The "woman" with literally no shame....

[P-Jay]

Wow, it's almost like she's said exactly what the Mail wants her to, to create the maximum amount of bile...

The Mail is a comic for the terminally angry and scared - I guess if you're good enough, Trolling pays.

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

turbobloke said:

This is known as a 'have you stopped beating your wife' (or small children) question, there is no option to choose that isn't bad or unrealistic.

That's what I posted and other people would realise straight away that there was absolutely no suggestion you were beating small children, I'm struggling to see how you missed it. Perhaps you could be mod enough to acknowledge that you got the wrong end of the stick over this.

You're right, I didn't realise it was meant as an example, but then "transparent rhetorical device" doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. A simple explanation of what you didmean would have helped. This isn't a court or debating society where people will object if you expand.

Either way this thread and others are littered with insults like "useful idiot" aimed at people who disagree with you. It's not on and I (We...) would like it to stop.

Thank you for the acknowledgement regarding the illustrative rhetorical device.

I should point out that 'useful idiot' is also an acknowledged term with a well-known definition arising from Soviet Russia, it describes people who blindly support the likes of Lenin and Stalin while ignoring the atrocities and banktupt ideology, and Lenin is said to have used it to describe Westerners duped into saying good things about bad communist regimes - if you look it up it's defined in multiple locations online. When used, I often put it in single quotes to indicate that it's a known term and not applicable to any individual. Its use is basically now part of custom and practice in political discourse including NP&E on PH. It is not used as an insult aimed at an individual.

Also while we're covering well-known terms, the phrase true believer was coined by an American climate scientist who has carried out work as a missionary, he points out that he has met more true believers in climate science meetings than in his line of voluntary work. This is also custom and practice terminology and while the cap fits in a few cases it is a general term that has been in use for years including on PH where again it's used as a general label not an individual insult.

Hopefully you'll be even-handed when the actual personal insults come my way as they often do but history doesn't bode well for that and I generally just ride it and reply on-topic where possible.

P-Jay said:

Wow, it's almost like she's said exactly what the Mail wants her to, to create the maximum amount of bile...

The Mail is a comic for the terminally angry and scared - I guess if you're good enough, Trolling pays.

That last bit is a generalisation too far, there is copy like that in the DM but it's not always the case. Other newspapers have content for people scared of anything other than dripping wet liberal leftism. That tends to be ignored, curiously.

Edited by turbobloke on Tuesday 22 April 18:28

[FiF]

To be honest one often sees various posters accused of being argumentative or abrasive when simply they have just provided the facts in an uncompromising way and not wrapped up in layers of soft soap or fancy wrappings to hide the fact that the other party doesn't really know what day of the week it is.

Breadvan72 is one who suffers from such accusations even though he softens things with liberal doses of usually well deserved leg pulling. This applies equally to TB though the humour is usually less obvious. Vonhosen also but without humour but very dry and devoid of banter.

It seems that these days when people don't like the message they try to kill the messenger. Frankly it gets wearing.

[turbobloke]

FiF said:

To be honest one often sees various posters accused of being argumentative or abrasive when simply they have just provided the facts in an uncompromising way and not wrapped up in layers of soft soap or fancy wrappings to hide the fact that the other party doesn't really know what day of the week it is.

Funny you should say that, it was on my mind but with mod action hanging over me on this thread I'm treading on eggshells simply to show willing, though Bill has kindly acknowledged at least one misunderstanding there are more which I would have thought couldn't happen in NP&E and as such can't be allowed for by going back to square one in every post.

FiF said:

Breadvan72 is one who suffers from such accusations even though he softens things with liberal doses of usually well deserved leg pulling. This applies equally to TB though the humour is usually less obvious. Vonhosen also but without humour but very dry and devoid of banter.

For my part I'm not on PH for a popularity contest and appreciate after 10 years of receiving abuse from people that don't agree with me that there are people who disagree with me (!) and will sling abuse merely for that reason.

