Islam and the West
Discussion
Pickled Piper said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Been hearing for at least 15 years how the evil Muslim types are taking over the world and soon we will all be under sharia law. It was bull then, it is bull now but hey, lets keep quoting a media who are motivated by circulation (thats their job!) and as long as the public dont want to know in depth situational analysis behind the news but want quick daily mail style "news" or assume they understand everything as they watch BBC news or newsnight, (who to be fair, do a decent job with very limited time) then nothing will move on until we find the next set of people to fear.
So the creeping Islamification of State Education was just a tabloid frenzy? All happened without largescale support from a whole community?And to stress, even if we accept that entire community was behind turning a school into a recruiting ground for suicide bombers on a daily basis, how many people would be involved? lets say 5 schools with 1000 kids a school, so max of 5,0000 families, so say including kids, old people, anyone directly Muslim with some kind of link to those schools is a few thousands compared to BILLIONS of Muslims. So if we take it that it was being done to the fullest extent, it is hardly a global takeover, simply a local issue that clearly needs to be addressed.
Never yet heard of a community of any type above a few people where everyone has exactly the same views.But I guess I could be wrong and all Muslims at least support extremism to some degree. That being the case, I assume it is also safe to say every Brit supports everything our elected Government does, every person alive is a murderer as I assume someone from pretty much every group somewhere at sometime has killed someone, etc. Its unsupportable to claim anything else.
Pappa Lurve said:
Again, I am speaking not as a representative of England being as I am English, or as a representative of my own communities, but as someone who is getting increasingly concerned by the pointless, untrue and casual vilification of Muslims in general.
SOrry for the long post - something I feel very strongly about.
Have you taken a wrong turn? Sagacious comments on PH! Are you sure?SOrry for the long post - something I feel very strongly about.
Alpinestars said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Again, I am speaking not as a representative of England being as I am English, or as a representative of my own communities, but as someone who is getting increasingly concerned by the pointless, untrue and casual vilification of Muslims in general.
SOrry for the long post - something I feel very strongly about.
Have you taken a wrong turn? Sagacious comments on PH! Are you sure?SOrry for the long post - something I feel very strongly about.
supersingle said:
PL, nobody on this thread has suggested that all Muslims or even a sizeable minority, are up to no good. You're making a fallacious argument.
Muslims are not evil. But, IMO Islam is a wicked ideology, the major victims of which are Muslims.
Judge not - lest ye be Judged.Muslims are not evil. But, IMO Islam is a wicked ideology, the major victims of which are Muslims.
Edited by Ali G on Wednesday 11th June 23:39
Edited cos I is inkompetent innit
Edited by Ali G on Wednesday 11th June 23:43
Edited by Ali G on Wednesday 11th June 23:45
supersingle said:
PL, nobody on this thread has suggested that all Muslims or even a sizeable minority, are up to no good. You're making a fallacious argument.
Muslims are not evil. But, IMO Islam is a wicked ideology, the major victims of which are Muslims.
What part of it is wicked? And no, quotes from the Mail are not proof. Nor is it proof to say "lots think this / agree with this".Muslims are not evil. But, IMO Islam is a wicked ideology, the major victims of which are Muslims.
And wicked compared to what?! Presumably our charming "Christian" based values? What are these values we all universally share that are not shared broadly by the majority of humans?
Finally - the majority of victims are Muslims. Victims of some non-existent all encompassing regime? If that is the case, considering the strongest faith in terms of influence in Europe has traditionally been Catholicism and was a huge driving force behind Imperialism which had a shattering effect on the ME (unintended certainly but unarguably shattering), I would suggest there is a stronger argument to say that the Catholic Church has caused more problems for Muslims, the logical extension of which is that all Christians or indeed all Europeans acted as a simple mindless hoard with a few people telling them what to do. Which is not remotely the case.
Pappa Lurve said:
What part of it is wicked? And no, quotes from the Mail are not proof. Nor is it proof to say "lots think this / agree with this".
And wicked compared to what?! Presumably our charming "Christian" based values? What are these values we all universally share that are not shared broadly by the majority of humans?
Finally - the majority of victims are Muslims. Victims of some non-existent all encompassing regime? If that is the case, considering the strongest faith in terms of influence in Europe has traditionally been Catholicism and was a huge driving force behind Imperialism which had a shattering effect on the ME (unintended certainly but unarguably shattering), I would suggest there is a stronger argument to say that the Catholic Church has caused more problems for Muslims, the logical extension of which is that all Christians or indeed all Europeans acted as a simple mindless hoard with a few people telling them what to do. Which is not remotely the case.
