Operation Trojan Horse

[BlackLabel]

If you give parents too much power in the running of schools then what else do you expect. Experienced head teachers should run schools and not parents. You would not give patients similar amounts of power to run the NHS so why are schools any different?

Then again I'm not a parent so perhaps my views are in the minority.

[eldar]

Pickled Piper said:

Anyway, let's hear it from the appologists and those in denial. It always makes for amusing reading.

Personally, I'd rather wait for evidence, which an investigation should provide to prove or disprove the allegations.

[Pickled Piper]

Jasandjules said:

Inspectors will go in? Are they expecting any such teaching to continue whilst there is some official bloke in the room watching?

No but they will get a feel for the ethos of the school by being there. They will be able to establish if the allegations are just ludicrous or worthy of further investigation. They also get to meet and interview members of staff, parents and pupils. They will also go through records to establish if correct procedure has been followed in all areas; recruitment, financial management, election of governors etc.The types of school visits that have been organised. names and affiliations of guest speakers.They can also look though exercise books to see what the children have been taught and if it is in keeping with the National Curriculum.

[RedTrident]

Pickled Piper said:

Chlamydia said:

RedTrident said:

What type of complaints? That people were being elected onto school governing bodies that other parents were not happy about? The existing governing system in most schools allows for parents to join the governing body. Once nominations are received all the other parents get a chance to vote. If anything, as is often the case, if anyone 'dodgy' gets in it is usually a consequence of apathy from the wider group of parents.

The second complaint I can think of is that the governing bodies are influencing the curriculum and appointment of staff. Unless they're doing something illegal then all they are doing here is fulfilling their roles. I'd have expected at least one industrial tribunal from someone who failed to get a job and/or was hounded out because their religion didn't fit.

Have I missed something? Looking forward to see what the actual evidence is and what the investigation reports.

In your haste to imply that this is based on race or religion you've missed the minor detail that some of the people making these claims are themselves Muslims, uncomfortable with what they see as infiltration by extremists.

Indeed. Currently over 200 complaints. Some Muslim parents and a local Muslim MP have come out and stated that it is most definitely going on and has been for many years.

Several industrial tribunals have cited these cases and at least one was upheld.

Counter terrorism are involved because several of those implicated are directly linked to banned organisations.

Government organisations have been walking on egg shells for many years and ignoring the the obvious. The letter may or may not have been genuine. However, it's served it's purpose by giving many people the courage to come forward.

One news report openly states that the alleged instigators are all Muslim of Pakistani origin.

Anyway, let's hear it from the appologists and those in denial. It always makes for amusing reading.

So what exactly do you think is going on PP?

Parents objecting to sex education? - Already exists across the board
Single sex education? - Alive and well in our public schools
Preference to recruiting staff from one religious group? - a tradition that's well established in our Catholic schools
Teaching of intolerance and hatred? Ofsted should have picked up on this, especially if its as widespread as the stories suggest. This can't have just happened overnight.

It reads like a conspiracy story to me. I'm not apologising for anything at all, I'm just finding it hard to believe that a secret society of extremist Muslims are taking over our schools. If there is something going on then I hope the DfE act immediately.

I've spent many years working with governance in civic organisations. I've always thought that having parents who are elected by a small % of their peers to govern a school really bizarre. Some of the more forward thinking schools actually advertise, interview and appoint in the way a private organisation would do. Regardless, I've always found that the school Principal to actually determine who comes into a school. If a representative of a banned organisation had come into an organisation I was involved with then the Principal would be out of a job.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'll be following this story closely.

[MajorProblem]

FredClogs said:

Religion has played a massive part in our education system since forever, it's a bit hypocritical to discriminate between religious brands.

It's also a bit racist to suggest any muslim parents who wish to get involved in their local school are doing it to create 8 year old suicide bombers.

You say that but in my area they've already mastered wearing rucksacks.

[andygo]

Slightly different, but a close friend of my wife is involved professionlly in school catering for a county council.

A few years ago big efforts were made to accommodate the wishes of the burgeoning Muslim population to accommodate their dietary requirements.

Nowadays the Muslims have taken over a lot of various schools. Any Christian dietary requirements are totally ignored. All food must conform to Halal, whilst the old British pork sausage, bacon etc are banned.

The friend says its a sad state of affairs.

[Fittster]

andygo said:

Any Christian dietary requirements are totally ignored.

What are Christian dietary requirements?

The only thing that comes to mind is fish on Fridays.

[10 Pence Short]

RedTrident said:

I'm just finding it hard to believe that a secret society of extremist Muslims are taking over our schools.

Why?

It's well documented that extremist preachers have had strong followings in various parts of the country. We know people have been radicalised and found themselves fighting on foreign shores or attacking our own people.

Is it such a hard stretch to imagine people with those leanings would seek to influence children when they're at their most sponge like?

It sounds utterly logical to me.