FiF said:

It seems that these days when people don't like the message they try to kill the messenger. Frankly it gets wearing.

Onwards and sideways

[Bill]

turbobloke said:

illustrative rhetorical device.

You're just making it up now.

TBH I don't really care what the source of "useful idiot" is, you are using it as an insult to try to shut down counter argument.

ETA and for the record I have asked plenty others to tone it down in the past so don't think I'm picking on you.

Edited by Bill on Tuesday 22 April 19:32

[turbobloke]

Bill said:

turbobloke said:

illustrative rhetorical device.

You're just making it up now.

TBH I don't really care what the source of "useful idiot" is, you are using it as an insult to try to shut down counter argument.

ETA and for the record I have asked plenty others to tone it down in the past so don't think I'm picking on you.

As you can see from previous posts I'm aware of what you said. I'm not making anything up, my post about 'have you stopped' illustrated a well known rhetorical device. You must realise that when it became obvious that you were missing the point completely, anybody else would have got the whoosh parrot - but because you're a mod it didn't happen. How much bowing and scraping is required these days - and is the parrot banned now?

It just seems odd that in a forum titled NP&E where the P stands for politics there are questions directed at posters which reveal a lack of basic understanding of rhetorical devices, also that accepted political terminology is seen as an attempt to insult people and shut down debate when it patently isn't that at all.

You have to wonder what other oft-used political phrases will be banned next in this politics forum for lack of understanding.

[turbobloke]

Back on topic, here's something else from the DM, this time Jan Moir. Things may have moved on since this was published but here it is anyway. MYOMU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2609819/...

[Bill]

FiF said:

To be honest one often sees various posters accused of being argumentative or abrasive when simply they have just provided the facts in an uncompromising way and not wrapped up in layers of soft soap or fancy wrappings to hide the fact that the other party doesn't really know what day of the week it is.

Breadvan72 is one who suffers from such accusations even though he softens things with liberal doses of usually well deserved leg pulling. This applies equally to TB though the humour is usually less obvious. Vonhosen also but without humour but very dry and devoid of banter.

It seems that these days when people don't like the message they try to kill the messenger. Frankly it gets wearing.

And yet plenty on here manage to get their point across without being abrasive.

[EskimoArapaho]

Bill said:

And yet plenty on here manage to get their point across without being abrasive.

Find a Daily Mail sourced 'news' story that doesn't get abrasive. Love it or hate it, the Mail knows how to push the buttons of easily-led people. As this thread shows. And the hate propogates and feeds on itself.

There's a truth somewhere in this whole story. And it starts with an adolescent child bullied because she has a medical condition. (Bullied by the people who I suspect are rather like those posters who have slung insults about the way she looks.)

Good journalism - as opposed to someone whose job it is to sell tall stories - might have brought out the nuances and depths of this story. Alas, it would be complicated and not as easy to sell to the sort of idiots who keep posting DM bile.

[NormalWisdom]

EskimoArapaho said:

Find a Daily Mail sourced 'news' story that doesn't get abrasive. Love it or hate it, the Mail knows how to push the buttons of easily-led people. As this thread shows. And the hate propogates and feeds on itself.

There's a truth somewhere in this whole story. And it starts with an adolescent child bullied because she has a medical condition. (Bullied by the people who I suspect are rather like those posters who have slung insults about the way she looks.)

Good journalism - as opposed to someone whose job it is to sell tall stories - might have brought out the nuances and depths of this story. Alas, it would be complicated and not as easy to sell to the sort of idiots who keep posting DM bile.

You really should stop confusing personal opinion with fact!

[EskimoArapaho]

NormalWisdom said:

You really should stop confusing personal opinion with fact!

Feel free to post counter evidence.

(I will concede that every now and then the DM does an "Ah, look at the brave three-legged doggy" story. I think that Dacre thinks it counts as balance.)

[thismonkeyhere]

OllieC said:

I would

But would you pay to do it?

[Mr Whippy]

She looks like a man.

