What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.
Discussion
I like all this "OMG they're calling us racists OMG!!!!" stuff, as, so far as I can see, no one has suggested racism above. Are some of these upstanding 1950s fair play patriots a tad over sensitive about something, I wonder?
To be fair, however, it must be tough being Nige. Bloke says gays cause bad weather, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Bloke says Bongo Bongo Land, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Bloke says he agrees with the EDL, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Such a pity that all the real, sensible, not in any way fruitloopy or hatey UKIP types keep getting confused by the unfair minded media* and the pinko Commie establishment with all that other lot, who, of course "aren't really UKIP".
* poor old UKIP, even the Mail slags them off.
To be fair, however, it must be tough being Nige. Bloke says gays cause bad weather, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Bloke says Bongo Bongo Land, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Bloke says he agrees with the EDL, Nige has to say "not really UKIP". Such a pity that all the real, sensible, not in any way fruitloopy or hatey UKIP types keep getting confused by the unfair minded media* and the pinko Commie establishment with all that other lot, who, of course "aren't really UKIP".
* poor old UKIP, even the Mail slags them off.
Breadvan72 said:
General election 2015: UKIP will struggle to get a single MP. I reckon somewhere between zero and three but I would be inclined to bet closer to the zero end than the three end.
Barring an incumbent Tory being caught in an intimate encounter with a gerbil just before the election, UKIP arn't going to win a single seat. Even then, the former is considerably more likely than the later. IMO that's a shame, especially for the gerbil but also because they will probably have close to 2 million votes who will remain largely unrepresented. fblm said:
Barring an incumbent Tory being caught in an intimate encounter with a gerbil just before the election, UKIP arn't going to win a single seat. Even then, the former is considerably more likely than the later. IMO that's a shame, especially for the gerbil but also because they will probably have close to 2 million votes who will remain largely unrepresented.
I suggest that you might re-read Edmund Burke's Address to the Electors of Bristol. The two million, or whatever number it may be, won't be unrepresented. Rovinghawk said:
Breadvan72 said:
... One of the ironies of the US is that, broadly speaking, the pro Federal Democrat States raise the Federal revenues, and the anti Federal Republican States spend them.
Interesting- do you have a source I can read?http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/08/...
Breadvan72 said:
I suggest that you might re-read Edmund Burke's Address to the Electors of Bristol. The two million, or whatever number it may be, won't be unrepresented.
Ugh. To avoid reading any further or worse actually trying to understand it I'll just point out I said 'largely unrepresented' and hope thats enough to avoid any further homework.AJS- said:
But are they "allied with neo fascists," or are they more accurately "in the same European parliamentary grouping as an Italian right wing populist party."?
You're a legal guy BV and you must see your own weasel words here.
No weasel, no stoat, no ferret. UKIP is allied with Italian Neo Fascists. Those words are true in every particular. Some UKIP supporters may find this unpalatable* but, hey, so does everyone else! Before anyone mentions allying with Stalin, that was, er, World War Two. This isn't.You're a legal guy BV and you must see your own weasel words here.
* or perhaps what they find unpalatable is that this fact gets pointed out.
Getragdogleg said:
BV, What do you actually want for everyone ? What is your roadmap for the worlds future ?
I don't have a road map for the World's future. Do you? If I did, Nationalism (of any kind) would not be on the map. The Nation State has only been around for a few centuries, and I reckon that it is about ready to go to the retirement home for redundant polities, just as the City State did, but it may need to hang on a bit until a democratic replacement is found. What do I want for everyone? A slightly toned down (and probably mostly Earth bound) version of Iain M Banks' Culture would do, but perhaps without all the big shouty space monsters and stuff that blows up (OK, just some of that). That's a slightly facetious answer,as I am referring to a made up sci-fi universe that will never exist, but being a bit more serious, a post oil*, post scarcity and post unfairness society. Not as daft and unrealisable as the pessimists may say, but not at all easy, either, and not likely to happen this century, if ever, as far as I can tell.
* Oil would not be banned, as people would use it in classic cars, boats, aeroplanes, etc (ie any car etc made before the energy breakthrough, whenever that occurs).
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 8th April 18:53
In the interests of inclusivity this post is written in crayon. The news story that started the thread does not show silly foreigners, it shows silly people. Intent on showing that crossing the Med in a small boat is easy, they showed that it is hard. No serious political group would pull such a stunt. That's the main point. It so happens that some of these silly people are political associates, to use a neutral (ish) word, of some other people that some here think are very serious and sensible and others think are ludicrous and silly (and sometimes plain nasty as well, because try as you like those unfortunate quotes won't go away), and ultimately doomed to historical footnotehood. Next year we will probably find out who is right about that and who is wrong. Now I have to go and cook some nasty garlicky foreign food, yuck.
Breadvan72 said:
...try as you like those unfortunate quotes won't go away...
You know what else won't go away thats actually important? Those pesky fiscal transfers between states which you helpfully brought up earlier. They haven't gone away in the USA after hundreds of years and they won't go away in Europe either. Its like being told you have to go to a party and then being asked to bring the booze. And the food. And its at your house.scenario8 said:
Well I thought the original story was fine on its own without the inevitable slide into yet another divisive "debate" about UKIP. But since it's gone that way anyway...
I disagree, BV, with my inference from your post that UKIP will show themselves up in next year's GE. I expect that election to be a shot in their arm. Over the next year or two or ten I doubt the EU will change in appreciable ways to the satisfaction of the majority of UKIP sympathisers so I don't see a general anti-EU/anti-establishment political movement going away and UKIP seem best placed in the short and medium term to benefit from that - boosted by a growing dissatisfaction with what is widely perceived outside of cosmopolitan and metropolitan areas as a self-serving political elite.
It will be interesting to see over the next few years whether UKIP can maintain support, grow in stature and become a "proper" political party like Labour had to between the wars or whether it will just fester and ultimately disappear.
They'll do well in the Euro elections for a variety of reasons, naturally, and while they will be under greater scrutiny at the GE and no doubt will find life much tougher than previously I doubt many core UKIP supporters or likely swing voters wil care too much if their rank and file speak a little too, er, plainly at times. Indeed I can see UKIP benefitting from the sort of mishaps and quotes-taken-out-of-context (honest) that would see PPC from the traditional parties kicked into the long grass.
My bet is they'll receive maybe 8-10% of the popular vote and will be rewarded with either none, one or two MPs (if they play their cards very well and enjoy a tail wind somehow or other). No doubt that will then spark a debate around PR (that historically has received little sympathy from the wider electorate) and any presence at Westminster will keep them in the wider public consciousness. Will they then be able to maintain and build upon that support? They'll need to mature an awful lot, in my view. Will we still be talking about UKIP in two decades, though? I'm not sure. Interesting times. If only I was a politics undergraduate today...
Sensible stuff, but I think that much depends on whether Cameron wins the next election, which I think that he probably will, just about. I disagree, BV, with my inference from your post that UKIP will show themselves up in next year's GE. I expect that election to be a shot in their arm. Over the next year or two or ten I doubt the EU will change in appreciable ways to the satisfaction of the majority of UKIP sympathisers so I don't see a general anti-EU/anti-establishment political movement going away and UKIP seem best placed in the short and medium term to benefit from that - boosted by a growing dissatisfaction with what is widely perceived outside of cosmopolitan and metropolitan areas as a self-serving political elite.
It will be interesting to see over the next few years whether UKIP can maintain support, grow in stature and become a "proper" political party like Labour had to between the wars or whether it will just fester and ultimately disappear.
They'll do well in the Euro elections for a variety of reasons, naturally, and while they will be under greater scrutiny at the GE and no doubt will find life much tougher than previously I doubt many core UKIP supporters or likely swing voters wil care too much if their rank and file speak a little too, er, plainly at times. Indeed I can see UKIP benefitting from the sort of mishaps and quotes-taken-out-of-context (honest) that would see PPC from the traditional parties kicked into the long grass.
My bet is they'll receive maybe 8-10% of the popular vote and will be rewarded with either none, one or two MPs (if they play their cards very well and enjoy a tail wind somehow or other). No doubt that will then spark a debate around PR (that historically has received little sympathy from the wider electorate) and any presence at Westminster will keep them in the wider public consciousness. Will they then be able to maintain and build upon that support? They'll need to mature an awful lot, in my view. Will we still be talking about UKIP in two decades, though? I'm not sure. Interesting times. If only I was a politics undergraduate today...
The original story was enough by itself, I agree (even if Lega Nord is able to say "not really Lega Nord, they just bought a flag on eBay"), as an example of daft political stunts, but, as you will have noticed, the followers of the Scared Flame wax umbrageous whenever The One True Way is called into question.
As for alliances and such, coincidentally finding yourself in agreement with something that someone else has said is hardly the same as forming a political pact.
Apple juice is a bit more trad as a mixer, I gather. Being Irish, I love the Poles because they are the Irish of Central Europe (or maybe the Irish are the Poles of Westen Europe), although like some of the Irish some of the Poles can be a bit blinkered and xenophobic (and their neo-nutters make the Italian ones look like fluffy bunnies).
IOW: agreed, what a dump!
IOW: agreed, what a dump!
citizensm1th said:
BV With my tinfoil hat firmly on.
given the history of Poland maybe you lot (the Irish) are the displaced poles who just moved as far away from the Czars and Prussians as possible
and poteen isn't that far from home made polish vodka both bloody lethal
I'll go with that as a theory. After all, the Finns are just some Hungarians who, after a row over the map, turned right while the others turned left. A point that nationalists seem to struggle with is that everyone is everyone else. Crikey, even the Russians are just some more bloody Vikings. You can't go anywhere without tripping over those buggers.given the history of Poland maybe you lot (the Irish) are the displaced poles who just moved as far away from the Czars and Prussians as possible
and poteen isn't that far from home made polish vodka both bloody lethal
citizensm1th said:
Oh don't get me started on our Scandinavian friends left wing tree hugging goody two shoes my arse.
there is not a more nasty avaricious bunch in Europe. Still they do like a drink so there is hope
im guessing you know derivation of the words Russia and Dublin fecking yorvik tosspots
If we are doing national stereotypes, back in the day I did a few shipping fraud cases, and people always assume that it's the Greeks who are the biggest crooks in the shipping world, but there were some right crafty Norwegians knocking about. Talking of crooks, back in the days before modern financial services regulation (as rubbish as that is), the exquisitely tailored City toffs were the most brilliant scamsters ever. Wealthy Johnny Foreigner was the favoured victim, as he would believe that he was dealing with an English gentleman whose word was his bond, when in fact he was dealing with a total crim, with really excellent manners. Some of them became super-yacht brokers after they were eventually chased out of the City, IIRC. there is not a more nasty avaricious bunch in Europe. Still they do like a drink so there is hope
im guessing you know derivation of the words Russia and Dublin fecking yorvik tosspots
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