Cyril Smith - the revellations
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
It's front page news in the DM today (Saturday). Or so my lad, who's a journo, has told me. However, I didn't get a mention.
No need to take the mickey, my son already has.
Was that letter from 'Derek Smith' in the Mail the other day you, or just coincidence, relating to a crash report?No need to take the mickey, my son already has.
Foppo said:
The more you hear and read of these horror stories makes me think who are our rulers.Peadophiles rife in the BBC and nobody knew? Eyes wide Shut.
Paedophiles are not rife, they just get a lot of publicity (which makes it seem like there's a paedophile around every corner and behind every bit of vegetation on the street - just waiting... 
).Once you've sussed that the UK press is essentially negative (report the bad stuff in the headlines and keep the good stuff hidden away in a couple of column inches on page 35 [for example] if reporting it at all), and couple this with the stuff paedophiles 'do' being VERY BAD NEWS INDEED, then the antics of the alleged (or convicted) .pdf file ain't going in a three-column-inch box on page 35 are they??
There may or may not be a surplus of kiddy-fiddlers in the BBC (in fact, as above I'd suggest it's the latter
) - but this is irrelevant to my cynicism above as regards reporting of such in general terms, hence I'll 
.Foppo said:
The more you hear and read of these horror stories makes me think who are our rulers.
If I was a kiddie fiddler I would want the protection that power brings. Then I would want to change public opinion and eventually the law to reduce the punishment I would be likely to suffer if caught.I would probably leverage the perception/portrayal of societal change as always 'progress', maybe contrast past punishment as 'barbaric' to our own 'civilisation'. I am quite sure that I could find some useful idiots to campaign for and cheer this 'progress'.
I wonder what sort of society that would produce?
aw51 121565 said:
Paedophiles are not rife, they just get a lot of publicity (which makes it seem like there's a paedophile around every corner and behind every bit of vegetation on the street - just waiting... ).
Once you've sussed that the UK press is essentially negative (report the bad stuff in the headlines and keep the good stuff hidden away in a couple of column inches on page 35 [for example] if reporting it at all), and couple this with the stuff paedophiles 'do' being VERY BAD NEWS INDEED, then the antics of the alleged (or convicted) .pdf file ain't going in a three-column-inch box on page 35 are they??
There may or may not be a surplus of kiddy-fiddlers in the BBC (in fact, as above I'd suggest it's the latter ) - but this is irrelevant to my cynicism above as regards reporting of such in general terms, hence I'll .
As you say. This current DM expose is nothing more than Dacre special. He appears to demand a shock theme to run, the last time it was Harman and her supposedly being an apologist for paedophilia. He's turning this into an anti left thing now and the police and the BBC won't be long in appearing. ).Once you've sussed that the UK press is essentially negative (report the bad stuff in the headlines and keep the good stuff hidden away in a couple of column inches on page 35 [for example] if reporting it at all), and couple this with the stuff paedophiles 'do' being VERY BAD NEWS INDEED, then the antics of the alleged (or convicted) .pdf file ain't going in a three-column-inch box on page 35 are they??
There may or may not be a surplus of kiddy-fiddlers in the BBC (in fact, as above I'd suggest it's the latter
) - but this is irrelevant to my cynicism above as regards reporting of such in general terms, hence I'll .That said, I worked beside a paedophile for years without knowing or, which is really shocking, even suspecting. The number of people investigated in the same operation was tremendous. People from all walks of life of course. Whilst not rife, I was surprised to find out just how 'popular' it all is.
Derek Smith, why make it about the Daily Mail rather than the establishment cover up?
Surely there's a bit of a theme there with the Detective Constable being unhappy about how the well connected paedophile, William Goad was being investigated going to Panorama and Woman's Hour on Radio covering the more recent Asian grooming gangs in Rochdale years ago, like 2007?, and the difficulties in bringing such crimes to the attention of the authorities or getting them to do something about it?