[RedTrident]

10 Pence Short said:

RedTrident said:

I'm just finding it hard to believe that a secret society of extremist Muslims are taking over our schools.

Why?

It's well documented that extremist preachers have had strong followings in various parts of the country. We know people have been radicalised and found themselves fighting on foreign shores or attacking our own people.

Is it such a hard stretch to imagine people with those leanings would seek to influence children when they're at their most sponge like?

It sounds utterly logical to me.

I agree with you that it sounds like the ideal place to start. But there would have to have been a catastrophic failure in all the checks that exist over a sustained period of time for this to have happened across 25 schools and even cities. Also, those doing it would have to be highly skilled and organised and unlike the usual extremists we come across, they would have to have legitimacy in existing mainstream institutions.

Its the specifics that interest me. The extremist preacher in school for instance, the separation of boys and girls where the girls are made to feel inferior, the introduction of certain text books, the detail of the curriculum - for example the omission of Music from the curriculum, the recruitment and favouritism towards staff who share a religious ideology, the uniform promoting/insisting on a certain conservative dress code. I'd want to see the investigation uncover instances like this that are replicated across schools.

Stuff like closing for Eid, serving halal food, allowing parents to opt out of sex education, single gender classes, single gender PE classes (I remember this as a feature in a mixed mainstream comprehensive I went to 30 years ago) are not signs of extremists taking over.

Of course the irony here is that the DfE also separately fund Muslim faith schools across the country where many of the specific concerns I make reference to are evident and no one seems interested in those. I suppose the difference is if parents want to send their children to these schools then they can do but they shouldn't be a feature of a 'normal' school. I'd personally rather not see this practice anywhere regardless of whether the State pays for it or not.

[Pickled Piper]

RedTrident said:

So what exactly do you think is going on PP?

Good question.

In my experience a large group or community with a value system rooted in rural Pakistan feel uncomfortable with the "Western and liberal" Education that their children are receiving. Initial requests are for changes to meet their dietary requirements, time off for religious festival etc. These are all reasonable requests and readily granted at most state schools. The community is held together by religious values, pressures and ancestral loyalties from "back home". Consequently, once the numbers exceed a certain level, those performing the basic checks and balances are from the same community and invariably motivated by the same loyalties. Once a tipping point is reached , you see an exodus of pupils and staff not from the same community or with differing values. Hence why for several of these schools the pupils are 100% Muslim.

There is a National shortage of community and Parent Governors. In many schools getting elected just means putting your name forward. It's not difficult and even if the system is functioning correctly, there is little in the way of checks and balances. The board of Governors has complete control over "hiring and firing" and many other aspects of how the schools are run.

Once the above has been achieved, it's fertile ground for extremists and those that seek to manipulate the system.

i personally think the "Extremism" investigation will amount to very little. However, I am very sure that the investigations will find wholesale and systematic failures that have allowed manipulation of the running of the schools .

[Digga]

Pickled Piper said:

In my experience a large group or community with a value system rooted in rural Pakistan feel uncomfortable with the "Western and liberal" Education that their children are receiving.

Interesting post.

As you and others have said, the more progressive parents, Muslim or otherwise, will eventually clash with these ultra-conservative (backward?) ideals, but I also wonder if, in some isolated cases, there may well be more to it. Certainly, what this does show is the complete lack of reality that our immigration system had/has in regard to bringing immigrants who want to be British here and ensuring they are engaged and integrated with society.

[scenario8]

I'm a little surprised that this dude's appointment to chair the investigation hasn't been commented upon here today (although i note a UKIP thread has provided fuel to the usual angry mob instead).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27...

I'm sure he's a very capable man but is he honestly the "best" available person for this job? There's no-one with a less provocative or inflammatory cv in a position to investigate? Maybe I'm wrong. Let's hope we eventually get to the bottom of this and the situation isn't inflamed further.

[voyds9]

Pickled Piper said:

Good question.

In my experience a large group or community with a value system rooted in rural Pakistan feel uncomfortable with the "Western and liberal" Education that their children are receiving.

They are that uncomfortable that their numbers have doubled in last 10 years.

Taken as a whole, education, law, alcohol, working conditions etc they seem to be trying to turn the UK into the country they left.

[NicD]

scenario8 said:

I'm a little surprised that this dude's appointment to chair the investigation hasn't been commented upon here today (although i note a UKIP thread has provided fuel to the usual angry mob instead).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27...

I'm sure he's a very capable man but is he honestly the "best" available person for this job? There's no-one with a less provocative or inflammatory cv in a position to investigate? Maybe I'm wrong. Let's hope we eventually get to the bottom of this and the situation isn't inflamed further.

He seems the perfect candidate. Experienced anti-terrorism investigator.

Good news.

rather better than a gravy train liberal barrister.