[NormalWisdom]

EskimoArapaho said:

NormalWisdom said:

You really should stop confusing personal opinion with fact!

Feel free to post counter evidence.

(I will concede that every now and then the DM does an "Ah, look at the brave three-legged doggy" story. I think that Dacre thinks it counts as balance.)

Now you are assuming there is "evidence" to counter..... Goodness!

[EskimoArapaho]

NormalWisdom said:

EskimoArapaho said:

NormalWisdom said:

You really should stop confusing personal opinion with fact!

Feel free to post counter evidence.

(I will concede that every now and then the DM does an "Ah, look at the brave three-legged doggy" story. I think that Dacre thinks it counts as balance.)

Now you are assuming there is "evidence" to counter..... Goodness!

Well, I didn't ask for a perfect example of what I said above, but thanks; the DM bile breeds hate instead of debate. I'm guessing that the inability to post sensibly is a side effect.

[NormalWisdom]

EskimoArapaho said:

the DM bile breeds hate instead of debate.

Yet more opinion, an opinion shared with a minority who would prefer we buried our heads in the sand and ignore these goings-on.....

Of course if we all did this it would become the norm, I would rather it did not.

Edited by NormalWisdom on Wednesday 23 April 13:08

[Justayellowbadge]

NormalWisdom said:

EskimoArapaho said:

the DM bile breeds hate instead of debate.

Yet more opinion, an opinion shared with a minority who would prefer we buried our heads in the sand and ignore these goings-on.....

Disagree. The Mail is a hate fuelled rag, and that is not a minority view.

I am broadly in line with the Mail politically speaking, but it's methodology and morality certainly do not reflect me.

[turbobloke]

Justayellowbadge said:

NormalWisdom said:

EskimoArapaho said:

the DM bile breeds hate instead of debate.

Yet more opinion, an opinion shared with a minority who would prefer we buried our heads in the sand and ignore these goings-on.....

Disagree. The Mail is a hate fuelled rag, and that is not a minority view.

I am broadly in line with the Mail politically speaking, but it's methodology and morality certainly do not reflect me.

People certainly think that way and make that viewpoint known most forcibly, and while there are examples in support of it, it's still a generalisation and as such has significant demerits.

In terms of balance, Ray Massey as Transport Editor has a fine history of balanced reporting which from time to time puts the motorist's case forward cogently where it's warranted.

When the DM reports on or around HMRC / Gov't / ONS data, it's common for certain people to ascribe the implications of the data to the Mail and as a result, shooting the messenger is commonplace including here on PH.

There are also articles from Samantha Brick, on which nothing more need be said, apart from free speech etc.

It's reasonable I think to take in what all the newspapers say, and as mentioned in a recent post, there are articles in The Guardian which pander to the more base instincts of those who are afraid of anything not dripping with wet liberal leftism.

It's a pity that The Independent hasn't fully lived up to its name.

[blindswelledrat]

dudleybloke said:

that slag should have been made to pay the tit money back after she went on the game.

That's a sentence that you don't hear everyday.
I'd love to overhear that without context and try and work out what it meant.

[Magog]

turbobloke said:

People certainly think that way and make that viewpoint known most forcibly, and while there are examples in support of it, it's still a generalisation and as such has significant demerits.

In terms of balance, Ray Massey as Transport Editor has a fine history of balanced reporting which from time to time puts the motorist's case forward cogently where it's warranted.

When the DM reports on or around HMRC / Gov't / ONS data, it's common for certain people to ascribe the implications of the data to the Mail and as a result, shooting the messenger is commonplace including here on PH.

There are also articles from Samantha Brick, on which nothing more need be said, apart from free speech etc.

It's reasonable I think to take in what all the newspapers say, and as mentioned in a recent post, there are articles in The Guardian which pander to the more base instincts of those who are afraid of anything not dripping with wet liberal leftism.

It's a pity that The Independent hasn't fully lived up to its name.

Just going to post this link to confuse everyone;

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/jan/04/steph...