wanted to remain here.
To expand somewhat on my hypothetical question (and question it was, not a hope) if Scotland was no longer part of the Union, then surely those born in Scotland - even if they have a UK passport - wouldn't be entitled to remain in the UK as they would effectively be a foreign national, Scotland itself voting to be that foreign Country.
Nor - unless they joined the EU which has already been declared a none starter - would they be entitled to remain here as members of the EU for the reason I've previously alluded to.
I suspect the amount of tax you may or may not pay would be pretty irrelevant if you, as someone born in a now foreign country, wanted to remain here.
From earlier on passports/citizenship:
The SNP's White Paper (being a bit rubbish as per usual) says that any British Citizens "habitually resident" in Scotland at the time of independence will be regarded as Scottish nationals. "Scottish-born" British citizens who live elsewhere can apply for citizenship (which would say exclude my wife, who is Scottish but was born in Yorkshire). Others can apply according to "clear criteria" but none are given (surprise, surprise).
What that leaves out is what is the situation for those who want dual British and Scottish Citizenship. Given that Scotland is likely to start outwith the EU, this will be everyone who has a brain - even, I suspect, Fluff who hates the UK passport - as it will give the bearer the right to work anywhere in the EU.
The decision over Scottish citizens retaining British citizenship is really for the rUK government. I don't think there is a definitive answer on this one and it will probably form part of the negotiation. The most pragmatic thing would be for the rUK to allow for those born before independence to keep their British citizenship. Those born after would not be entitled to it (although there might even be wriggle room here).
However, Theresa May when Home Secretary clearly reserved the right to remove citizenship from Scots. That is a huge threat (and one that has had relatively little airtime) but I suspect is empty unless the SNP are complete tts in the negotiations.There is some detail here . It would be down to both parties to agree policy, as it is a very grey area.
Personally I regard myself as British - I'll do whatever I have to do to remain British and retain a British passport.
In the unlikely event of independence happening, there will be a period of months before separation formally takes place. A large number of people I suspect might suddenly obtain rUK home addresses during this period.
AstonZagato said:
Leithen said:
AstonZagato said:
DanL said:
Tired of the sniping from both sides now, frankly - the vote can't come soon enough. I'm hoping for a yes, as I'd like to see how it all pans out.
I'm a little curious about nationality and passports though. I presume after the split, anyone in the UK could have dual nationality? Has anyone discussed this side of things, and can someone point me in the direction of the discussion if so?
I think that passports/nationality are a bit vague.I'm a little curious about nationality and passports though. I presume after the split, anyone in the UK could have dual nationality? Has anyone discussed this side of things, and can someone point me in the direction of the discussion if so?
The SNP's White Paper (being a bit rubbish as per usual) says that any British Citizens "habitually resident" in Scotland at the time of independence will be regarded as Scottish nationals. "Scottish-born" British citizens who live elsewhere can apply for citizenship (which would say exclude my wife, who is Scottish but was born in Yorkshire). Others can apply according to "clear criteria" but none are given (surprise, surprise).
What that leaves out is what is the situation for those who want dual British and Scottish Citizenship. Given that Scotland is likely to start outwith the EU, this will be everyone who has a brain - even, I suspect, Fluff who hates the UK passport - as it will give the bearer the right to work anywhere in the EU.
The decision over Scottish citizens retaining British citizenship is really for the rUK government. I don't think there is a definitive answer on this one and it will probably form part of the negotiation. The most pragmatic thing would be for the rUK to allow for those born before independence to keep their British citizenship. Those born after would not be entitled to it (although there might even be wriggle room here).
However, Theresa May when Home Secretary clearly reserved the right to remove citizenship from Scots. That is a huge threat (and one that has had relatively little airtime) but I suspect is empty unless the SNP are complete t
ts in the negotiations.Personally I regard myself as British - I'll do whatever I have to do to remain British and retain a British passport.
In the unlikely event of independence happening, there will be a period of months before separation formally takes place. A large number of people I suspect might suddenly obtain rUK home addresses during this period.
UK Govt Paper said:
The right of states to determine who their nationals are is a principle of public international law. If Scotland became an independent state the Scottish Government would have to decide who could become, or would be required to become, a Scottish citizen. They would have to determine whether individuals living in Scotland, born in Scotland or who had a connection to Scotland would be able to apply for Scottish citizenship, whether there would be a requirement to become a Scottish citizen and whether citizenship of an independent Scottish state would be imposed. This would be a difficult decision with profound implications for individuals and their families; not only those alive at the time of independence but also future generations. There are no clear precedents to guide an independent Scottish state in this area.
The current Scottish Government has proposed that all British citizens habitually resident in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens, and that Scottish-born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens. This is a very wide model of citizenship. It could lead to people living in Scotland, for example migrants from other parts of the UK, being assumed to be Scottish citizens, whether or not they would choose to be.
There would also be questions for British citizens living in an independent Scottish state. The UK has historically been tolerant of plural nationalities, and therefore it is likely that it would be possible for an individual to hold both British and independent Scottish citizenships. However, under current rules, any British citizens living outside the UK cannot pass their British nationality on more than one generation. In other words, the children of British citizens living in an independent Scottish state would, under current rules, be British citizens but their children and subsequent generations would not be. This could raise complex and difficult issues for individuals and families.