Look at some of the SP&L regulars that type 'If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide'? Well if you're a well connected Politician those that may be tasked with policing and watching over us, are actively protecting their wrongdoing task masters and their mates you have nothing to fear.
The Daily Mail are running excerpts from the Rochdale MP's book. It's quite common for newspapers to serialise books from the great and the good that are found to be wanting or hypocritical and find themselves inside.
When organised religions are getting grief about historic, and not so historic sex crimes against minors why shouldn't everyone else doing it?
If our elected representatives and the authorities will keep people like Cyril Smith in power and position, what won't they do to keep power and ensure their own survival?
Surely there's a bit of a theme there with the Detective Constable being unhappy about how the well connected paedophile, William Goad was being investigated going to Panorama and Woman's Hour on Radio covering the more recent Asian grooming gangs in Rochdale years ago, like 2007?, and the difficulties in bringing such crimes to the attention of the authorities or getting them to do something about it?
Look at some of the SP&L regulars that type 'If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide'? Well if you're a well connected Politician those that may be tasked with policing and watching over us, are actively protecting their wrongdoing task masters and their mates you have nothing to fear.
The Daily Mail are running excerpts from the Rochdale MP's book. It's quite common for newspapers to serialise books from the great and the good that are found to be wanting or hypocritical and find themselves inside.
When organised religions are getting grief about historic, and not so historic sex crimes against minors why shouldn't everyone else doing it?
If our elected representatives and the authorities will keep people like Cyril Smith in power and position, what won't they do to keep power and ensure their own survival?
Edited by carinaman on Sunday 13th April 09:38
carinaman said:
Derek Smith, why make it about the Daily Mail rather than the establishment cover up?
Surely there's a bit of a theme there with the Detective Constable being unhappy about how the well connected paedophile, William Goad was being investigated going to Panorama and Woman's Hour on Radio covering the more recent Asian grooming gangs in Roachdale years ago, like 2007?, and the difficulties in breaking such crimes to the attention of the authorities or getting them to do something about it?
Look at some of the SP&L regulars that type 'If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide'? Well if you're a well connected Politician those that may be tasked with policing and watching over us, are actively protecting their wrongdoing task masters and their mates you have nothing to fear.
The Daily Mail are running excerpts from the Rochdale MP's book. It's quite common for newspapers to serialise books from the great and the good that are found to be wanting or hypocritical and find themselves inside.
When organised religions are getting grief about historic, and not so historic sex crimes against minors why shouldn't everyone else doing it?
If our elected representatives and the authorities will keep people like Cyril Smith in power and position, what won't they do to keep power and ensure their own survival?
I was replying to the post that was suggesting that paedophilia was being overreported.Surely there's a bit of a theme there with the Detective Constable being unhappy about how the well connected paedophile, William Goad was being investigated going to Panorama and Woman's Hour on Radio covering the more recent Asian grooming gangs in Roachdale years ago, like 2007?, and the difficulties in breaking such crimes to the attention of the authorities or getting them to do something about it?
Look at some of the SP&L regulars that type 'If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide'? Well if you're a well connected Politician those that may be tasked with policing and watching over us, are actively protecting their wrongdoing task masters and their mates you have nothing to fear.
The Daily Mail are running excerpts from the Rochdale MP's book. It's quite common for newspapers to serialise books from the great and the good that are found to be wanting or hypocritical and find themselves inside.
When organised religions are getting grief about historic, and not so historic sex crimes against minors why shouldn't everyone else doing it?
If our elected representatives and the authorities will keep people like Cyril Smith in power and position, what won't they do to keep power and ensure their own survival?
Edited by carinaman on Sunday 13th April 09:36
The idea of my original post was a rather belated, and in essence pathetic, rant against 'the establishment'.
IF WHAT IS SAID IN THE BOOK IS TRUE -
Given the timing of the first revelations I have little doubt that the 'security of the nation' was the excuse used to justify the cover-up. Then, the assumption is, that habit took over and MPs were seen as untouchable.
