Guns Everywhere
Discussion
Frankly without hundreds of years of arguing, the whole right to bare arms thing is laughable, it's up there with laws that allow Welshmen to be shot within city walls, at night, but only with a crossbow.
It's a technical point of argument, but as there legal system seems based on finding obscure technicalities to fight rather than, oh - finding out the truth I'm not surprised.
The rest of the developed world just shakes it collective head whilst some pig s
t thick American (usually paid by one of the gun makers) tries to explain that if everyone has a gun, then no one would ever been murdered or robbed, when confronted by cold hard facts showing them their love of guns is killing thousands of them every year, they simply say they need more.
It's a technical point of argument, but as there legal system seems based on finding obscure technicalities to fight rather than, oh - finding out the truth I'm not surprised.
The rest of the developed world just shakes it collective head whilst some pig s
t thick American (usually paid by one of the gun makers) tries to explain that if everyone has a gun, then no one would ever been murdered or robbed, when confronted by cold hard facts showing them their love of guns is killing thousands of them every year, they simply say they need more.Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
grumbledoak said:
Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
But they have a much lower proportion of handguns. Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
Canada has a long tradition of hunting, and many people have rifles. About 3% of households have handguns, compared to 18% or so in the USA
Switzerland has a funny history, given that all men between 20 and 30 are conscripted to the army and are (or certainly used to be) required to keep a gun at home. Having a handgun at home for private use isn't easy - it can be done, but there are a lot of rules (hey, it's Switzerland).
Basically, Canada and Switzerland are not good comparators at all for the USA, which is a strange place all on its own.
grumbledoak said:
Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
Oh I am pretty sure the Swiss are far from gun free but also the chance of being the victim of a gun related death is much higher in switzerland than it is in the UK. More guns just make killing eaiser, so making it harder is not a bad idea. Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
Still without there right to bear arms there would be no Red Jacket Fire Arms and thus no TV show where the fit a Bazooka with a toaster or spray an m-16 the same colour pink as someones car (I might have made them up like).
Oh and from limited experience if you have to kill every motherf
ker in the room, the M249 SAW makes a very good choice :-)FourWheelDrift said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The right to bare arms doesn't specify what kind of "arms". They've drawn the line at fully automatic guns, mortars and field-artillery. So why not just limit the arms to something that stays in the constitution but makes it considerably harder to commit mass murder. Such as, everyone is allowed to bring a pike to Church? Or broad-swords are acceptable to carry on public transport. Trebuchets must be visible at all time?
As for the right to "bare arms", it gets very warm in many parts of the USA, and anyone can wear a capped sleeved T shirt.
grumbledoak said:
Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
No, our current level of gun control was set after someone walked into a primary school and murdered 16 small children and a teacher. The Majority of Britain had, had enough of guns, and we still have, well apart from the acutely insecure. Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
And fear is a correct response to the thought of someone having a device that allows them to kill another person from a distance with total ease. I wouldn't want to live in a county where people routinely went about their day with broadsword around their belt, let alone a handgun.
There is no 'good news' with guns, as 'positive' story the gun nuts like to share usually revolves around a 'good guy' killing a 'bad guy' to stop him doing something, usually with his own gun.
Blib said:
Article said:
............ and authorises schools to allow staff members to carry weapons on campus.
Blimey, had that been allowed at my school, half of the pupils would not have made it to adulthood!Clearly the answer to a gun problem is more guns.
paulrockliffe said:
FourWheelDrift said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The right to bare arms doesn't specify what kind of "arms". They've drawn the line at fully automatic guns, mortars and field-artillery. So why not just limit the arms to something that stays in the constitution but makes it considerably harder to commit mass murder. Such as, everyone is allowed to bring a pike to Church? Or broad-swords are acceptable to carry on public transport. Trebuchets must be visible at all time?
P-Jay said:
grumbledoak said:
Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
No, our current level of gun control was set after someone walked into a primary school and murdered 16 small children and a teacher. The Majority of Britain had, had enough of guns, and we still have, well apart from the acutely insecure. Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
And fear is a correct response to the thought of someone having a device that allows them to kill another person from a distance with total ease. I wouldn't want to live in a county where people routinely went about their day with broadsword around their belt, let alone a handgun.
There is no 'good news' with guns, as 'positive' story the gun nuts like to share usually revolves around a 'good guy' killing a 'bad guy' to stop him doing something, usually with his own gun.
The problem with Ryan (Hungerford) and Hamilton (Dunblane) was not the type of guns they used, but simply the fact that their local constabularies failed in their proper duty to ensure they were fit persons to hold a licence.
Firearms with far more killing power than handguns are still widely held by firearms and shotgun licence holders in the UK. Gun control in the UK is an entirely political process and has no effect on reducing deaths from legally held firearms. If the laws were relaxed tomorrow to pre-Dunblane or even pre-Hungerford status then equally it would have no effect on increasing gun crime in any way, as long as licence applications were processed as they are now, with appropriate levels of background checks.
Rovinghawk said:
P-Jay said:
The Majority of Britain had, had enough of guns, and we still have, well apart from the acutely insecure.