The government of the continuing UK would also need to consider whether all British citizens living in Scotland could retain their British citizenship upon independence. This cannot be guaranteed and could be dependent on any residence requirements or proof of affinity to the continuing UK. It is not possible to predict now what the decision of a future government of the continuing UK might be in this area.
In the event of a vote for independence, the governments of the continuing UK and an independent Scottish state would need to negotiate whether, and if so how, any of the benefits associated with British citizenship would continue to apply to British citizens living in an independent Scottish state. The practical benefits of citizenship include a passport and consular support. An independent Scottish state would need to issue its own passports, and establish the infrastructure to do so. It would also need to determine what consular services its citizens would be entitled to abroad. In addition, an independent Scottish state would not automatically inherit the visa waiver agreements which entitle UK passport holders to travel to many countries without a visa. These are bilateral agreements between the UK and other countries and, if an independent Scottish state wished to conclude similar agreements, these would have to be negotiated with the other states.
The current Scottish Government has proposed that all British citizens habitually resident in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens, and that Scottish-born British citizens currently living outside of Scotland will also be considered Scottish citizens. This is a very wide model of citizenship. It could lead to people living in Scotland, for example migrants from other parts of the UK, being assumed to be Scottish citizens, whether or not they would choose to be.
There would also be questions for British citizens living in an independent Scottish state. The UK has historically been tolerant of plural nationalities, and therefore it is likely that it would be possible for an individual to hold both British and independent Scottish citizenships. However, under current rules, any British citizens living outside the UK cannot pass their British nationality on more than one generation. In other words, the children of British citizens living in an independent Scottish state would, under current rules, be British citizens but their children and subsequent generations would not be. This could raise complex and difficult issues for individuals and families.
The government of the continuing UK would also need to consider whether all British citizens living in Scotland could retain their British citizenship upon independence. This cannot be guaranteed and could be dependent on any residence requirements or proof of affinity to the continuing UK. It is not possible to predict now what the decision of a future government of the continuing UK might be in this area.
In the event of a vote for independence, the governments of the continuing UK and an independent Scottish state would need to negotiate whether, and if so how, any of the benefits associated with British citizenship would continue to apply to British citizens living in an independent Scottish state. The practical benefits of citizenship include a passport and consular support. An independent Scottish state would need to issue its own passports, and establish the infrastructure to do so. It would also need to determine what consular services its citizens would be entitled to abroad. In addition, an independent Scottish state would not automatically inherit the visa waiver agreements which entitle UK passport holders to travel to many countries without a visa. These are bilateral agreements between the UK and other countries and, if an independent Scottish state wished to conclude similar agreements, these would have to be negotiated with the other states.
Troubleatmill said:
My wife is English... I'm curious at what Mr Daytona would expect her to do.
And what about the kids?
that too, son born in Scotland, lived there for 6 months of his 28 years but regards himself as a ScotAnd what about the kids?
daughter of 27 born in England of an English mother, believes herself 100% English (poor deluded child)
Mr Daytona said:
Genuine question this, so be gentle but if (and I would stress if only) Scotland did vote in favour of a independence and effectively leave the Union, could the remaining Union members. "ask" those Scots who live/work here to return home ? Surely they wouldn't have any rights to remain in the UK or the EU ? Certainly would be a way to reduce our unemployment figures, but several million Scots returning home on masse would devastate that Country ?
Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
No they'd be 100% welcome to stay.Suspect this might have been answered before, but it does run to a fair few pages. Lol. For the record though, hope Scotland votes a resounding NO. We have far too much history together and I think we are stronger for the Union.
The escaping hoards would be welcome to relocate to E,W&NI too.
Despite the bitterness of the SNP and their supporters, Scotland like Ireland will never be a foreign country. I cannot imagine the circumstances whereby Scots would be refused entry to rUK and would expect a freedom of movement deal to be agreed. The EU would not in my opinion object, as it would have no impact on any other country; their border procedures would stay the same as now. Special arrangements would have to be agreed by the EU to accommodate Scotland during its transition to EU membership. This will I think, not give an iScotland all the presumed benefits of EU membership, but will minimise trade and travel disruptions. The real penalty iScotland will pay, is having idiots/fantasists to rule them and the bks they will make of the economy.
ks they will make of the economy.As far as I am concerned, anyone who currently has UK citizenship is welcome to retain it, wherever they live. What I do perhaps have an issue with is people retaining that and taking new Scottish citizenship as well. It should be one or the other.
As for the future, although I do not think there is a hope in hell of a currency union or a union on much else Scotland appears to want I do think, unless Scotland goes completely bonkers, a deal will be done on Scotland becoming part of the CTA (Common Travel Area) similar to what we already have with RoI.
As for the future, although I do not think there is a hope in hell of a currency union or a union on much else Scotland appears to want I do think, unless Scotland goes completely bonkers, a deal will be done on Scotland becoming part of the CTA (Common Travel Area) similar to what we already have with RoI.
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