The establishment will defend itself. Harman's attempt to try and ensure that MPs fiddling expenses was covered up by keeping them secret. It is but a small step from there to keeping kiddy fiddling covered up. The good on the nation, don't you know.
Real newspapers have done there bit to expose what goes on but the government's first reaction to the fourth estate doing what it is supposed to do was, after Harman of course, to 'investigate' the press and try and ensure that they were independent.
The expenses scandal is up there with Watergate in many ways. The Telegraph should be showered with awards for what it has done, and continues to do. Leveson is an attempt to ensure that such revelations do not see the light of day in the future. The excuse of hacking being the motivator is a nonsense as we have a number of people on trial for just such offences at the moment. Leveson will do nothing to stop that, nor, or course, was it intended to.
From what I experienced and what I later gathered - which might be wrong of course - my feeling is that the cover-up of Smith came from on high. And those who organised it knew full well what he was doing and, incredibly, what he would continue to do, but they used their power and authority to ensure that this, one of the most dreadful of crimes, torture of children, was allowed to continue.
Information that can't go up in the police can go to the press. But, for reasons unknown, the initial exposure was ignored. The later information was fed to the press, but again there was little response.
I know who were the 'masterminds' of the protection of Smith. It doesn't take an awful lot of working out. Indeed those tasked with protecting him did a wonderful job. A unit in an independent police force was closed, the penalty for getting too much evidence.
Even now - and this is not a criticism of Haymarket in any way, indeed I think they have been very brave at times with what they allow - names are removed from threads despite it being common knowledge that they were involved. But, of course, the law in this country means that just because it has been published before unchallenged, it does not mean that it can be published again unhindered.
Whether the cases, the many, many cases, against Smith can be proved is of no consequence, apart from the victims' points of view probably, because the bloke is dead and can no longer be harmed in any way. He has, in every way, got away with the systematic torture of the most vulnerable in society. What can come out of this is some chance that it won't happen in future. Safeguards need to be put in place, but the opposite seems to be happening. Leveson is a green light to those with power and the money to use the courts, or even threaten to use the courts, to stop the press publishing the truth.
Someone exposed in, for instance, the Eye will be able to sue the paper and, if they lose, the Eye might, and probably will, have to pay their own legal expenses and those of the litigant, this under Leveson.
Those taking over Cyril Smith's mantel, in parliament, in power and with money, will continue to offend, the only difference is that despite the knowledge of the involvement in the cover up, those tasked to protect the rich and powerful, be they Special Branch, MI5 or the libel courts, will carry on doing what they are doing untouched, unchanged and unchallenged.
We rail against priests, and for good reason. Smith, and those who protected him and allowed him to continue with his vile predilections are the equivalent in this country.
That is:
IF WHAT IS SAID IN THE BOOK IS TRUE REMEMBER -
That enough of a rant against the establishment?
I have to admit, it is not enough for me.
Derek Smith said:
Desperately sad and depressing stuff...
That enough of a rant against the establishment?
I have to admit, it is not enough for me.
No, not nearly enough is it. Especially if some of those who protected that vermin from, not only punishment, but also from being stopped before how many others could be abused, are still alive, or in positions of authority, still.That enough of a rant against the establishment?
I have to admit, it is not enough for me.
If some evidence/names still cannot be published in the UK for fear of legal repercussions, is there any way/anywhere they could be named and asked to account for the truth of their role/of suspicions against them abroad?
I have a box all to myself in the DM report on Smith today. I'm quoted but just about everything in it is either false or distorted.
If I'd known, when speaking with the researcher of the book, that it was going to be in the DM I would not have said anything.
I know all papers do it, and some TV news, but it really irritates when it happens to you.
It has been used for an attack on the police. All sorts of implications are made. Almost makes you want to support Leveson.
Well, perhaps not.
If I'd known, when speaking with the researcher of the book, that it was going to be in the DM I would not have said anything.