As far as UK Imperialism goes - then the de rigueur religion would have been 'Christianity' with a 'Church of England' flavour after the spat that H VIII had with his 'Popieness' regarding his need to dispatch his wives in pursuit of a male off-spring.And wicked compared to what?! Presumably our charming "Christian" based values? What are these values we all universally share that are not shared broadly by the majority of humans?
Finally - the majority of victims are Muslims. Victims of some non-existent all encompassing regime? If that is the case, considering the strongest faith in terms of influence in Europe has traditionally been Catholicism and was a huge driving force behind Imperialism which had a shattering effect on the ME (unintended certainly but unarguably shattering), I would suggest there is a stronger argument to say that the Catholic Church has caused more problems for Muslims, the logical extension of which is that all Christians or indeed all Europeans acted as a simple mindless hoard with a few people telling them what to do. Which is not remotely the case.
As for the Catholic (Christian) church, then no-body expected the 'inquisition'!
Not least those in Southern American territories - none of whom were muslims, but none the less took a good beating from the Catholics from Spain etc.
As for India - that's another story!
Ali G said:
As far as UK Imperialism goes - then the de rigueur religion would have been 'Christianity' with a 'Church of England' flavour after the spat that H VIII had with his 'Popieness' regarding his need to dispatch his wives in pursuit of a male off-spring.
As for the Catholic (Christian) church, then no-body expected the 'inquisition'!
Not least those in Southern American territories - none of whom were muslims, but none the less took a good beating from the Catholics from Spain etc.
As for India - that's another story!
Indeed - I was keeping it simple to illustrate the point. One could argue that at that stage the C of E was just a small sub unit of Christianity which in Europe meant the Catholic Church but that argument is every bit as correct as the sweeping statements made about many other groups, not least Muslims. I am 100% certain that beyond the fact they are all human, all alive and presumably generally identify themselves as Muslims you can find no other are of which every Muslim alive adheres to 100%! Equally for Jews, Eskimos, sheep farmers, whatever.As for the Catholic (Christian) church, then no-body expected the 'inquisition'!
Not least those in Southern American territories - none of whom were muslims, but none the less took a good beating from the Catholics from Spain etc.
As for India - that's another story!
What about people don;t fit into these meaningless groupings - say someone lives in the UK, was brought up in Australia, being of Indian decent he supports India in the Cricket, father was Christian, mother Jewish but he does not much follow anything. Is he a stereo-typical Jew? Christian? Oz? UK? Indian? Agnostic and thus hangs on Richard Dawkins every word?
As you know Ali, people are individuals with broadly similar basic needs at wildly different views and priorities. Why some people find that concept so hard to grasp is beyond me!
Pappa Lurve said:
Indeed - I was keeping it simple to illustrate the point. One could argue that at that stage the C of E was just a small sub unit of Christianity which in Europe meant the Catholic Church but that argument is every bit as correct as the sweeping statements made about many other groups, not least Muslims. I am 100% certain that beyond the fact they are all human, all alive and presumably generally identify themselves as Muslims you can find no other are of which every Muslim alive adheres to 100%! Equally for Jews, Eskimos, sheep farmers, whatever.
o be
What about people don;t fit into these meaningless groupings - say someone lives in the UK, was brought up in Australia, being of Indian decent he supports India in the Cricket, father was Christian, mother Jewish but he does not much follow anything. Is he a stereo-typical Jew? Christian? Oz? UK? Indian? Agnostic and thus hangs on Richard Dawkins every word?
As you know Ali, people are individuals with broadly similar basic needs at wildly different views and priorities. Why some people find that concept so hard to grasp is beyond me!
History, is history. Whoever did what to whom, may be not nice, but needs to be put to one side since 'learning' and advancement of all, to the benefit of all, should be the main aim!o be
What about people don;t fit into these meaningless groupings - say someone lives in the UK, was brought up in Australia, being of Indian decent he supports India in the Cricket, father was Christian, mother Jewish but he does not much follow anything. Is he a stereo-typical Jew? Christian? Oz? UK? Indian? Agnostic and thus hangs on Richard Dawkins every word?
As you know Ali, people are individuals with broadly similar basic needs at wildly different views and priorities. Why some people find that concept so hard to grasp is beyond me!
For example, how the 'Antikythera Mechanism' (ancient Greece) became lost to humanity for so long, should be evidence that something went wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
There may be yet some in the Muslim world who need to take this on board!
Lets not have this happen again!
gpo746 said:
Purity14 said:
I think we should be more tolerant of the Muslims and stop being so racist and Islamaphobic all the time.
