What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.
Discussion
A bad day to bury good news. The well deserved downfall of the disgraceful Miller (alas, only temporary) overshadows policy announcements of new measures to curb benefits tourism that sound sensible. Much as I deplore the overall stance and direction of the present Government, there are some (not many, but some)things that they get right.
Talking of getting some things right and other things wrong, here's a take on the Blair Legacy. I disagree with the article's analysis and conclusion, but there is something in the argument that Blair exemplifies Shakespeare's line that "the evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones".
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/...
I abhor Blair and most (not all) of what he did, and castigate him for rejecting the golden opportunity given to him in 1997 to set the UK on a progressive trajectory for the next century and beyond, but during the days of Brown and sometimes when I see or hear Milliband I almost say "Come back Tony, all is forgiven". Almost.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/...
I abhor Blair and most (not all) of what he did, and castigate him for rejecting the golden opportunity given to him in 1997 to set the UK on a progressive trajectory for the next century and beyond, but during the days of Brown and sometimes when I see or hear Milliband I almost say "Come back Tony, all is forgiven". Almost.
I can't see Farage appealing to the angry and ill informed voters of an inner city dump, as he's too much of a floppy haired posh boy for those who class anyone with a non regional accent as a rich toff, and for those of who favour the old deference he's too much of a middle class spiv and not the real Tory toff type. UKIP can do well attracting Labour voters in cities by putting up more demotic candidates there. Farage should stick with somewhere southern and suburban to rural.
The appeal of Farage himself is quite specific. He speaks to the demographic that appears from NPE to be heavily represented in PH: the quite successful, not very well informed lower and middle middle class who feel themselves over taxed and unfairly neglected by the political elites of conventional right and left. They mostly aren't racist (a few are very ugly racists indeed), but a fair few of them may be just a tad xenophobic in a low key sort of way, or at least felt more comfortable before the World changed, not knowing enough history to realise that the World has always been changing and will never stop doing this.
It should go without saying that the man himself is an utter charlatan, and probably one of the most dishonest professional politicians active in the UK today, but, like the good Carnival huckster that he is, he is practised in the art of fooling those who are willing to be fooled.
The appeal of Farage himself is quite specific. He speaks to the demographic that appears from NPE to be heavily represented in PH: the quite successful, not very well informed lower and middle middle class who feel themselves over taxed and unfairly neglected by the political elites of conventional right and left. They mostly aren't racist (a few are very ugly racists indeed), but a fair few of them may be just a tad xenophobic in a low key sort of way, or at least felt more comfortable before the World changed, not knowing enough history to realise that the World has always been changing and will never stop doing this.
It should go without saying that the man himself is an utter charlatan, and probably one of the most dishonest professional politicians active in the UK today, but, like the good Carnival huckster that he is, he is practised in the art of fooling those who are willing to be fooled.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 9th April 10:18
TTwiggy said:
I hear the voter for Dunny-on-the-Wold is very interested in Mr Farage's politics.
As long as he doesn't accidentally, brutally hack his own head off while shaving, Ukip may be a shoo-in there.
"Three rather mangy cows, a Dachshund named Colin and a small hen in its late forties..."As long as he doesn't accidentally, brutally hack his own head off while shaving, Ukip may be a shoo-in there.
The full script is here - uncannily like the real thing. The Election report begins after the heading "At the Election Polls" (and the missing word is Metternich, as any fule kno).
http://allblackadderscripts.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12...
Here's E Blackadder offering a very fine philosophy for life:
"...fat tory landowners who get made MPs when they reach a certain weight; raving revolutionaries who think that just because they do a day's work that somehow gives them the right to get paid... Basically, it's a right old mess. Toffs at the top, plebs at the bottom, and me in the middle making a fat pile of cash out of both of them."
http://allblackadderscripts.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12...
Here's E Blackadder offering a very fine philosophy for life:
"...fat tory landowners who get made MPs when they reach a certain weight; raving revolutionaries who think that just because they do a day's work that somehow gives them the right to get paid... Basically, it's a right old mess. Toffs at the top, plebs at the bottom, and me in the middle making a fat pile of cash out of both of them."
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 9th April 10:32
Why UKIP for Farage? That way, Farage gets to be a big fish in a small and fetid pond. He would vanish in the mainstream, being at best that eccentric and buffoonish Tory backbencher who can't even get onto Newsnight in August. He is the man who buttonholes you at a party or in the pub. A glib talker, with a terribly simple solution for everything, none of it practical or costed. He claims to have had a "real" job, and dines out on this forever. Er, he was a stockbroker - he helped people to move fictitious money around on screens, and that was a while back now. (In fact, all jobs are real jobs, in a sense, but you know what I mean).