I know all papers do it, and some TV news, but it really irritates when it happens to you.
It has been used for an attack on the police. All sorts of implications are made. Almost makes you want to support Leveson.
Well, perhaps not.
I've read it Derek and as much as I'd love to criticise them the DM have made it pretty clear that the police wanted to prosecute him but were thwarted in their efforts by the DPP or Home Sec.
How do you reckon to the man you've called Biggs? I know who you mean as do a lot of others judging by the fact that if you put his name into Google the suggestions made by the autocomplete function include "xxxx xxxxxxx paedophile" and "xxxx xxxxxxx elm guest house". Do you think he will ever be prosecuted or will we go through all this again in another few years?
How do you reckon to the man you've called Biggs? I know who you mean as do a lot of others judging by the fact that if you put his name into Google the suggestions made by the autocomplete function include "xxxx xxxxxxx paedophile" and "xxxx xxxxxxx elm guest house". Do you think he will ever be prosecuted or will we go through all this again in another few years?
rohrl said:
I've read it Derek and as much as I'd love to criticise them the DM have made it pretty clear that the police wanted to prosecute him but were thwarted in their efforts by the DPP or Home Sec.
How do you reckon to the man you've called Biggs? I know who you mean as do a lot of others judging by the fact that if you put his name into Google the suggestions made by the autocomplete function include "xxxx xxxxxxx paedophile" and "xxxx xxxxxxx elm guest house". Do you think he will ever be prosecuted or will we go through all this again in another few years?
It's a bit of a 'Slog' digging this up, though it takes less than 30 seconds to do...How do you reckon to the man you've called Biggs? I know who you mean as do a lot of others judging by the fact that if you put his name into Google the suggestions made by the autocomplete function include "xxxx xxxxxxx paedophile" and "xxxx xxxxxxx elm guest house". Do you think he will ever be prosecuted or will we go through all this again in another few years?
These characters were constants in my youth, being interested in politics (not as a resident of a Care Home (sic)) and I remember well the shock of Smith being named as under such suspicion, omnipresent as the fat megalomaniac was. The other fat, slimy slug was often the butt of ( related) jibes but that seemed - at the time - as being probably unfair and based just on his appearance and manner. So one of those "comes as a surprise but probably not much of one" things.
If Smith can be named as being suspected of these things why, if the other character is also suspected, can it not be recorded as such? So, if I wrote, "Mr X is suspected of..." if he is but hasn't been proven to be guilty, given the comment does not say he actually is, just suspected, which he is!
FwdConvert said:
It's a bit of a 'Slog' digging this up, though it takes less than 30 seconds to do...
These characters were constants in my youth, being interested in politics (not as a resident of a Care Home (sic)) and I remember well the shock of Smith being named as under such suspicion, omnipresent as the fat megalomaniac was. The other fat, slimy slug was often the butt of ( related) jibes but that seemed - at the time - as being probably unfair and based just on his appearance and manner. So one of those "comes as a surprise but probably not much of one" things.
If Smith can be named as being suspected of these things why, if the other character is also suspected, can it not be recorded as such? So, if I wrote, "Mr X is suspected of..." if he is but hasn't been proven to be guilty, given the comment does not say he actually is, just suspected, which he is!
If you discovered that X was suspected of an offence by reading the reports online and in the papers then there is no problem with that, subject to official confirmation of course. However, I have admitted to having spoken with a chap on the enquiry. If I suggest that there was ample, overwhelming in fact, evidence against X then it is somewhat different.These characters were constants in my youth, being interested in politics (not as a resident of a Care Home (sic)) and I remember well the shock of Smith being named as under such suspicion, omnipresent as the fat megalomaniac was. The other fat, slimy slug was often the butt of ( related) jibes but that seemed - at the time - as being probably unfair and based just on his appearance and manner. So one of those "comes as a surprise but probably not much of one" things.