Could you please provide something to support that statement?I note you feel that 'Majority' requires capitalisation. I presume that lends weight to your position.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowdrop_Petition this was probably the largest of the post Dunblaine petitions, but there were others, I believe total signatures came to around 2m people in total, admittedly it's likely that the same people signed more than one of the petitions.
Perhaps there's been a petition / demonstration or collective call for a relaxation of gun control since I haven't seen?
Or maybe our overlords have squashed it in case there's an armed uprising???
Gecko1978 said:
Oh I am pretty sure the Swiss are far from gun free but also the chance of being the victim of a gun related death is much higher in switzerland than it is in the UK. More guns just make killing eaiser, so making it harder is not a bad idea.
That isn't the point though. Lots of 'gun related' deaths are suicide which isn't necessarily related to the availability of firearms, per-se. If someone is going to commit suicide then they will find a way to do it. Over 50% of firearms related deaths in the USA are due to suicide.This may be relevant if you can show that the availability of firearms is increasing the suicide rate but I'm not aware of any studies which have shown that. Suicide is largely cultural; Japan has a very high rate yet has extremely stringent gun control laws - probably the most stringent in the world. Firearms are effectively completely banned there except for a few airguns a very small number of sporting shotguns and a tiny number of rifles which cannot be passed on to anyone other than their registered owners.
Your chaces of being a victim of a violent crime involving firearms in switzerland is no greater than it is here. The rate of all violent crime is pretty similar, in fact.
ajl.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
FourWheelDrift said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The right to bare arms doesn't specify what kind of "arms". They've drawn the line at fully automatic guns, mortars and field-artillery. So why not just limit the arms to something that stays in the constitution but makes it considerably harder to commit mass murder. Such as, everyone is allowed to bring a pike to Church? Or broad-swords are acceptable to carry on public transport. Trebuchets must be visible at all time?
As for the right to "bare arms", it gets very warm in many parts of the USA, and anyone can wear a capped sleeved T shirt.
The RTKBA exists so that the people can, if they wish, form a militia but being part of one is not a pre-requisite to exercising the right. The right exists as a counter to an oppresive regieme subjugating the populous (like the one they'd just kicked out did....us!) and denying them the rest of their constitutional rights.
In that context it is plainly obvious that the Second amendment relates to the possession of the military type arms. You could not operate a 'militia' otherwise.
ajl.
paulrockliffe said:
FourWheelDrift said:
TEKNOPUG said:
The right to bare arms doesn't specify what kind of "arms". They've drawn the line at fully automatic guns, mortars and field-artillery. So why not just limit the arms to something that stays in the constitution but makes it considerably harder to commit mass murder. Such as, everyone is allowed to bring a pike to Church? Or broad-swords are acceptable to carry on public transport. Trebuchets must be visible at all time?
When was the last Swiss mass shooting?
It's a US problem, not strictly a gun problem.
h8tax said:
P-Jay said:
grumbledoak said:
Good for them.
Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
No, our current level of gun control was set after someone walked into a primary school and murdered 16 small children and a teacher. The Majority of Britain had, had enough of guns, and we still have, well apart from the acutely insecure. Our gun control culture is driven by our political classes' fear of us finally having our own revolution. Every opportunity is taken to hype up fear of guns. We only get the bad news, plus spin. No mention is ever made of the reduced crime rates that do result, even in America. From what we get told you could easily assume that neighbouring Canada is gun free. Or Switzerland. They aren't.
And fear is a correct response to the thought of someone having a device that allows them to kill another person from a distance with total ease. I wouldn't want to live in a county where people routinely went about their day with broadsword around their belt, let alone a handgun.
There is no 'good news' with guns, as 'positive' story the gun nuts like to share usually revolves around a 'good guy' killing a 'bad guy' to stop him doing something, usually with his own gun.
The problem with Ryan (Hungerford) and Hamilton (Dunblane) was not the type of guns they used, but simply the fact that their local constabularies failed in their proper duty to ensure they were fit persons to hold a licence.
Firearms with far more killing power than handguns are still widely held by firearms and shotgun licence holders in the UK. Gun control in the UK is an entirely political process and has no effect on reducing deaths from legally held firearms. If the laws were relaxed tomorrow to pre-Dunblane or even pre-Hungerford status then equally it would have no effect on increasing gun crime in any way, as long as licence applications were processed as they are now, with appropriate levels of background checks.
Liokault said:
Blib said:
Article said:
............ and authorises schools to allow staff members to carry weapons on campus.
Blimey, had that been allowed at my school, half of the pupils would not have made it to adulthood!Clearly the answer to a gun problem is more guns.
A stark emxample of that is the fact that the lunatic who shot up the cinema a while back travelled past at least two closer cinemas to the one in question. None of those which he passed prohibited the carriage of firearms, the one he shot up did and had signs up to that effect.
ajl.
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, in this country we seem to struggle with the term "Guns don't kill people".
Maybe because it's so simplistic."Guns don't shoot people, people shoot people, but you can't shoot someone unless you have a gun so it's more correct to say that people with guns shoot people" isn't quite as catchy.
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