Farage has been a career politician for the last fifteen years or so. He draws his pay and allowances as an MEP and does no work in the Europarliament (which indeed is a deeply flawed body, but some there at least try). He makes the occasional un-Statesmanlike ranty speech and he and his giggling minions and somewhat unpalatable "allies of convenience" (Lega Nord et al) engage in occasional acts of Fourth Form spoiling and wrecking. Farage repeatedly tells untruths, which he must know to be untruths, about issues such as the cost of EU membership and the volume of EU laws.
I think that the word charlatan fits him as well as any other politician and better than many
Farage has been a career politician for the last fifteen years or so. He draws his pay and allowances as an MEP and does no work in the Europarliament (which indeed is a deeply flawed body, but some there at least try). He makes the occasional un-Statesmanlike ranty speech and he and his giggling minions and somewhat unpalatable "allies of convenience" (Lega Nord et al) engage in occasional acts of Fourth Form spoiling and wrecking. Farage repeatedly tells untruths, which he must know to be untruths, about issues such as the cost of EU membership and the volume of EU laws.
I think that the word charlatan fits him as well as any other politician and better than many
RE (again) why is Farage not in one of the main parties? See above: big fish, small pond, or small fish, big pond, take yer choice. To rise in one of the main parties you have to work very hard at political operating, rubber chicken dinners, and wheeler dealing, and do some actual boring work. It takes real dedication and effort, even if that effort is mostly in a bad and self serving cause. Farage has taken a short cut to the limelight, by taking control of a one man party. It is evident from the media appearances that Farage is a man brimmed with self regard who wants to be on every panel and talk show, and available for every sound bite interview. Why settle for an obscure backbench career when you can be in the public eye 24/7?
How can he believe what he says when he must know that the figures he trots out about the EU have been shown time and again to be false? There are many, many things wrong with the EU, but he focuses on lots of stuff that simply ain't true. He keeps saying the stuff because he knows that people want to hear it, and will believe the lies if they are said again and again. That makes him dishonest by any normal standard of what that means.
How can he believe what he says when he must know that the figures he trots out about the EU have been shown time and again to be false? There are many, many things wrong with the EU, but he focuses on lots of stuff that simply ain't true. He keeps saying the stuff because he knows that people want to hear it, and will believe the lies if they are said again and again. That makes him dishonest by any normal standard of what that means.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 9th April 11:20
Brussels does not set policy on most things. The UK is still self governing in most vital respects. I have yet to meet a 'kipper who has taken any time or trouble to study and understand how the EU actually works and how it doesn't. There is much about the EU to criticise, and I am undecided which way to vote if we get a referendum, but the EU's most vocal critics haven't bothered to research and understand the thing that they are criticising. They base their criticism fundamentally on the fact that the EU is "foreign", and that is what really trails the coat of UKIP and its benighted followers. UKIP is not so much a political party as a sort of quasi-religious cult, based on belief, not reason, and led by a typical cult leader: a charismatic fraud.
My work revolves to a large extent around legislation and regulations. Most of it has nothing to do with the EU, and most of it has nothing to do with Parliament. It's mostly prepared by departmental (UK) civil servants, and often badly (but that's another debate).
We are very badly misgoverned (party in power regardless), but the misgovernment happens mainly in Whitehall and Downing Street, not in Brussels, Luxembourg, or Strasbourg.
We are very badly misgoverned (party in power regardless), but the misgovernment happens mainly in Whitehall and Downing Street, not in Brussels, Luxembourg, or Strasbourg.
otolith said:
Breadvan72 said:
My work revolves to a large extent around legislation and regulations. Most of it has nothing to do with the EU, and most of it has nothing to do with Parliament. It's mostly prepared by departmental (UK) civil servants, and often badly (but that's another debate).
We are very badly misgoverned (party in power regardless), but the misgovernment happens mainly in Whitehall and Downing Street, not in Brussels, Luxembourg, or Strasbourg.
In which case, why are you sufficiently concerned about the EU's democratic deficit that you are undecided on how to vote in an in/out referendum?We are very badly misgoverned (party in power regardless), but the misgovernment happens mainly in Whitehall and Downing Street, not in Brussels, Luxembourg, or Strasbourg.
That's why at present I am a Eurofederalist who is a floating voter on whether the UK should stay in the version of the EU currently on offer.