If Smith can be named as being suspected of these things why, if the other character is also suspected, can it not be recorded as such? So, if I wrote, "Mr X is suspected of..." if he is but hasn't been proven to be guilty, given the comment does not say he actually is, just suspected, which he is!
Also there's little point. It is hardly a secret, but this is no defence to libel.
Clegg has mentioned this today, I'm told.
Bizarre. Seems there may have been involvement in crimes at the Elm Guest House in Barnes. A very close friend used to work with someone being investigated for crimes at that place too.
So Derek Smith was aware of Cyril Smith's behaviour, he may have visited Elm Guest House in Barnes, just as someone that used to work with a good friend of mine may have done.
We can get from Derek Smith to Derek Smith in five steps. Derek Smith, Cyril Smith, Another prominent adult being investigated for possible involvement at Elm House, my very good friend, me, Derek Smith.
So Derek Smith was aware of Cyril Smith's behaviour, he may have visited Elm Guest House in Barnes, just as someone that used to work with a good friend of mine may have done.
We can get from Derek Smith to Derek Smith in five steps. Derek Smith, Cyril Smith, Another prominent adult being investigated for possible involvement at Elm House, my very good friend, me, Derek Smith.
Some arguments become circular. The offences themselves are the story, followed very closely by the perpetrators, not the paper that reports them. It's said that these offences are not that prevalent and to report them and give them prominence, as in the DM, is somehow the trade mark of a 'rag' and itself worthy of ridicule. Slights of over-reporting and rabble rousing are made against the DM and regularly receive considerable support.
Over-reporting? Shouldn't reportage represent the sheer awfulness of the behaviour rather than its frequency? If papers like the DM dumbed it down or kept it quiet it would fold. When papers shye away from the unpleasant where are we then? This isn't a defence of the DM, but a question to it's detractors because, compared to it's circulation, they are in a tiny minority. Wouldn't be political would it?
Over-reporting? Shouldn't reportage represent the sheer awfulness of the behaviour rather than its frequency? If papers like the DM dumbed it down or kept it quiet it would fold. When papers shye away from the unpleasant where are we then? This isn't a defence of the DM, but a question to it's detractors because, compared to it's circulation, they are in a tiny minority. Wouldn't be political would it?
What strikes me most about this, admitting the surprise when household names and 'the great and the good' get mentioned for involvement in things like this, is how hard it is to get people to believe allegations even in the face of plenty of evidence and first hand testimony.
And the sheer awfulness of what they did/do and then how bizarre it is that others (even those not involved) work to protect them. To hush it up, hide their identity, pressure those who would reveal their sordid activities, for political, financial, national interests or whatever. Some of the protectors must be parents; how can they protect people like Smith and the front cover political star of a Private Eye cover some while ago, worst still do so when they know it means they can carry on?
It does make you wonder how high this goes. A former PM has often been mentioned as one involved in covering up 'bad things', or even of direct involvement as a participant; MPs; an M15 official; members of the legal system and more. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, generally, except for TV and movies, but I can't help thinking this story has elements that remind me of 'Red Riding' or the sort of TV thriller - like the recent David Hare trilogy about a corrupt PM and the power wielded to protect him - that makes you think, very intriguing but it couldn't happen in reality.
And the sheer awfulness of what they did/do and then how bizarre it is that others (even those not involved) work to protect them. To hush it up, hide their identity, pressure those who would reveal their sordid activities, for political, financial, national interests or whatever. Some of the protectors must be parents; how can they protect people like Smith and the front cover political star of a Private Eye cover some while ago, worst still do so when they know it means they can carry on?
It does make you wonder how high this goes. A former PM has often been mentioned as one involved in covering up 'bad things', or even of direct involvement as a participant; MPs; an M15 official; members of the legal system and more. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, generally, except for TV and movies, but I can't help thinking this story has elements that remind me of 'Red Riding' or the sort of TV thriller - like the recent David Hare trilogy about a corrupt PM and the power wielded to protect him - that makes you think, very intriguing but it couldn't happen in reality.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff