Terrible ferry tragedy off South Korea

[XJ Flyer]

kev1974 said:

Yep there is footage on some sites of the rescue under way with what looks like people inside waiting for rescuers to come and break the windows, but the ship is gradually slipping underwater with massive plumes of displaced water flying up as the air rushes out of what doorways are open

Horrible

If I'm ever on a sinking ferry, sod it, I'm getting to an outdoor deck near one of the simple inflatable life raft types (that doesn't need to be virtually craned off the ship etc) regardless of what any announcements and no entry signs are saying.

I've always thought the idea of having to go to an emergency 'muster station' that's usually inside below decks and which could become untenable and obviously then possibly/probably need to be evacuated quickly and in which the escape routes could become unusable at an unpredictable point makes no sense.Especially in the case of already being outside on the decks.When the more sensible course of action would be all passengers to make their way directly to the boat decks on hearing an emergency warning with all lifesaving equipment like lifejackets kept outside on the relevant decks for allocation by the crew.

Whereas what seems to be the case under current regs is that passengers are sent/left/kept below/inside in hazardous situations with at least some examples of members of the crew making their escape while the naive passengers sit in the line of danger.Until reality dawns that it's no good relying on the crew to know best and/or put the passengers safe evacuation above their own.

Having said that I'd rather take my chances on a sinking ship than have to sit and wait for the inevitable in the case of a plane that's coming down with no way out and nowhere to run.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 18th April 02:40

[McWigglebum4th]

XJ Flyer said:

I've always thought the idea of having to go to an emergency 'muster station' that's usually inside below decks and which could become untenable and obviously then possibly/probably need to be evacuated quickly and in which the escape routes could become unusable at an unpredictable point makes no sense.Especially in the case of already being outside on the decks.When the more sensible course of action would be all passengers to make their way directly to the boat decks on hearing an emergency warning with all lifesaving equipment like lifejackets kept outside on the relevant decks for allocation by the crew.

Whereas what seems to be the case under current regs is that passengers are sent/left/kept below/inside in hazardous situations with at least some examples of members of the crew making their escape while the naive passengers sit in the line of danger.Until reality dawns that it's no good relying on the crew to know best and/or put the passengers safe evacuation above their own.

There is sound logic behind keeping the passengers inside

1 No exposure to unpleasant conditions
2 It allows you to prepare the boats without passengers making sucidal leaps in a boat before it is properly prepared for boarding

The regualtions don't need changing

Crews need to follow them

[Le TVR]

Lost soul said:

He could have told them to muster on the decks

OH worked for Townsend Thoresen in the 80s. I remember her asking a Purser once about muster stations. His honest reply was that a RoRo ferry was going over in 30 seconds to a minute and just to get the fk outside as fast as possible and forget any idea of muster stations. This was two years before the Herald went over.

[so called]

McWigglebum4th said:

There is sound logic behind keeping the passengers inside

1 No exposure to unpleasant conditions
2 ........without passengers making sucidal leaps ......

The regualtions don't need changing

Unpleasant conditions would be the last reason to argue against unnecessary risk.
The regulations as you describe them don't work every time as we keep seeing so they need to change to take account of the cowardly crew factor.
I don't mean all crew members
Regulations are not the same world wide. Not even the same across Europe.

[Dan_1981]

Is this BBC timeline accurate? Or are these pictures not indicative of the times mentioned?



If so why was a distress signal only raised when the vessel is half submersed?

And an evacuation not given until it seems to be almost completely rolled?

[WinstonWolf]

McWigglebum4th said:

XJ Flyer said:

I've always thought the idea of having to go to an emergency 'muster station' that's usually inside below decks and which could become untenable and obviously then possibly/probably need to be evacuated quickly and in which the escape routes could become unusable at an unpredictable point makes no sense.Especially in the case of already being outside on the decks.When the more sensible course of action would be all passengers to make their way directly to the boat decks on hearing an emergency warning with all lifesaving equipment like lifejackets kept outside on the relevant decks for allocation by the crew.

Whereas what seems to be the case under current regs is that passengers are sent/left/kept below/inside in hazardous situations with at least some examples of members of the crew making their escape while the naive passengers sit in the line of danger.Until reality dawns that it's no good relying on the crew to know best and/or put the passengers safe evacuation above their own.

There is sound logic behind keeping the passengers inside

1 No exposure to unpleasant conditions
2 It allows you to prepare the boats without passengers making sucidal leaps in a boat before it is properly prepared for boarding

The regualtions don't need changing

Crews need to follow them

The captan did, he prepared his lifeboat and left people to die on his ship.