A word on migrancy: A few years ago some Brits were up in arms about asylum seekers and assorted (mostly brown) people coming from various of the World's nasty places. Now those same Brits are up in arms about how unfair it is that (mostly brown) people can't come anymore and only dodgy East Europeans can. They said that there had been uncontrolled non EU migration (this was never true), but now they say that the non EU controls are too tough (sometimes they are) and complain of free movement within the EU, despite the fact that this was openly part of the deal when the UK joined.
A lot of the Eurosceptics complain of the EU doing things that they didn't think that it would do when they voted back in the 1970s, but they must have failed to read the documents at the time - all of the free movement stuff was on the cards from the word go. There has been some new stuff, not all of it good, since then, and some of that is worth complaining about, but free movement should not come as a surprise even to those who say they thought it was all just a trading club.
The Common Market, by the way, has never gone away - most of what the EU does is still about the Common Market.
WinstonWolf said:
So why are you so scared of them?
He isn't, it's just part of a fairly typical UKIP fantasy that he is. Being a 'kipper must at least involve the pleasure of a rich fantasy life, but also the constant embarrassment of having to say "all those hatey homophobes and Bongo Bongo nutters aren't really us". Upsides and downsides, I suppose.AJS- said:
10PS
If he's just after the money, why would he care about directing policy? Heck, join the Lib Dems if you have to. They all get the same expenses, right?
Farage has zero chance of wielding power and must be shrewd enough to know that. Being UKIP (because it is in essence a one man band) gives him money and public profile in return for almost no work. Think of the pub bore who now gets to be a well paid professional pub bore. Sweet deal!If he's just after the money, why would he care about directing policy? Heck, join the Lib Dems if you have to. They all get the same expenses, right?
Getragdogleg said:
Breadvan72 said:
AJS- said:
10PS
If he's just after the money, why would he care about directing policy? Heck, join the Lib Dems if you have to. They all get the same expenses, right?
Farage has zero chance of wielding power and must be shrewd enough to know that. Being UKIP (because it is in essence a one man band) gives him money and public profile in return for almost no work. Think of the pub bore who now gets to be a well paid professional pub bore. Sweet deal!If he's just after the money, why would he care about directing policy? Heck, join the Lib Dems if you have to. They all get the same expenses, right?
WinstonWolf said:
Breadvan72 said:
WinstonWolf said:
So why are you so scared of them?
He isn't, it's just part of a fairly typical UKIP fantasy that he is. Being a 'kipper must at least involve the pleasure of a rich fantasy life, but also the constant embarrassment of having to say "all those hatey homophobes and Bongo Bongo nutters aren't really us". Upsides and downsides, I suppose.Joking aside, and re internet debate in general (all pointless, of course) it sometimes makes me just a bit sad to see how ill informed people are about stuff (all stuff, not just politics) when there are so many opportunities to find stuff out. Variety of opinions is a mighty fine thing, but the basic concept of informing yourself before you express an opinion seems to be a vanishing notion. Perhaps I was just lucky in having teachers at a 1970s Compo school and a 1980s (free at the time) university who owned the biggest BS detectors ever invented and gave me a smaller version to keep when I left. It may also be a growing up before the internet thing. I don't know.
otolith said:
Breadvan72 said:
I deliberately said most not all. The EU has a non marginal impact on aspects of UK governance (not nearly the impact that UKIP dishonestly alleges, but an impact nonetheless), and for that reason the democratic deficit and financial inefficiency are worth being concerned about, as are the effects on the developing world of the trade barrier. I'm not worried about migrancy. Can the EU be saved by reform, or is it too late for that? I don't know. Are the economic benefits worth taking the democratic hit for? Again, I don't know.
That's why at present I am a Eurofederalist who is a floating voter on whether the UK should stay in the version of the EU currently on offer.
But not sufficiently concerned to wish to take any action likely to support the arrangement of a referendum?That's why at present I am a Eurofederalist who is a floating voter on whether the UK should stay in the version of the EU currently on offer.
...
PS: I think that Cameron will win in 2015 (I don't want him to, but I think he will). I think also that he will hold an in/out referendum. Result? Too close to call. Maybe a narrow margin stay in, but too close to call. I will start the campaign sitting on the fence but with my legs dangling over on the in side, if you see what I mean. That doesn't mean I won't swing them over the other side and jump down, but I want to hear the arguments.
FredClogs said:
The problem with democracy is that for every business owner you have 100 hardworking families who provide the labour to enrich the bourgeois. You need to sell the dream to the masses.
Just when HMS Lefty needed a bucket to help bail along comes Comrade Nunn with a pick axe. Nice work fella.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff