What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.

[WinstonWolf]

Guam said:

Breadvan72 said:

Guam said:

Actually taking you at your word, have you asked UKIP any of these questions?

Given that (with one or two exceptions) most posters on these threads aren't members of UKIP?

Would your time not be better spent going to the source of what irks you?

You mistakenly assume that UKIP irks me. It doesn't irk me in the slightest. It provides lots of unintended humour for those of us who do not live in a fantasy world. On a more serious note, its rise sadly confirms the gullibility of part of the public, the success of cynical demagogues who come from a mould first made twenty five centuries ago in Greece, and the persistence in the human mind and spirit of the most base thoughts and feelings. I think that UKIP is a transient, opportunist, and (in the person of its leader at least) deeply insincere organisation. It deliberately exploits and disseminates ignorance and fear. Its leadership consists of people who are either contemptible charlatans or contemptible bigots, or both. Not all who follow its false flag are bigots, but sadly quite a few are. All who follow it are sadly deluded. I'm sorry for you, Guam.

Must you be patronising? I generally enjoy debating with you, I neither seek nor need your pity, You ask questions, some of us do you the courtesy of a response, then you revert to type?

Have you considered the reason many fail to respond, is your attitude to them if they do? also I didn't say UKIP irked you, however you clearly (your own words) are irritated by a failure to answer your points, My suggestion was simply, take it to the source of that irritation and ask those in the KNOW to address your points, I would (and have with all parties).

Often you get ignored, often you get a rubber stamp response, now and again you actually get an answer, As happened with the Syrian issue, the answer was not one I was prepared to accept and will cause me to not vote for that MP again, however he had the decency to answer me in detail so fair play to him on that.

Delusion works both ways, continuing to vote for a bankrupt establishment in the vain hope they will change is just as deluded as you suggest others are being.

Indeed, in fact I'm reminded of Einstein's definition.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[otolith]

FredClogs said:

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

Because it enlarges the tribe, the larger the tribe the higher the likely hood that you'll get to live out your 3score and 10 without ever having to witness the horror of a tribe on tribe massacre. And as a tool for tribal enlargement it beats dictatorship, religion or other singular ideology, it's at least trying to be democratic.

I think the evolution of a politically belligerent European Union as a superpower is more of a risk to peace than intra-European strife.

[PRTVR]

otolith said:

Zod said:

We've been told over the last few weeks that UKIP objects to unlimited immigration from other EU Member States, but welcomes immigration from Commonwealth countries. Why therefore is there discussion in this thread of schools in which pupils speak Punjabi and Urdu as a first language?

I would read that as being because they are in favour of controlled immigration but favour integration over multiculturalism?

Also how you plan for schools becomes difficult when you have no control over immigration all you can do is react to the situation when it occurs,the UK census was a means of working out future needs be it schools or hospitals, but now we have no idea what is going to happen, I really struggle to understand why anyone would want unrestricted immigration.

[FredClogs]

Breadvan72 said:

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

The Nation State (a fairly recent invention) is, I think, a busted flush. It has outlived its usefulness, as previous political forms did before it. The world is now too big and complex for one nation state to deal with the problems that the world throws up. I attach value to much from history, such as a political and legal culture that favours liberty, tolerance, pluralism, commerce, science, and the arts; but I attach no value to the historical accidents whereby one particular linguistic group happens to occupy one particular bit of land, or to the borders that are artificial consequences of historical migrations, wars, and deals.

Yeah, that aswell.

The internet really is changing everything and pretty soon we'll all be attached, regardless of geography, in much more meaningful ways and much more important ways than what patch of soil our parent happen to have been born on.

Obviously not without a fight back from those wishing to preserve hegemony for their own reasons, as we see in Brazil and China, but real liberty (not UKIP liberty) will come from human to human connection not tribe to tribe.

[anonymous-user]

Guam, I am not irritated by people not responding to debating challenges posed by those of us who doubt the Gospel according to Nige. I am suggesting that a reasonable inference may be drawn from failure to respond. As for the kitchen feeling a bit warm, although you - almost alone among the pro UKIP group - make some attempt to engage in reasoned argument, you cannot hope altogether to escape ridicule if you support a political party that is ridiculous (to give it one of the kinder epithets that it warrants). If you want to bathe in the glow of Leader Love and worship at the shrine of Saint Nigel, it's not hard to find one or several "Hey, aren't UKIP just the BEST, eh?" threads that you can luxuriate in. If you come here, you may find your views challenged. That's how it works.

[otolith]

Breadvan72 said:

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

The Nation State (a fairly recent invention) is, I think, a busted flush. It has outlived its usefulness, as previous political forms did before it. The world is now too big and complex for one nation state to deal with the problems that the world throws up. I attach value to much from history, such as a political and legal culture that favours liberty, tolerance, pluralism, commerce, science, and the arts; but I attach no value to the historical accidents whereby one particular linguistic group happens to occupy one particular bit of land, or to the borders that are artificial consequences of historical migrations, wars, and deals.

But the EU's borders are also artificial. Why should the optimal size for a population to decide a common way of life be half a billion and not 60 million?

[anonymous-user]

Hey, what we need is (democratic) World Government, but we are way off getting that. Take things step by step. One possibility is go back to City States, and at that population size (city plus hinterland) there could be some punchy democracy, but that model too has its difficulties. I would vote for a Federal Europe, but not unless it is one with an effective representative (ie Edmund Burke stylee) democracy built into it.

[otolith]

Breadvan72 said:

Hey, what we need is (democratic) World Government, but we are way off getting that. Take things step by step. One possibility is go back to City States, but that too has its difficulties. I would vote for a Federal Europe, but not unless it is one with an effective representative (ie Edmund Burke stylee) democracy built into it.