I thought there was a strict code about this sort of thing, the captain is the last one off.

[McWigglebum4th]

Dan_1981 said:

Is this BBC timeline accurate? Or are these pictures not indicative of the times mentioned?



If so why was a distress signal only raised when the vessel is half submersed?

And an evacuation not given until it seems to be almost completely rolled?

While the BBC maybe over a higher quality then many media outlets they are still stuffed full of ex media students

or to give them their more normal label

Morons

[MBBlat]

so called said:

Unpleasant conditions would be the last reason to argue against unnecessary risk.
The regulations as you describe them don't work every time as we keep seeing so they need to change to take account of the cowardly crew factor.
I don't mean all crew members
Regulations are not the same world wide. Not even the same across Europe.

The regulations are part of SOLAS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOLAS_Convention - which is international.
Muster stations - passengers are supposed to be called to these as soon as something goes wrong. They are inside for protection from the elements in case the emergency doesn't require immediate evacuation (ie fire or engine failure) because its widely accepted that if the ship is not in immediate danger of sinking its better to stay on the ship than evacuate.
Similar to Costa Concordia its not so much a failure of the regulations & standards, more a failure of the captian/crew to adhere to best practice.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

The vice principle of the high school has just been found hanged.

[Laurel Green]

Just heard this on LBC. Apparently he was on board and rescued from the ferry.

ETA: Clicky

Edited by Laurel Green on Friday 18th April 11:00

[redtwin]

sooperscoop said:

I don't want to rag on the South Koreans, as I work with them and they are some really nice people. But they do, as a culture, have a Confusianism-based hierarchical system that leads them to obey instructions and not admit failure. That's a great thing when you turning your country from a agricultural backwater into a first-world industrial powerhouse, but not so much when your ferry is sinking.

Koreans have three loyalties: Korea, their family, and their employer. And f**k everyone else.

That is a horrible generalisation, but when you're lying in the street after an accident and they're just driving and walking past you, it suddenly becomes clear.

I suspect we may have very differing views on what constitutes a nice person.

[anonymous-user]

sooperscoop said:

I don't want to rag on the South Koreans, as I work with them and they are some really nice people. But they do, as a culture, have a Confusianism-based hierarchical system that leads them to obey instructions and not admit failure. That's a great thing when you turning your country from a agricultural backwater into a first-world industrial powerhouse, but not so much when your ferry is sinking.

Koreans have three loyalties: Korea, their family, and their employer. And f**k everyone else.

That is a horrible generalisation, but when you're lying in the street after an accident and they're just driving and walking past you, it suddenly becomes clear.

'Arms fold inward' is the rough translation from a Korean saying - basically the above.

[Beati Dogu]

Le TVR said:

OH worked for Townsend Thoresen in the 80s. I remember her asking a Purser once about muster stations. His honest reply was that a RoRo ferry was going over in 30 seconds to a minute and just to get the fk outside as fast as possible and forget any idea of muster stations. This was two years before the Herald went over.

Roll-On, Roll-Over as they're known.

We were on a cross channel ferry in the 80s when it stopped to rescue a family from a yacht that was in difficulty. Even as a kid I remember being surprised by just how long it took them to prepare and lower a lifeboat down the side of the ship. It was daylight, the ship vertical, the weather clear and the sea calm as well.

[XJ Flyer]

McWigglebum4th said:

XJ Flyer said:

I've always thought the idea of having to go to an emergency 'muster station' that's usually inside below decks and which could become untenable and obviously then possibly/probably need to be evacuated quickly and in which the escape routes could become unusable at an unpredictable point makes no sense.Especially in the case of already being outside on the decks.When the more sensible course of action would be all passengers to make their way directly to the boat decks on hearing an emergency warning with all lifesaving equipment like lifejackets kept outside on the relevant decks for allocation by the crew.

Whereas what seems to be the case under current regs is that passengers are sent/left/kept below/inside in hazardous situations with at least some examples of members of the crew making their escape while the naive passengers sit in the line of danger.Until reality dawns that it's no good relying on the crew to know best and/or put the passengers safe evacuation above their own.