[Wacky Racer]

MajorProblem said:

FredClogs said:

Religion has played a massive part in our education system since forever, it's a bit hypocritical to discriminate between religious brands.

It's also a bit racist to suggest any muslim parents who wish to get involved in their local school are doing it to create 8 year old suicide bombers.

You say that but in my area they've already mastered wearing rucksacks.

Make sure you and your family have some good life insurance.......

[civicduty]

FFS send the lot of them packing.

[longblackcoat]

civicduty said:

FFS send the lot of them packing.

Who are the 'them' you'd send packing?

[Pickled Piper]

NicD said:

scenario8 said:

I'm a little surprised that this dude's appointment to chair the investigation hasn't been commented upon here today (although i note a UKIP thread has provided fuel to the usual angry mob instead).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-27...

I'm sure he's a very capable man but is he honestly the "best" available person for this job? There's no-one with a less provocative or inflammatory cv in a position to investigate? Maybe I'm wrong. Let's hope we eventually get to the bottom of this and the situation isn't inflamed further.

He seems the perfect candidate. Experienced anti-terrorism investigator.

Good news.

rather better than a gravy train liberal barrister.

Gove was in a difficult position here. Had he appointed a lefty liberal type, who would have believed him if he declared "nothing to see here"?

Inflammatory? probably a bit. But very capable and experienced senior Plod. If his investigation gives the schools the "all clear" no one is going to argue.

[Mr_B]

RedTrident said:

10 Pence Short said:

RedTrident said:

I'm just finding it hard to believe that a secret society of extremist Muslims are taking over our schools.

Why?

It's well documented that extremist preachers have had strong followings in various parts of the country. We know people have been radicalised and found themselves fighting on foreign shores or attacking our own people.

Is it such a hard stretch to imagine people with those leanings would seek to influence children when they're at their most sponge like?

It sounds utterly logical to me.

I agree with you that it sounds like the ideal place to start. But there would have to have been a catastrophic failure in all the checks that exist over a sustained period of time for this to have happened across 25 schools and even cities. Also, those doing it would have to be highly skilled and organised and unlike the usual extremists we come across, they would have to have legitimacy in existing mainstream institutions.

Its the specifics that interest me. The extremist preacher in school for instance, the separation of boys and girls where the girls are made to feel inferior, the introduction of certain text books, the detail of the curriculum - for example the omission of Music from the curriculum, the recruitment and favouritism towards staff who share a religious ideology, the uniform promoting/insisting on a certain conservative dress code. I'd want to see the investigation uncover instances like this that are replicated across schools.

Stuff like closing for Eid, serving halal food, allowing parents to opt out of sex education, single gender classes, single gender PE classes (I remember this as a feature in a mixed mainstream comprehensive I went to 30 years ago) are not signs of extremists taking over.

Of course the irony here is that the DfE also separately fund Muslim faith schools across the country where many of the specific concerns I make reference to are evident and no one seems interested in those. I suppose the difference is if parents want to send their children to these schools then they can do but they shouldn't be a feature of a 'normal' school. I'd personally rather not see this practice anywhere regardless of whether the State pays for it or not.

Sticking kids in Burkas and putting "we as Muslims oppose the lifestyle of the West" on your schools website may have given a clue that they couldn't give a fk about anything other than their own agenda.

[gpo746]

Pickled Piper said:

Chlamydia said:

RedTrident said:

What type of complaints? That people were being elected onto school governing bodies that other parents were not happy about? The existing governing system in most schools allows for parents to join the governing body. Once nominations are received all the other parents get a chance to vote. If anything, as is often the case, if anyone 'dodgy' gets in it is usually a consequence of apathy from the wider group of parents.

The second complaint I can think of is that the governing bodies are influencing the curriculum and appointment of staff. Unless they're doing something illegal then all they are doing here is fulfilling their roles. I'd have expected at least one industrial tribunal from someone who failed to get a job and/or was hounded out because their religion didn't fit.

Have I missed something? Looking forward to see what the actual evidence is and what the investigation reports.

In your haste to imply that this is based on race or religion you've missed the minor detail that some of the people making these claims are themselves Muslims, uncomfortable with what they see as infiltration by extremists.

Indeed. Currently over 200 complaints. Some Muslim parents and a local Muslim MP have come out and stated that it is most definitely going on and has been for many years.

Several industrial tribunals have cited these cases and at least one was upheld.

Counter terrorism are involved because several of those implicated are directly linked to banned organisations.

Government organisations have been walking on egg shells for many years and ignoring the the obvious. The letter may or may not have been genuine. However, it's served it's purpose by giving many people the courage to come forward.

One news report openly states that the alleged instigators are all Muslim of Pakistani origin.

Anyway, let's hear it from the appologists and those in denial. It always makes for amusing reading.

+1
Taking of the denialists one has been awfully quiet. I actually wonder if he has gone off to a terrorist training camp somewhere or been shot in a foreign country.