I would see a (democratic) World Government as essentially a prison planet. That is not a utopian vision for me.

[otolith]

Guam said:

How will a federal EU change the fundamentals of human nature?

So far, by bribing new entrants with the wealth of current members. It remains to be seen what happens when the bribed become the taxed.

[anonymous-user]

Guam said:

Hang on though enlargement by forcing disparate cultures together has worked really well in the past......oh wait it hasn't, as others have raised history on here, perhaps they should go read some, all you do is create a pressure cooker of varying expectations and cultural mores, that ultimately implodes, people have to be willing to go down that route, otherwise the very thing they claim to want to avoid will come to pass.

Oddly we are seeing drives towards fragmentation rather than coalescence across Europe, even here in our very Islands. How will a federal EU change the fundamentals of human nature?

That is a counsel of despair and can easily lead to the xenophobes (not you) claiming legitimacy for their arguments of hate. Difference and conflict are not innate human qualities, they are learned behaviours. No child is born disliking the people in the next valley. Look at the history of some (not all) European and non European States and Empires - often spanning large areas and including several different linguistic and cultural groups, but being successful for often quite extended periods.

[anonymous-user]

I doubt that a democratic World Government will ever happen, or that it will happen for some centuries yet to come, but I can't see why it is not something to aspire to. We might be able to leap forward and exploit the wealth of the Solar System, and live without poverty or conflict if we could unite, but we probably won't. Science fiction, yes, and likely to remain so,

[otolith]

Breadvan72 said:

That is a counsel of despair and can easily lead to the xenophobes (not you) claiming legitimacy for their arguments of hate. Difference and conflict are not innate human qualities, they are learned behaviours. No child is born disliking the people in the next valley. Look at the history of some (not all) European and non European States and Empires - often spanning large areas and including several different linguistic and cultural groups, but being successful for often quite extended periods.

I like the existence of a diversity of political and economic systems. I like that there is a Finnish way of running a country and an American way of running a country and a British way of running a country. I don't want some kind of global Scandinavia.

[anonymous-user]

If Global Scandinavia meant no warfare and no poverty, and peace and freedom for all on the planet, would that not be a price worth paying for giving up the noble spectacle of PM's Question Time?

None of this will happen, but there is no harm in thinking about where you might want to get to, even if only on a regional or continental scale.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 18:12

[FredClogs]

Guam said:

otolith said:

FredClogs said:

otolith said:

Breadvan72 said:

the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.

Why?

Because it enlarges the tribe, the larger the tribe the higher the likely hood that you'll get to live out your 3score and 10 without ever having to witness the horror of a tribe on tribe massacre. And as a tool for tribal enlargement it beats dictatorship, religion or other singular ideology, it's at least trying to be democratic.

I think the evolution of a politically belligerent European Union as a superpower is more of a risk to peace than intra-European strife.

Hang on though enlargement by forcing disparate cultures together has worked really well in the past......oh wait it hasn't, as others have raised history on here, perhaps they should go read some, all you do is create a pressure cooker of varying expectations and cultural mores, that ultimately implodes, people have to be willing to go down that route, otherwise the very thing they claim to want to avoid will come to pass.

Oddly we are seeing drives towards fragmentation rather than coalescence across Europe, even here in our very Islands. How will a federal EU change the fundamentals of human nature?

Not at all...

https://transferwise.com/blog/2014-03/watch-as-100...

Watch that video, it's fascinating, after the collapse of the Roman Empire there was a really long period of time where pretty much every large village in central Europe was a state or kingdom, evolution is always 2 steps forward 1 back.

People do want peace, people do want a federal Europe, perhaps the majority of people, perhaps not - we should all agree democracy is the way to find out.

[anonymous-user]

Guam said:

Breadvan72 said:

That is a counsel of despair and can easily lead to the xenophobes (not you) claiming legitimacy for their arguments of hate. Difference and conflict are not innate human qualities, they are learned behaviours. No child is born disliking the people in the next valley. Look at the history of some (not all) European and non European States and Empires - often spanning large areas and including several different linguistic and cultural groups, but being successful for often quite extended periods.

Sorry one word response
DARWIN!

Go read him!

I have. Unlike you, it appears, I have understood what he wrote. Maybe you should read Darwin again, as well as catching up on some history.

[anonymous-user]

Guam, this is a serious question. Are you sure that you have entirely shaken off Marxist thinking? I was never a Marxist, although I read most of his stuff when younger. You appear to have a slightly determinist and maybe even slightly dialectical materialist view of things.

[anonymous-user]

Fred Clogs has just made a contribution to the debate, Guam. If you don't agree with it, why not debate it rather that telling him to sod off?

[WinstonWolf]

Breadvan72 said:

Fred Clogs has just made a contribution to the debate, Guam. If you don't agree with it, why not debate it rather that telling him to sod off?

Did you see his mental outburst last night? You can't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level then beat you with stupidity.

For the sake of forum harmony he's best ignored.

[otolith]

Breadvan72 said:

If Global Scandinavia meant no warfare and no poverty, and peace and freedom for all on the planet, would that not be a price worth paying for giving up the noble spectacle of PM's Question Time?

We could all live modest, comfortable lives of tempered ambition and janteloven?

Breadvan72 said:

None of this will happen, but there is no harm in thinking about where you might want to bget to, even if only on a regional or continental scale.

I think I would want to join the realists in Special Circumstances

[anonymous-user]

Off to pub. See yers tomorrer if I CBA.

Otolith, Special Circumstances would be the perfect gig, as that way you get to hang out at the dangerous margins and mix it up with the other Involveds and their client civs. Just remember to make regular backups of your mind state and don't leave the Orbital or the GCU without that signet ring/knife missile that the SC Training Drone gave you.

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 18:26