Islam and the West
Discussion
For clarification a 'screamer' is tabloid speak for an overly emotive headline.
And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
I'd say the current climate of being so on edge about even the possibility as being seen as slightly racist is a contributing factor in the current Trojan horse episode, as evidenced by the report which says much the same.
There is always a balance to be struck, but this went further than even what the 'screamer' headlines ( got slightly the wrong end of the stick with that one ) sensationalised about, or beyond even what the BNP and EDL tried to stir up.
There is always a balance to be struck, but this went further than even what the 'screamer' headlines ( got slightly the wrong end of the stick with that one ) sensationalised about, or beyond even what the BNP and EDL tried to stir up.
Einion Yrth said:
Digga said:
Precisely. As Gandhi said; an eye for an eye leaves us all blind. Justifying misdeeds of one party on the basis that another once did the same is incredible.
He is also reported as having answered the question "what do you think of Western civilisation?" with "I think it would be a very good idea."KareemK said:
Well, lets not be too hasty here. I'd quite like to see "whitey" (as gpo calls them) do a little squirming for a while now that some religious fundamentalists are over here doing what "whitey" did in Africa/Asia/Every beach they rocked up on for 100's of years. Looking at gpo's posts its working too 
TTwiggy said:
For clarification a 'screamer' is tabloid speak for an overly emotive headline.
And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
Just. Wow.And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
So you're in favour of debate, but anyone who thinks the spread of extremist religion is a racist?
Nice debate you're gonna get with that approach...
WinstonWolf said:
Just. Wow.
So you're in favour of debate, but anyone who thinks the spread of extremist religion is a racist?
Nice debate you're gonna get with that approach...
Just. Wow. (to paraphrase)So you're in favour of debate, but anyone who thinks the spread of extremist religion is a racist?
Nice debate you're gonna get with that approach...
You've just completely made that up.
Read what TTwiggy said again and try and tell us where the word 'Anyone' comes into it rather than 'some people'.
This is exactly how things get twisted and blown out of all proportion when you can extend 'some people' into 'Anyone'.
Well done.
WinstonWolf said:
TTwiggy said:
For clarification a 'screamer' is tabloid speak for an overly emotive headline.
And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
Just. Wow.And while I'm all for debate, it has to be acknowledged that the current fear of all things Islamic has allowed some people with racist views to hide their prejudices behind 'concerns' about the spread of religion and extremism - as it's a happy coincidence that many followers of Islam also happen to be brown.
So you're in favour of debate, but anyone who thinks the spread of extremist religion is a racist?
Nice debate you're gonna get with that approach...
He seems to like points scoring and takes the niggling approach. His posts are well written in part but he fails by making them appear instructive and bossy. I made some points and he chose to strike some similarity to this Franco thing. As I didn't reply he then started his niggling "why no reply" type approach. Such an approach deserves to be ignored.
I have real concerns about Radical Islam and the dangers it poses. Seems that over the years the mindset has become "don't talk about it and it will all go away / its nothing to worry about/ let's slag off anyone who mentions it make them seem nasty and unpleasant - teach them a lesson" I don't know why people adopt that approach or mindset - it's up to them.
The problem is that people choose to label people racist as they seem fit. Again that's up to them. But it's odd that I have many black friends some Jamaican parentage some South African who are just as concerned about it.
I made the "error" of seeing a comment about "whitey" and then using it in a joking manner ie "never mind it's all whiteys fault. they didn't do this they didn't do that etc". I think I mentioned that around the time that the parent of the radicalised Islamist tried to put the blame for ghis childs radicalisation at the foot of the UK Police for not doing more. I found the guys claims incredible and so much "lets blame someone else " that seems to be the mindset of many people in this country. That has duly been seized upon by some others who are nowhere near as clever as they seem to think they are and appear to simply reinforce the patronising attitude of some politicians.
FWIW I think many muslims are hard working ingenious and industrious and put some selfish lazy people to shame. The problem is that the Islamist faith seems to be one that has many radical elements attached to it and there are some people who think that the radical elements are "accommodated" too easily by some mainstream followers. Having said that its clear that some families will be distraught at their children turning to radicalism and it will be hard for them to accept and deal with let alone take actions against.
This is IMHO a newish thing I don't believe there was anything like it back in the 70's. It may well be a response from people - Asian people- who were the subject of p*** bashing. There was a lot of that in Birmingham in the areas I grew up in. I took no part and could see no point, but stuff like that festers in peoples minds.
