What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.
Discussion
AshVX220 said:
In respons to BV's question, I don't know the answers really. But a counter-point. Why do such immigrants trek all the way across Europe, through some amazing countries to come to the UK?
I think we all know the answer is our very generous benefits system, free healthcare, fairly good free education etc.
We can't afford to continue doing this.
Although, maybe the prime reason they come here rather than stop in Germany or France for example could be the langauge. English is still the dominant langauge in the western world and more people from other nations learn English first over French, Spanish or German?
Not sure if it helps, but I can answer part of that; In some countries, prior to 90's the only foreign language on official curriculum was Russian. After that, Russian was dismissed en masse in favour of mostly English language. I'd hate to guess, but for illustration it would be maybe 70% English, 30% all others.I think we all know the answer is our very generous benefits system, free healthcare, fairly good free education etc.
We can't afford to continue doing this.
Although, maybe the prime reason they come here rather than stop in Germany or France for example could be the langauge. English is still the dominant langauge in the western world and more people from other nations learn English first over French, Spanish or German?
When they were unveiled Farage said Ukip’s controversial new posters were “honest” and reflect “reality as it is experienced by millions of British people outside the Westminster bubble”
Thus far we've had the racist builder and the less than honest use of a UKIP worker's picture (and the subsequent unravelling of an innocent woman's private life).
Now we give you the Irish poster boy...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/25/ukip-po...
And, as a little amuse-bouche, the ill-chosen meme (sorry chaps, no cats).
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/25/ukip-fi...
Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up.
Can't wait for the "Plans for UKIP's annual ball, to be held in brewery, fall through" headline...
Thus far we've had the racist builder and the less than honest use of a UKIP worker's picture (and the subsequent unravelling of an innocent woman's private life).
Now we give you the Irish poster boy...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/25/ukip-po...
And, as a little amuse-bouche, the ill-chosen meme (sorry chaps, no cats).
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/25/ukip-fi...
Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up.
Can't wait for the "Plans for UKIP's annual ball, to be held in brewery, fall through" headline...
WinstonWolf said:
Breadvan72 said:
London is the sixth largest city in France. There has been large scale movement of French people. This does not attract much comment. Romanians attract comment.
As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
When did you last try to get a doctors appointment? Ever been out on the roads and noticed it can be just a teensy bit busy at times? Got kids, notice how all the decent schools are over subscribed? As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
Are resources unlimited or finite?
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 25th April 15:55
Further on resources: are migrants scapegoats for poor resource management decisions by successive governments?
Why come here? Jobs, obviously. Southern Europe has fewer jobs on offer. As noted above, many migrants go to Germany and elsewhere. The narrow UKIP approach misses this. Other reasons to come? English as world language, and also tolerance and welcome. The fearful Little Englanders and rancid xenophobes are few in number, overall. A lot of Brits are tolerant and rub along with recent arrivals, especially as we are a nation of migrants that has been part of Europe since far earlier than 1972.
Why come here? Jobs, obviously. Southern Europe has fewer jobs on offer. As noted above, many migrants go to Germany and elsewhere. The narrow UKIP approach misses this. Other reasons to come? English as world language, and also tolerance and welcome. The fearful Little Englanders and rancid xenophobes are few in number, overall. A lot of Brits are tolerant and rub along with recent arrivals, especially as we are a nation of migrants that has been part of Europe since far earlier than 1972.
When asylum was the big issue a few years back, Germany had the most asylum claimants within the EU, and most refugees then as now flee one poor or war ravaged country and shelter, often wretchedly, in a nearby poor country that can barely cope with the influx; but if you believe the tub thumpers all asylum seekers in the world come here.
To listen to UKIP you would think that only the UK suffers the problems of modernity. Little Englanders indeed.
To listen to UKIP you would think that only the UK suffers the problems of modernity. Little Englanders indeed.
Zod said:
It's pure incompetence. Farage has his rhetorical ability, but the party has nothing else. Even to pretend that they could govern is absurd.
Yes. But, if you have the ability to spout rabble-rousing, populist, b
ks and living off the taxpayer without the risk of ever holding a responsible political position is far preferable to having a proper job.It's on the same level as benefits fraud but without the associated risk of getting sent to gaol.
Breadvan72 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Breadvan72 said:
London is the sixth largest city in France. There has been large scale movement of French people. This does not attract much comment. Romanians attract comment.
As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
When did you last try to get a doctors appointment? Ever been out on the roads and noticed it can be just a teensy bit busy at times? Got kids, notice how all the decent schools are over subscribed? As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
Are resources unlimited or finite?
WinstonWolf said:
Breadvan72 said:
WinstonWolf said:
Breadvan72 said:
London is the sixth largest city in France. There has been large scale movement of French people. This does not attract much comment. Romanians attract comment.
As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
When did you last try to get a doctors appointment? Ever been out on the roads and noticed it can be just a teensy bit busy at times? Got kids, notice how all the decent schools are over subscribed? As for resources, is there any evidence that resources cannot cope with migrant workers? Is this just supposition?
Are resources unlimited or finite?
Why not move to somewhere where resources aren't under such strain? Being a powerfully built company director, your skills should be in great demand elsewhere. I'm sure you could be leading a happier life and earning far more in the Cotswolds...
There was not much obvious evidence of immigration ruining everything in the Cotswolds when I was there last week. Those who say that the UK is "full", how do you know that? Have you got the handbook somewhere that tells us what the load limit is? You can see signs of localised pressures caused by migrancy in some areas, mainly cities, and Governments haven't done enough and need to do more to deal with these pressures, but aren't these pressures by their nature likely to be transient? Why blame migrants instead of blaming bad Government for things not being as we wish them to be?
Breadvan72 said:
Further on resources: are migrants scapegoats for poor resource management decisions by successive governments?
Why come here? Jobs, obviously. Southern Europe has fewer jobs on offer. As noted above, many migrants go to Germany and elsewhere. The narrow UKIP approach misses this. Other reasons to come? English as world language, and also tolerance and welcome. The fearful Little Englanders and rancid xenophobes are few in number, overall. A lot of Brits are tolerant and rub along with recent arrivals, especially as we are a nation of migrants that has been part of Europe since far earlier than 1972.
You forget extremely generous healthcare and benefits systems with no qualifying period.Why come here? Jobs, obviously. Southern Europe has fewer jobs on offer. As noted above, many migrants go to Germany and elsewhere. The narrow UKIP approach misses this. Other reasons to come? English as world language, and also tolerance and welcome. The fearful Little Englanders and rancid xenophobes are few in number, overall. A lot of Brits are tolerant and rub along with recent arrivals, especially as we are a nation of migrants that has been part of Europe since far earlier than 1972.
Thing is, that's not an immigration problem. It's just being dressed up as such to bash EU membership.
After all, why should any able-bodied person be entitled to healthcare or benefits if they're not prepared to work to help pay for them? I couldn't care less if someone was born in Budapest or Bromley. If they haven't paid their share in, then why the hell should they get a share out?
We shouldn't be trying to stop immigrants from claiming benefits or healthcare if they haven't paid into the system... We should be stopping everyone from claiming if they haven't paid in, and there's far more homegrown layabouts than there are immigrant layabouts, so doing this would reduce the burden on those of us who can be arsed to work for a living.
This would have the side benefit of making the country less attractive to immigrants who might want to come here to scrounge, but the main benefit would be cutting the bills run up to support out far more numerous homegrown scroungers.
So, no NHS for children? You probably didn't mean that. What about a young adult at university? What about someone who has started a first job but only paid a few weeks tax and NI? They get run over, or fall ill. No NHS for that person? Your model for society seems a bit, er, pre modern.
Breadvan72 said:
There was not much obvious evidence of immigration ruining everything in the Cotswolds when I was there last week.
Relatively little visibility, apart from the odd Romanian Big Issue seller dropped off in the morning and picked up at night - if not moved on by the fuzz in the meantime. West a bit, Swindon is literally sucking the Kennet dry, but I've no idea which demographic changes are driving that. Swindon continues to spread across the countryside like the kind of mole you would make sure to show your GP.
Personally, EU migration has about as much impact on my life as the "bedroom tax", ATOS decisions, public sector cuts, gendered toys, fracking, Scottish independence or Michael Gove, but like migration they are all issues about which I have concerned friends. Not the same friends for all of them, obviously, the middle class hippies and the struggling youngsters and the self employed tradesmen all have different sets of issues that bother them, but I'm not sure my personal exposure to them is a good metric for their importance.
I am not suggesting that it should be, but neither should "some bloke told me that some bloke told him that...etc". People are often concerned about all sorts of things that, on careful analysis, they could reasonably be less concerned by, especially when those concerns are led by media outlets that deliberately ramp up the concerns.
Breadvan72 said:
So, no NHS for children? You probably didn't mean that. What about a young adult at university? What about someone who has started a first job but only paid a few weeks tax and NI? They get run over, or fall ill. No NHS for that person? Your model for society seems a bit, er, pre modern.
Most other countries have mandatory health insurance or similar schemes. Why shouldn't we?I don't have a problem with dependent children being covered under their parents' insurance contributions, but once they've left full time education, it's off to work we go. Start work, and work starts paying your healthcare premiums. Have an accident a few weeks into work? Insurers have actuaries to calculate premiums which take that sort of thing into account.
Don't start working? Tough. Either no healthcare (and certainly no benefits - those absolutely should be dependent on having paid in tax and NI) or mummy & daddy have to pay your insurance for you. I'm sick and tired of looking at the amount of tax taken off my pay packets, then looking at number of layabouts that supports.
Do this, and you not only make it much harder for UK citizens not to work, you also make it much, much harder for immigrants to do the same, and it's all perfectly acceptable under EU law.
Any half decent right of centre party should be using EU immigrants as a lever to sort out the benefits entitlement culture, not using the benefits bill as a reason to keep immigrants out.
Breadvan72 said:
I am not suggesting that it should be, but neither should "some bloke told me that some bloke told him that...etc". People are often concerned about all sorts of things that, on careful analysis, they could reasonably be less concerned by, especially when those concerns are led by media outlets that deliberately ramp up the concerns.
Yes, that's true, but the feeling that talking about immigration is simply not something that nice people do isn't helpful either.No one suggests that. It's just one of those ideas made up by the UKIP lot who claim that they alone have a handle on reality (whilst to most of us seeming to inhabit a fantasy world). A sensible conversation about immigration is perfectly possible, but you can't have that with UKIP as all they do is churn out misinformation and play to prejudices.
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