The rich - poor gap
Discussion
fblm said:
Balls. Ignoring the shipping business he inherited, my neighbour, A, has probably made more money on his car collection than I will ever earn total in my entire life (double figures of 250's and 275's!) By your logic, B, thats me, has no incentive to ever work again; I'd actually argue the exact opposite is true.
I agree, I see someone with more than me, I'm motivated to get what they have. I take a look at myself, analyse what I need to change, what I need to be doing to get myself in that situation. I look at how I should be structuring my finances, what development/training I need and how to get it. I don't think FML, I'm going to give up and deep dive into the benefits system.
Rovinghawk said:
I don't think I'm the only one to work for what I have rather than inheriting it.
You haven't worked - you are evil landlord scum!Pitchforks at the ready!!
Just kidding and congrats.
Frankly I think that the advent of such an established and open BTL market has allowed far more rags to riches stories for regular chaps than almost any other wealth creation device in recent history (internet aside).
But you know - renting property to someone is basically slavery and you should be ashamed.
Rovinghawk said:
trashbat said:
Oversimplified, but you typically and inherently only become a landlord by having wealth
Coming up to age 30, I had pretty much just the clothes I stood up in (and a lot of tales starting "no s
t, there I was..............).Coming back to the real world, I worked my arse off. I bought some shares which paid off handsomely & used the money for a deposit on a rental house. More of the same & I now have a little collection of BTLs.
I don't think I'm the only one to work for what I have rather than inheriting it.
trashbat said:
you use that wealth to make profit from those who have less wealth.
Yes, but those people haven't taken the risks I have or made the sacrifices to get there that I have. You omit that tiny detail.trashbat said:
money flows from poor to rich without rich putting in any real effort.
When I've been on a roof at night in the pissing rain due to a leak, when I've given up a weekend break to fix an electrical problem that wouldn't wait, when I've juggled finances to make it work, when I've spent hours on bank paperwork & legal documents, your comment about little effort rings a bit hollow.If you think it's easy then step up & do it.
I would like you to consider this: when did you get best proportional return on your efforts? Was it when you "worked your arse off" from nothing, or once you had shares & houses?
If it was the latter, then that is my point: both that wealth begets more wealth, and that the more you have, the easier it is to accumulate. In there is a widening gap between rich and poor.
Nonetheless, well done for working towards personal success where many would have rested on laurels.
walm said:
You haven't worked - you are evil landlord scum!
Pitchforks at the ready!!
Just kidding and congrats.
Frankly I think that the advent of such an established and open BTL market has allowed far more rags to riches stories for regular chaps than almost any other wealth creation device in recent history (internet aside).
But you know - renting property to someone is basically slavery and you should be ashamed.
Maybe not, but I do think there's a societal issue with renting private property to those in receipt of housing benefit, as that means that one (working) person's tax is making another (working) person 'rich'. ('working' and 'rich' are, of course, relative terms).Pitchforks at the ready!!
Just kidding and congrats.
Frankly I think that the advent of such an established and open BTL market has allowed far more rags to riches stories for regular chaps than almost any other wealth creation device in recent history (internet aside).
But you know - renting property to someone is basically slavery and you should be ashamed.
fblm said:
turbobloke said:
Agreed.
The incentive to work hard for the future isn't enough though, it needs to be smart work as well as hard work and involve a measure of well-judged risk taking, since the biggest rewards don't just flow from effort...
No they mostly come from luck. LOLThe incentive to work hard for the future isn't enough though, it needs to be smart work as well as hard work and involve a measure of well-judged risk taking, since the biggest rewards don't just flow from effort...
Winning a euromillions multiple rollover can indeed help to widen the gap between the winner and most other people, but it's not 'fair' as not everyone wins it.
TTwiggy said:
walm said:
You haven't worked - you are evil landlord scum!
Pitchforks at the ready!!
Just kidding and congrats.
Frankly I think that the advent of such an established and open BTL market has allowed far more rags to riches stories for regular chaps than almost any other wealth creation device in recent history (internet aside).
But you know - renting property to someone is basically slavery and you should be ashamed.
Maybe not, but I do think there's a societal issue with renting private property to those in receipt of housing benefit, as that means that one (working) person's tax is making another (working) person 'rich'. ('working' and 'rich' are, of course, relative terms).Pitchforks at the ready!!
Just kidding and congrats.
Frankly I think that the advent of such an established and open BTL market has allowed far more rags to riches stories for regular chaps than almost any other wealth creation device in recent history (internet aside).
