What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you're going to attempt to derail a conversation...
It wasn't a derail. It was pointing out that you were misrepresenting reality.The schools are English speaking, and it is the majority of pupils attending around 1 in 9 of them who's first language is not English. That is not the same as saying 1 in 9 schools is not English speaking.
It is misinformation like this, sometimes done deliberately, that fuels parties such as UKIP.
This isn't to diminuish the very significant issues schools with a large proportion of whose children aren't from English speaking backgrounds encounter but there really is a significant distinction to be made. If it is the case that there are either none or very few schools where the school's first language is not English it is at best disappointing that some intend for it to be inferred that there are many. As above, however, I'm looking for clarification and am not seeking to score points. I just want to understand what is being claimed before forming an opinion.
scenario8 said:
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you're going to attempt to derail a conversation...
It wasn't a derail. It was pointing out that you were misrepresenting reality.The schools are English speaking, and it is the majority of pupils attending around 1 in 9 of them who's first language is not English. That is not the same as saying 1 in 9 schools is not English speaking.
It is misinformation like this, sometimes done deliberately, that fuels parties such as UKIP.
This isn't to diminuish the very significant issues schools with a large proportion of whose children aren't from English speaking backgrounds encounter but there really is a significant distinction to be made. If it is the case that there are either none or very few schools where the school's first language is not English it is at best disappointing that some intend for it to be inferred that there are many. As above, however, I'm looking for clarification and am not seeking to score points. I just want to understand what is being claimed before forming an opinion.
WinstonWolf said:
scenario8 said:
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you're going to attempt to derail a conversation...
It wasn't a derail. It was pointing out that you were misrepresenting reality.The schools are English speaking, and it is the majority of pupils attending around 1 in 9 of them who's first language is not English. That is not the same as saying 1 in 9 schools is not English speaking.
It is misinformation like this, sometimes done deliberately, that fuels parties such as UKIP.
This isn't to diminuish the very significant issues schools with a large proportion of whose children aren't from English speaking backgrounds encounter but there really is a significant distinction to be made. If it is the case that there are either none or very few schools where the school's first language is not English it is at best disappointing that some intend for it to be inferred that there are many. As above, however, I'm looking for clarification and am not seeking to score points. I just want to understand what is being claimed before forming an opinion.
WinstonWolf said:
I'm aware of many schools where English is now the second language.
By that you mean the children contained within the school(s) do not consider English as their first language - or at least their parents don't?That is a very different thing to the school itself using English as a second (or third or fourth) language. Clarifying this point has been my intention for two pages now.
Many schools experience great difficulties as a consequence of the number of children they teach for whom English is either not their parents' first languages or the language primarily used at home. Big problems. Problems I am prepared to have an opinion about. Your original post that mentioned the broad topic of English/non-English speaking schools seemed to imply there are schools where the school doesn't use English as its first language. If such schools exist (and you claim to know of many) that is a very different thing and one I don't embrace readily.
In a further attempt at clarity, do schools exist (many of them indeed) where English is not the first language of the school? (Outside of International schools). Are there many of them?
WinstonWolf said:
Apparently, and even though I live here I'm surprised by this, 1/3 children in peterborough do not speak English as a primary language.
i suspect that much of modernity surprises you, what you need to meditate on this evening is why you a) care what language people choose to use, b) why it should disadvantage anyone being bilingual c) whether you'd like welsh language schools to be stopped as they are really the only non English schools by policy.WinstonWolf said:
That is not misrepresenting reality, it *is* reality.
Once again, for clarity; that the pupils don't speak English at home, does not mean they cannot speak English or that they do so at school.Which means, your claim that you know 'many' non-English speaking schools, is misleading.
10 Pence Short said:
NicD said:
I can't keep track,
are the usual suspects now agreeing there is a serious immigration problem or what?
No.are the usual suspects now agreeing there is a serious immigration problem or what?
Immigration causes some problems. These problems are localised, transient, and not insurmountable.
How many here are actually suffering because of immigration? If your only problem is that you feel uncomfortable if you pass through an urban area that has many immigrants or descendants of immigrants in it, why does that bother you?
I was in Sparkhill in Birmingham the other day. It's a vibrant and cheerful place. Young women wearing hijabs and designer shades driving in convertibles with the tops down. Lots of shops and restaurants. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, with assorted temples and mosques. By contrast, Small Heath just down the road is grotty. Mostly East Africans at present, Small Heath being a long established grotty part of Brum where people go soon after they get off the boat (my parents lived there after arriving from Dublin in the 50s, it's where I was born, and it was grotty and poor then as it is grotty and poor now).
Go to some parts of London and other cities and you will find pressures on public services, tensions between groups, and problems of lack of integration. Lots of classic problems associated with poverty such as bad housing and crime. Integration issues apart, these problems are not uniquely related to migrancy, or insurmountable given political will and resources.
Meanwhile, all of this cultural stuff now seems to be put second to the argument about British jobs for Brits (whatever Brits are taken to be).
Breadvan72 said:
10 Pence Short said:
NicD said:
I can't keep track,
are the usual suspects now agreeing there is a serious immigration problem or what?
No.are the usual suspects now agreeing there is a serious immigration problem or what?
Immigration causes some problems. These problems are localised, transient, and not insurmountable.
How many here are actually suffering because of immigration? If your only problem is that you feel uncomfortable if you pass through an urban area that has many immigrants or descendants of immigrants in it, why does that bother you?
I was in Sparkhill in Birmingham the other day. It's a vibrant and cheerful place. Young women wearing hijabs and designer shades driving in convertibles with the tops down. Lots of shops and restaurants. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, with assorted temples and mosques. By contrast, Small Heath just down the road is grotty. Mostly East Africans at present, Small Heath being a long established grotty part of Brum where people go soon after they get off the boat (my parents lived there after arriving from Dublin in the 50s, it's where I was born, and it was grotty and poor then as it is grotty and poor now).
Go to some parts of London and other cities and you will find pressures on public services, tensions between groups, and problems of lack of integration. Lots of classic problems associated with poverty such as bad housing and crime. Integration issues apart, these problems are not uniquely related to migrancy, or insurmountable given political will and resources.
Meanwhile, all of this cultural stuff now seems to be put second to the argument about British jobs for Brits (whatever Brits are taken to be).
Zod said:
That's a bit of a jump. Just because you work for a party doesn't mean you'll automatically vote for them. Does it? Or is there some law I've missed?
FredClogs said:
WinstonWolf said:
Apparently, and even though I live here I'm surprised by this, 1/3 children in peterborough do not speak English as a primary language.
i suspect that much of modernity surprises you, what you need to meditate on this evening is why you a) care what language people choose to use, b) why it should disadvantage anyone being bilingual c) whether you'd like welsh language schools to be stopped as they are really the only non English schools by policy.scenario8 said:
WinstonWolf said:
scenario8 said:
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you're going to attempt to derail a conversation...
It wasn't a derail. It was pointing out that you were misrepresenting reality.The schools are English speaking, and it is the majority of pupils attending around 1 in 9 of them who's first language is not English. That is not the same as saying 1 in 9 schools is not English speaking.
It is misinformation like this, sometimes done deliberately, that fuels parties such as UKIP.
This isn't to diminuish the very significant issues schools with a large proportion of whose children aren't from English speaking backgrounds encounter but there really is a significant distinction to be made. If it is the case that there are either none or very few schools where the school's first language is not English it is at best disappointing that some intend for it to be inferred that there are many. As above, however, I'm looking for clarification and am not seeking to score points. I just want to understand what is being claimed before forming an opinion.
WinstonWolf said:
I'm aware of many schools where English is now the second language.
By that you mean the children contained within the school(s) do not consider English as their first language - or at least their parents don't?That is a very different thing to the school itself using English as a second (or third or fourth) language. Clarifying this point has been my intention for two pages now.
Many schools experience great difficulties as a consequence of the number of children they teach for whom English is either not their parents' first languages or the language primarily used at home. Big problems. Problems I am prepared to have an opinion about. Your original post that mentioned the broad topic of English/non-English speaking schools seemed to imply there are schools where the school doesn't use English as its first language. If such schools exist (and you claim to know of many) that is a very different thing and one I don't embrace readily.
In a further attempt at clarity, do schools exist (many of them indeed) where English is not the first language of the school? (Outside of International schools). Are there many of them?
Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
WinstonWolf said:
Let's not get bogged down in semantics, I have been exceptionally clear in my explanation, I do not believe you need any further clarification.
Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
Are you suggesting that, to attend a State school, a child's first language (irrespective of their ability to speak it) should be English?Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
Let's not get bogged down in semantics, I have been exceptionally clear in my explanation, I do not believe you need any further clarification.
Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
Are you suggesting that, to attend a State school, a child's first language (irrespective of their ability to speak it) should be English?Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
Continuing the putting words in people's mouths theme, Are you suggesting that providing remedial English improves science?
WinstonWolf said:
scenario8 said:
WinstonWolf said:
scenario8 said:
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
If you're going to attempt to derail a conversation...
It wasn't a derail. It was pointing out that you were misrepresenting reality.The schools are English speaking, and it is the majority of pupils attending around 1 in 9 of them who's first language is not English. That is not the same as saying 1 in 9 schools is not English speaking.
It is misinformation like this, sometimes done deliberately, that fuels parties such as UKIP.
This isn't to diminuish the very significant issues schools with a large proportion of whose children aren't from English speaking backgrounds encounter but there really is a significant distinction to be made. If it is the case that there are either none or very few schools where the school's first language is not English it is at best disappointing that some intend for it to be inferred that there are many. As above, however, I'm looking for clarification and am not seeking to score points. I just want to understand what is being claimed before forming an opinion.
WinstonWolf said:
I'm aware of many schools where English is now the second language.
By that you mean the children contained within the school(s) do not consider English as their first language - or at least their parents don't?That is a very different thing to the school itself using English as a second (or third or fourth) language. Clarifying this point has been my intention for two pages now.
Many schools experience great difficulties as a consequence of the number of children they teach for whom English is either not their parents' first languages or the language primarily used at home. Big problems. Problems I am prepared to have an opinion about. Your original post that mentioned the broad topic of English/non-English speaking schools seemed to imply there are schools where the school doesn't use English as its first language. If such schools exist (and you claim to know of many) that is a very different thing and one I don't embrace readily.
In a further attempt at clarity, do schools exist (many of them indeed) where English is not the first language of the school? (Outside of International schools). Are there many of them?
Do you think a school will provide a better education when time that could be spent on science or maths is taken up with remedial language skills? Personally I don't think it's a benefit to anyone...
To answer your question, I fully understand there are very real problems faced by schools with a large proportion of attending children being from non-English speaking backgrounds. (It should be added that many children from non-English backgrounds do actually speak very good English at home).
I only entered this debate when I saw your post that seemed to claim many schools themselves weren't operating with English as a first language. That bothered me greatly so I wanted clarification as to whether that was what you meant (supported as fact) or whether it was an error of language that was either intended to mislead (which at best would be naughty of you) or an honest misinference in my part (hence seeking clarity).
For goodness sake, it's possible on the subject of difficulties in education resulting from integration of children from non-English backgrounds I sympathise with elements of your views. I don't know why you appeared to assume my attempts at seeking clarity were in some way veiled opposition to your views.
WinstonWolf said:
Apparently, and even though I live here I'm surprised by this, 1/3 children in peterborough do not speak English as a primary language.
Like last time, I may not get an answer to this but I'll ask anyway......These children in Peterborough, do you know if they're capable of speaking English?
10 Pence Short said:
WinstonWolf said:
That is not misrepresenting reality, it *is* reality.
Once again, for clarity; that the pupils don't speak English at home, does not mean they cannot speak English or that they do so at school.Which means, your claim that you know 'many' non-English speaking schools, is misleading.
Edit to add: And after reading WW's reply; 10PS; see?
Edited by league67 on Tuesday 22 April 20:41
10 Pence Short said:
So what precisely are you saying? I ask, because it sounds like you made an inaccurate soundbite, then ran from there on a false premise.
If kids can speak English at school and whatever else at home, why would you have a problem with it?
Oh please If kids can speak English at school and whatever else at home, why would you have a problem with it?
The majority can't speak English when they arrive at school. Would you like me to write it out in crayons or can you really not see the problem here?
I'll credit you with some intelligence and assume you're simply being intentionally obtuse...
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