What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.

[WinstonWolf]

Breadvan72 said:

Or they lack either the honesty to themselves or the courage among others to say why.

Or it's simply not worth the bother... Look at the vitriol spewed out in the last few pages. Is that really conducive to debate?

Somewhat understandably the mods don't like it when you react in kind, it's far easier to have some enjoyable banter on other threads instead.

I'll make my point at the ballot box when the time comes.

[dandarez]

Zod said:

Breadvan72 said:

Zod, the stout English patriots seem a bit nervous discussing why they are bothered by cultural differences and lack of linguistic, ahem, purity. Of course we need a lingua franca that we use in business and daily life, and that happens to be English, and of course children should be able to use English, and adults who live here ought to make an effort and learn English too. Most Europeans that you bump into in daily street life do, some older Asians do not; but middle aged and elderly Asian women not speaking English is hardly a huge societal problem (even though we probably all agree that a culture that keeps them veiled and ignorant is a bad culture, to be combatted though education). Who cares what language people speak at home or when hanging out with each other in a cafe? Parts of London are very Francophone these days. Who cares?

Neither you, nor I, but I think some people here do care, even though they are not sure why.

Ooh, we're a bit nervous now are we?

Not at all, it's thanks to you anti-kipps (or should that be anti-dotes sounds like dopes ) that this thread is being kept near the top. Thanks!

Anyway, 'course you don't care.

Does it matter, who knows?
Do I care? Sometimes, (see below), sometimes not.

Was in A&E last month in the early hrs. Naturally staffed by lots of those who can't speak the lingo but granted many do attempt it. Led down to have scan by well-meaning, non-English speaking fellow. He'd got it all wrong as I found out after the long walk, It wasn't me he needed, he got the names totally mixed up, and I was immediately apologised to by a doctor, so I made the walk back.

Good job he hadn't led me to the operating theatre, eh?
Ok, that wouldn't have happened I know.
Or do I?

Still, who cares? Nothing can go wrong. Keep the onslaught coming, keep this thread near the top.

As a business acquaintance I delivered artwork to this morning, who is pondering a vote changing habit of a lifetime, said to me:
'The UKIP bashing is intensifying isn't it Dan?'
'Yes, but it was entirely expected.'
'Surely Dan sensible people will wonder why?'

'No Phil, 'intelligent' people will wonder why.'

Edited by dandarez on Wednesday 23 April 15:27

[Zod]

I note that no UKIP supporter or sympathiser (that's for Guam) has answered my question as to why there was a debate going on last night about schools filled with non-native English speaking children.

[anonymous-user]

Good luck with that, Zod, but I wouldn't wait up.

Only Guam has responded to my invitation to talk about those posters. UKIP: ducking the awkward questions since (whenever it was).

Do you share my amusement at the notion that the position of a chatter thread in a sub-forum of a car website is somehow meaningful to national politics?

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 16:34

[Zod]

Actually, I think it is relevant, because there I suspect that a larger slice of the PH membership has UKIP tendencies than the population as a whole and it is important to understand what motivates them. Apart from a general dissatisfaction with politics, politicians and life as a whole, I'm struggling to see anything.

[s2art]

Breadvan72 said:

Good luck with that, Zod, but I wouldn't wait up.

Only Guam has responded to my invitation to talk about those posters. UKIP: ducking the awkward questions since (whenever it was).

Do you share my amusement at the notion that the position of a chatter thread in a sub-forum of a car website is somehow meaningful to national politics?

Edited by Breadvan72 on Wednesday 23 April 16:34

RE posters. Took a look, seem a bit crude but are absolutely clear about getting their message across. It will probably work. Cant see any racism. Looks like they are trying to broaden their appeal to the tradition working class Labour voters.

[anonymous-user]

Zod, the sad thing for them is that they appear to think that, because the peculiar demographic of PH and/or NPE makes them a local majority, this translates to the real world, in which UKIP remains a fringe party. UKIP will do very well on protest votes in the Euro elections, and will be a distant fourth in the General Election, winning, most likely, no seats at all. I have offered to lay money on that but had no takers, as far as I know. (WW said there might be one but I am not sure who.)

[Zod]

Guam said:

Zod said:

I note that no UKIP supporter or sympathiser (that's for Guam) has answered my question as to why there was a debate going on last night about schools filled with non-native English speaking children.

I wasn't involved in that part of the debate so wasn,t paying attention, the only thing I know about linguistics in peterborough is that translators were costing the LA approx 1 mill a year (from memory). As for the schools don't know enough about the issue as I dont have kids (or Grandkids in those schools), one goes to a village school in the "sticks", the other is at a Girls school in one of the towns.

Not qualified to comment in either direction so wasn't paying close attention sorry.

Now if it had been about the new hospital in Peterborough I have opinions on that (but thats a different thread topic).

It's a subject that merits discussion, but not in this thread, given UKIP's stance as I understand it. I suspect many UKIP supporters are racist to some extent, but that is true of some Labour and Conservative supporters too. Finding out which group has the highest proportion of racists would require use of a truth serum.

[otolith]

Zod said:

Actually, I think it is relevant, because there I suspect that a larger slice of the PH membership has UKIP tendencies than the population as a whole and it is important to understand what motivates them. Apart from a general dissatisfaction with politics, politicians and life as a whole, I'm struggling to see anything.

Perhaps euroscepticism and a distrust of the Conservative Party?

Personally, as another middle class (small l) liberal, UKIP's recent focus on immigration makes me wince - but then I'm conditioned to think that it's something nice people don't talk about, and it's not as if I actually face any negative personal consequences as a result. If it keeps down wages for manual workers and tradesmen, that's mostly in my interests (though it's probably not doing the welfare bill much good). Given, however, that it is something which has a significant downside for some UK citizens, and that they are concerned about it, and that our inability to do anything about it is a direct consequence of EU membership, I must concede that it is entirely appropriate for UKIP to campaign on it. Even using that aerial shot of Vettel.

[otolith]

Zod said:

We've been told over the last few weeks that UKIP objects to unlimited immigration from other EU Member States, but welcomes immigration from Commonwealth countries. Why therefore is there discussion in this thread of schools in which pupils speak Punjabi and Urdu as a first language?

I would read that as being because they are in favour of controlled immigration but favour integration over multiculturalism?

[anonymous-user]

Guam said:

Actually taking you at your word, have you asked UKIP any of these questions?

Given that (with one or two exceptions) most posters on these threads aren't members of UKIP?

Would your time not be better spent going to the source of what irks you?

You mistakenly assume that UKIP irks me. It doesn't irk me in the slightest. It provides lots of unintended humour for those of us who do not live in a fantasy world. On a more serious note, its rise sadly confirms the gullibility of part of the public, the success of cynical demagogues who come from a mould first made twenty five centuries ago in Greece, and the persistence in the human mind and spirit of the most base thoughts and feelings. I think that UKIP is a transient, opportunist, and (in the person of its leader at least) deeply insincere organisation. It deliberately exploits and disseminates ignorance and fear. Its leadership consists of people who are either contemptible charlatans or contemptible bigots, or both. Not all who follow its false flag are bigots, but sadly quite a few are. All who follow it are sadly deluded. I'm sorry for you, Guam.

[WinstonWolf]

Breadvan72 said:

Guam said:

Actually taking you at your word, have you asked UKIP any of these questions?

Given that (with one or two exceptions) most posters on these threads aren't members of UKIP?

Would your time not be better spent going to the source of what irks you?

You mistakenly assume that UKIP irks me. It doesn't irk me in the slightest. It provides lots of unintended humour for those of us ho do not live in a fantasy world. On a more serious note, its rise sadly confirms the gullibility of part of the public, the success of cynical demagogues who come from a mould first made twenty five centuries ago in Greece, and the persistence in the human mind and spirit of the most base thoughts and feelings. I think that UKIP is a transient, opportunist, and (in the person of its leader at least) deeply insincere organisation. It deliberately exploits and disseminates ignorance and fear. Its leadership consists of people who are either contemptible charlatans or contemptible bigots, or both. Not all who follow its false flag are bigots, but sadly quite a few are. All who follow it are sadly deluded. I'm sorry for you, Guam.

And you wonder why people can't be bothered replying to you?

[Blib]

The problem is that the EU is a deeply flawed institution which seems immune from reform. No wonder people become frustrated and parties spring up to take advantage of this.

[anonymous-user]

You may be right about the EU, Blib. It may be broken beyond repair, even though the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Having said that, if you want to get out, the only chance of that happening is, I hate to say it, a Tory win next year. I have said before and say again that much as I am troubled by the bad features of the EU, I am not troubled enough by them to want the Tories back in, so I would forgo the chance of a referendum, given the choice. If a referendum comes, I will vote on the arguments at the time, and could vote either way.

[Blib]

Personally, I wouldn't vote for UKIP in a general election. However, the forthcoming EU election is an entirely different matter.

I believe a shot across the bows of the main three parties AND the EU in the form of a large UKIP vote may be just the thing to begin turning around the EU tanker.

Indeed, it may well be the only thing to engender the change that is so obviously needed.

[otolith]

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

[anonymous-user]

WinstonWolf said:

And you wonder why people can't be bothered replying to you?

A convenient line, WW. Saying boo hoo hoo they are being howwible to us seems to be one of the standard UKIP ways of refusing to engage with critique of the cult's empty promises and repellent core values.

[WinstonWolf]

Breadvan72 said:

WinstonWolf said:

And you wonder why people can't be bothered replying to you?

A convenient line, WW. Saying boo hoo hoo they are being howwible to us seems to be one of the standard UKIP ways of refusing to engage with critique of the cult's empty promises and repellent core values.

I think you make my point for me very well.

[FredClogs]

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

Because it enlarges the tribe, the larger the tribe the higher the likely hood that you'll get to live out your 3score and 10 without ever having to witness the horror of a tribe on tribe massacre. And as a tool for tribal enlargement it beats dictatorship, religion or other singular ideology, it's at least trying to be democratic.

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

The Nation State (a fairly recent invention) is, I think, a busted flush. It has outlived its usefulness, as previous political forms did before it. The world is now too big and complex for one nation state to deal with the problems that the world throws up. I attach value to much from history, such as a political and legal culture that favours liberty, tolerance, pluralism, commerce, science, and the arts; but I attach no value to the historical accidents whereby one particular linguistic group happens to occupy one particular bit of land, or to the borders that are artificial consequences of historical migrations, wars, and deals.