I think IRAQ invasion was a simply dreadful thing and there was no need or reason to do it. But I'm afraid that I find little sympathy for people who think that "their brother and sister" is so oppressed in a far away land that can use that as an excuse to undermine a country to which their parents felt happy to emigrate into.
No doubt the clever types will be along soon with their labels but you know after the "brush it under the carpet" approach and slag off anyone who mentions it type thing is wearing rather thin.
55palfers said:
yeah - saw that... f
king disgraceful.Guam said:
55palfers said:
I think this should be declared a crime against humanity and the punishment to be meted out should fit the crime. Compulsory castration if found guilty, lets see how keen the fkers are on doing this to these poor women then!It has to be carried out with a rusty spoon though.
Guam said:
55palfers said:
I think this should be declared a crime against humanity and the punishment to be meted out should fit the crime. Compulsory castration if found guilty, lets see how keen the fkers are on doing this to these poor women then!Although, much like the burkha conundrum, this is as much a cultural issue as it is religious one. Many-many adult women in the Middle East and particularly Africa actively seek this 'cut' voluntarily.
dudleybloke said:
That fgm story has gone from the main bbc headlines now.
yeah - apparently the UN fked up (no surprise there TBH)http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/07/24/3463683/...
I mean they're still a bunch of psychotic, bronze-age
s but that atrocity isn't on their current "to kill and maim" listGuam said:
KareemK said:
Whats astonishing is that the women affected have Fathers/Husbands/Brothers/Sons who all stand by and allow it to happen.
Although, much like the burkha conundrum, this is as much a cultural issue as it is religious one. Many-many adult women in the Middle East and particularly Africa actively seek this 'cut' voluntarily.
Indeed but thats not what we are talking about here is it?Although, much like the burkha conundrum, this is as much a cultural issue as it is religious one. Many-many adult women in the Middle East and particularly Africa actively seek this 'cut' voluntarily.
We are talking about imposed mutilation on women who dont believe in having it done (or they would have done it for themselves no).
RedTrident said:
I always though this was an African cultural thing, and even then only in certain parts of Africa. I'd never heard of it growing up as a child surrounded by Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin. Nor was it something that I came across as a teenager with Middle eastern (Arab) female friends.
Same here.It predates Islam and is practised by members of other "religions" as well. Seems to be prevalent mainly in Northern Africa.
Smiler. said:
To themselves or to their children?
Either way, source please.
Usually to their children and it is widely accepted that the practice of FGM is borne from Poverty, Ignorance, Culture and also Religious upbringing - but it is not a strictly Muslim issue.Either way, source please.
http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-genital-muti...
Some excerpts:
"Most women referred to the practice as both a tradition and a religious obligation. When asked why they subject their daughters to the operation, many women respond "it has always been like that." Because the clitoris is considered to be "dirty" (haram, the connotation is forbidden by religion), women fear that they cannot find husbands for their daughters if they have not been mutilated; many believe men prefer sex with a mutilated wife. Others stress the religious necessity of FGM even though Islamic law is unclear with regard to FGM.
Men usually avoid offering a clear statement about whether FGM is a good practice; rather, they refer to FGM as a female practice in which men should not interfere. None of the men said he had ever discussed the question with his wife.
Statistical data from African countries indicate no clear relationship between FGM and a specific religion.[33] Still, this does not mean that the causes of FGM do not vary across regions and that religion has no influence. As California State University anthropologist Ellen Gruenbaum has explained, "People have different and multiple reasons [for FGM] … For some it is a rite of passage. For others it is not. Some consider it aesthetically pleasing. For others, it is mostly related to morality or sexuality."
Anyone who's watched the numerous BBC documentaries on this happening in the UK will have been struck by the fact that in many cases its Senior matriarchal members of the communities involved bringing the young girls to the operating table and no males have been present.
Then of course you have the seperate issue of what exactly is FGM? There are various forms of this practice the most common of which is merely an equivalent to Male circumcision but of course being a 'Male' practice it's not called Male Genital Mutilation. So before screaming to the high heavens in a Daily Mail kinda way that the "Muslims" are imposing FGM you'd really need to know what 'cut' is being imposed. After all, the Jewish faith almost imposes the Male version.
Of course - without doubt - unless the operation is required from a medical point of view then the whole sorry practice needs stamping out but in a compassionate and respectful fashion as you're treading on hundreds of years of poor and underprivelidged peoples belief systems here.
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