But you know - renting property to someone is basically slavery and you should be ashamed.
TTwiggy said:
Maybe not, but I do think there's a societal issue with renting private property to those in receipt of housing benefit, as that means that one (working) person's tax is making another (working) person 'rich'. ('working' and 'rich' are, of course, relative terms).
Yes and all those who feed people on benefits or sell them clothes should also be shot at dawn when the red tide rises.You and trashy seem obsessed with the evils of running one particular business - the business of offering shelter to other human beings.
I am clearly missing something because I simply cannot follow what makes renting a property to someone an inherently evil practice while say buying a factory that makes sporks and running it somehow the work of angels.
Sporks are great though. I do love sporks.
trashbat said:
...that is my point: both that wealth begets more wealth, and that the more you have, the easier it is to accumulate. In there is a widening gap between rich and poor.
young. poor. accumulate wealth. live longer. work longer. have fewer kids later. accumulate more wealth. old. wealthy. die. In there is a widening gap between rich and poor too. demographics innit.walm said:
TTwiggy said:
Maybe not, but I do think there's a societal issue with renting private property to those in receipt of housing benefit, as that means that one (working) person's tax is making another (working) person 'rich'. ('working' and 'rich' are, of course, relative terms).
Yes and all those who feed people on benefits or sell them clothes should also be shot at dawn when the red tide rises.You and trashy seem obsessed with the evils of running one particular business - the business of offering shelter to other human beings.
I am clearly missing something because I simply cannot follow what makes renting a property to someone an inherently evil practice while say buying a factory that makes sporks and running it somehow the work of angels.
Sporks are great though. I do love sporks.
Nowhere have I said that renting is 'evil' or even 'bad'. It's just a business, absolutely. And it's not the landlords' fault that there's not enough social housing. That's why I said it was a societal issue.
Your comparisons with food outlets and clothing stores won't wash though, as the difference is there's a specific benefit for those in need of help with housing.
trashbat said:
I would like you to consider this: when did you get best proportional return on your efforts? Was it when you "worked your arse off" from nothing, or once you had shares & houses?
I'm still working my arse off; once you make a bit more money, the percentage taken by the silent business partner (HMRC) increases substantially.I would like you to consider this:
If I can do it, so can many others. Many who dislike my BTL collection sneer during their evenings in the pub whilst I'm WMAO. If they really wanted to be higher up the tree they'd make at least a token effort to do so, but so many don't because envy is so much easier.
TTwiggy said:
Your comparisons with food outlets and clothing stores won't wash though, as the difference is there's a specific benefit for those in need of help with housing.
Apologies for the unfounded association. I am still confused though.Why is making a profit from a "specific benefit" worse than making a profit from other basic human needs such as food and clothing - even though they aren't specifically provided for... people have to buy them, no?
Someone surviving 100% on benefits who buys their undies from my Walm-pants(TM) start-up is still taking one other person's tax and making me rich!
turbobloke said:
Winning a euromillions multiple rollover can indeed help to widen the gap between the winner and most other people, but it's not 'fair' as not everyone wins it.
Rovinghawk said:
I would like you to consider this:
If I can do it, so can many others. Many who dislike my BTL collection sneer during their evenings in the pub whilst I'm WMAO. If they really wanted to be higher up the tree they'd make at least a token effort to do so, but so many don't because envy is so much easier.
Of course, and I haven't much time for those who lazily pass by opportunity, only those without. I merely argue that moving a given distance up the tree is of a difficulty proportional to how far down you are - and of course, that not everyone can be richer than each other. All that can change is the spread.If I can do it, so can many others. Many who dislike my BTL collection sneer during their evenings in the pub whilst I'm WMAO. If they really wanted to be higher up the tree they'd make at least a token effort to do so, but so many don't because envy is so much easier.
As for someone else's question as to why I have an issue specifically with BTL, I don't. I'd feel much the same if you (presumably not on your own) managed to profit by cornering the market on bread or vegetables or bits of Alfa Romeo trim.
Rovinghawk said:
trashbat said:
I would like you to consider this: when did you get best proportional return on your efforts? Was it when you "worked your arse off" from nothing, or once you had shares & houses?
I'm still working my arse off; once you make a bit more money, the percentage taken by the silent business partner (HMRC) increases substantially.I would like you to consider this:
If I can do it, so can many others. Many who dislike my BTL collection sneer during their evenings in the pub whilst I'm WMAO. If they really wanted to be higher up the tree they'd make at least a token effort to do so, but so many don't because envy is so much easier.
trashbat said:
As for someone else's question as to why I have an issue specifically with BTL, I don't. I'd feel much the same if you (presumably not on your own) managed to profit by cornering the market on bread or vegetables or bits of Alfa Romeo trim.
I agree that monopolies (which is presumably what you mean by "cornering the market") are a bad thing and need regulation etc...But how is the BTL market a monopoly?
It has barriers to entry sure, but they aren't insurmountable for many, as RH has shown.
walm said:
trashbat said:
As for someone else's question as to why I have an issue specifically with BTL, I don't. I'd feel much the same if you (presumably not on your own) managed to profit by cornering the market on bread or vegetables or bits of Alfa Romeo trim.
I agree that monopolies (which is presumably what you mean by "cornering the market") are a bad thing and need regulation etc...But how is the BTL market a monopoly?
It has barriers to entry sure, but they aren't insurmountable for many, as RH has shown.
I have issues with the monopoly in itself, but ignoring that completely, my real complaint is that it's a behaviour that has no meaningful contribution to anything beyond the individual. It feeds off your own economy and your own communities, doesn't generate a real product or advance any art, and spells economic and social disaster, whichever comes first. That's either by widening inequality as per this thread, or by turning too large a part of the economy inward like the worst possible configuration of 'the service economy'.
How do you fancy UK GDP being directly driven by house prices?
walm said:
trashbat said:
As for someone else's question as to why I have an issue specifically with BTL, I don't. I'd feel much the same if you (presumably not on your own) managed to profit by cornering the market on bread or vegetables or bits of Alfa Romeo trim.
I agree that monopolies (which is presumably what you mean by "cornering the market") are a bad thing and need regulation etc...But how is the BTL market a monopoly?
walm said:
It has barriers to entry sure, but they aren't insurmountable for many, as RH has shown.
If somebody works smart and hard and takes the risks needed to overcome those barriers, somebody else will say "it's not fair" because that's all they have to offer i.e. excuses.Forced equality of outcome isn't going to happen, so anyone expecting it will have a long and futile wait and another thread like this one will be along soon.
turbobloke said:
If somebody works smart and hard and takes the risks needed to overcome those barriers, somebody else will say "it's not fair" because that's all they have to offer i.e. excuses.
Forced equality of outcome isn't going to happen, so anyone expecting it will have a long and futile wait and another thread like this one will be along soon.
Forced equality of outcome isn't going to happen, so anyone expecting it will have a long and futile wait and another thread like this one will be along soon.
I find it interesting you use the word "smart".Forced equality of outcome isn't going to happen, so anyone expecting it will have a long and futile wait and another thread like this one will be along soon.
Forced equality of outcome isn't going to happen, so anyone expecting it will have a long and futile wait and another thread like this one will be along soon.
Does "smart",for example, mean taking reckless risks.
Not arguing that hard work does not deserve reward.
However take the case of some bankers, and walking away with huge rewards without taking responsibility for the mess they created.
It would be "fair" if we all played by the same rules.
I do get concerned that most employed pay tax at source whilst the "system allows wealthy individuals and corporations to avoid tax with "smart" tax avoidance scemes.
Yes the schemes are "legal" but only because the legislature allows it,doesn't make it "right" or "fair".
It is difficult not to personalise the issue so forgive me if I say you appear to take an "I'm all right Jack, feck you" approach to life.
I don't ask for "forced equality" ,just a more level playing field where everybody plays by the same rules.
You may be blessed with an aptitude for making money, good luck to you,but many work very hard but do not have your abilities,so by your book does that mean you get all the goodies whilst they struggle to make ends meet?
Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 17th April 19:13
Edited by avinalarf on Thursday 17th April 19:15
avinalar said:
I don't ask for "forced equality" ,just a more level playing field where everybody plays by the same rules.
Would you indicate a playing field which matters where the rules aren't the same?Job advertisements and selection discriminate less than ever I reckon, and there are start-ups which require no capital and anyone can try that approach.
avinalar said:
...does that mean you get all the goodies whilst they struggle to make ends meet?
It's possible to start a business and become successful and wealthy without many brain cells, look around you. For those without any desire to start a business there's decent money to be made in employment by sweating it with the power of muscles rather than little grey cells. Alternatively, tolerating boredom can pay reasonably well.
People who are successful through working hard, smart and taking well-judged risks will always get more goodies and rightly so.
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