There is sound logic behind keeping the passengers inside

1 No exposure to unpleasant conditions
2 It allows you to prepare the boats without passengers making sucidal leaps in a boat before it is properly prepared for boarding

The regualtions don't need changing

Crews need to follow them

Then there's the other logic which says that no one knows exactly how long the thing will stay afloat or wether it will stay upright or turn over in seconds/minutes or wether a fire will suddenly change from being manageable to being totally out of control to the point where it cuts off the escape routes from the 'muster stations' inside etc etc etc.In which case waiting inside to avoid those 'unpleasant conditions' outside while waiting for the boats to be 'prepared' doesn't seem so logical.Whereas at worst a 'suicidal' leap into the water and then worry about finding a boat or raft to get into after,seems to be the better option.In general if a house is on fire you don't wait inside you get outside and make your escape ASAP and that's how the emergency prodedure on a ship should work too.

[XJ Flyer]

MBBlat said:

so called said:

Unpleasant conditions would be the last reason to argue against unnecessary risk.
The regulations as you describe them don't work every time as we keep seeing so they need to change to take account of the cowardly crew factor.
I don't mean all crew members
Regulations are not the same world wide. Not even the same across Europe.

The regulations are part of SOLAS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOLAS_Convention - which is international.
Muster stations - passengers are supposed to be called to these as soon as something goes wrong. They are inside for protection from the elements in case the emergency doesn't require immediate evacuation (ie fire or engine failure) because its widely accepted that if the ship is not in immediate danger of sinking its better to stay on the ship than evacuate.
Similar to Costa Concordia its not so much a failure of the regulations & standards, more a failure of the captian/crew to adhere to best practice.

It seems obvious that if a ship is taking on water that can't be controlled and/or listing beyond it's design limits then it's in immediate danger of rolling over and/or sinking.While fire,especially on a ship,can be unpredictable.The idea of keeping people inside in such situations should be seen as no different to doing so in a case of emergency in a building on land.IE emergency prodedure on a ship should be keep people outside as close to the life boats as possible while they're being prepared.With the worst case scenario possibility of having to tell people to just jump into the water and rely on their life jackets and sorting out getting into a boat or being rescued after.

[McWigglebum4th]

XJ Flyer said:

Then there's the other logic which says that no one knows exactly how long the thing will stay afloat or wether it will stay upright or turn over in seconds/minutes or wether a fire will suddenly change from being manageable to being totally out of control to the point where it cuts off the escape routes from the 'muster stations' inside etc etc etc.In which case waiting inside to avoid those 'unpleasant conditions' outside while waiting for the boats to be 'prepared' doesn't seem so logical.Whereas at worst a 'suicidal' leap into the water and then worry about finding a boat or raft to get into after,seems to be the better option.

In general if a house is on fire you don't wait inside you get outside and make your escape ASAP and that's how the emergency prodedure on a ship should work too.

A ship is not a house

Houses tend not be surrounded 1000s of miles of death.

Run outside you house and you will get cold and wet

Jump off a ship and more then likely you will catch a case of death.


I know that i should bow to your superior armchair knowledge where i I know nothing after working on ships of all shapes and sizes for 20 years

[B17NNS]

McWigglebum4th said:

1000s of miles of death.

McWigglebum4th said:

you will catch a case of death.

Not a fan of the sea then?

[XJ Flyer]

McWigglebum4th said:

XJ Flyer said:

Then there's the other logic which says that no one knows exactly how long the thing will stay afloat or wether it will stay upright or turn over in seconds/minutes or wether a fire will suddenly change from being manageable to being totally out of control to the point where it cuts off the escape routes from the 'muster stations' inside etc etc etc.In which case waiting inside to avoid those 'unpleasant conditions' outside while waiting for the boats to be 'prepared' doesn't seem so logical.Whereas at worst a 'suicidal' leap into the water and then worry about finding a boat or raft to get into after,seems to be the better option.

In general if a house is on fire you don't wait inside you get outside and make your escape ASAP and that's how the emergency prodedure on a ship should work too.

A ship is not a house

Houses tend not be surrounded 1000s of miles of death.

Run outside you house and you will get cold and wet

Jump off a ship and more then likely you will catch a case of death.


I know that i should bow to your superior armchair knowledge where i I know nothing after working on ships of all shapes and sizes for 20 years

So in this case you're saying that you'd have preferred to take your chances by staying inside the ship,than wait outside on deck until it's obvious that it's going over in which case it's time to jump into those 'thousands of miles of death'.As for me I've been travelling on ships regularly since the 1970's including trans Atlantic ironically three of which were the Juliana which became the Moby Prince,the Herald,and the Boccaccio.In all cases I can guarantee that I wouldn't be waiting inside on a burning or sinking ship for a crew member to tell me to get out.

[Laurel Green]

South Korea seeks arrest of Sewol ferry captain.

Clicky.

[crazy about cars]

Shouldn't the captain be the last person leaving a sinking vessel?