I tried doing these sort of satire, ironic laden posts.trouble is most people don't get it and think you are being serious when you post such stuff.
Tom Lehrer said:
Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.
Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.
Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.
Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.
Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.
But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!
I think there is great confusion in the west, and the UK in particular, between Islam and Subcontinent culture. My wife is a Muslim, we have an American educated daughter, and my wife is always commenting that thinks claimed to be 'Islamic' by the BBC and CNN are actually Pakistani culture and nothing to do with Islam. There is a great piece today on the telegraph website on multi cultures that hardly talks about Islam, but talks about Pakistani culture.
I do accept that may Pakistani (and Sudanese etc) claim things to be Islamic when they are not. E.g. There is nothing I am aware of in Islam that prevents girls being educated, the girl in the office next to me as I write this has a degree from Arizona state paid for by a grant from an Islamic state, my wife teaches the Koran yet she does not wear a head scarf outside the Mosque (as my Welsh mother wore a head scarf inside the church) and I could save a fortune on my daughters Uni fees if education was not allowed. We need to stop excusing things because people claim them as a religious right, There is nothing in Islam that requires a veil, the requirement is just to dress modestly, and it also requires men to do the same, yet every lunch time I am surrounded by Saudi's were the wife is veiled but the husband is in shorts and tee shirt, nothing to do with religion all to do with culture.
The importance of making this distinction is that we would not then lump the many Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia etc in with this culture and could start a strategy of divide and conquer. Having worked In SE Asia for 20 years and worked in Sudan I could tell so many stories about Muslim women I know being absolutely disgusted by the treatment they received in the Sudan in the name of an Islamic religion they did not recognize.
I do accept that may Pakistani (and Sudanese etc) claim things to be Islamic when they are not. E.g. There is nothing I am aware of in Islam that prevents girls being educated, the girl in the office next to me as I write this has a degree from Arizona state paid for by a grant from an Islamic state, my wife teaches the Koran yet she does not wear a head scarf outside the Mosque (as my Welsh mother wore a head scarf inside the church) and I could save a fortune on my daughters Uni fees if education was not allowed. We need to stop excusing things because people claim them as a religious right, There is nothing in Islam that requires a veil, the requirement is just to dress modestly, and it also requires men to do the same, yet every lunch time I am surrounded by Saudi's were the wife is veiled but the husband is in shorts and tee shirt, nothing to do with religion all to do with culture.
The importance of making this distinction is that we would not then lump the many Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia etc in with this culture and could start a strategy of divide and conquer. Having worked In SE Asia for 20 years and worked in Sudan I could tell so many stories about Muslim women I know being absolutely disgusted by the treatment they received in the Sudan in the name of an Islamic religion they did not recognize.
(not to mention, IIRC, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, Greece, Holland). Berw said:
Excellent post
"Racist!" That is the reason more people don't speak (type) as you do. People, particularly white people, have barely been able to say the word "Pakistani" in this country for forty years and "Islam" or "Asian" have been used in it's place, tarring the larger grouping with the same brush.
Maybe the tide is turning. Maybe not.
Edited by grumbledoak on Thursday 12th June 08:48
grumbledoak said:
That is the reason more people don't speak (type) as you do. People, particularly white people, have barely been able to say the word "Pakistani" in this country for forty years and "Islam" or "Asian" have been used in it's place, tarring the larger grouping with the same brush.
Maybe the tide is turning. Maybe not.
Would it be fair to say the majority of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin?Maybe the tide is turning. Maybe not.
grumbledoak said:
Mermaid said:
Would it be fair to say the majority of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin?
I've no idea of the breakdown, in truth. I imagine Pakistani and Bangladeshi together would be.Mermaid said:
The guys who make the "bad' news - is it predominantly Pakistani or is it difficult to tell?
That probably depends on your politics. I though Lutfur Rahmen's election in Tower Hamlets was Bangladeshis voting for one of their own. Is that "bad"? Personally I thought it was quite funny that Labour's own "poor immigrants, vote Labour" kicked them in the sponge at the ballot box.Mermaid said:
grumbledoak said:
Mermaid said:
Would it be fair to say the majority of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin?
I've no idea of the breakdown, in truth. I imagine Pakistani and Bangladeshi together would be.It's very interesting to view this from a geographical standpoint and not just a religious one.
It is why surveys in mainland Europe within the Mulsim population produce such different data from the same in the UK. In mainland Europe the large communities are generally defined by either North African muslims or Turkish. Both these groups appear to have very different views on culture than the Pakistani groups as well as the West and East African ones.
There is one very clear potential difference and that is that Turkey and North Africa have far stronger cultural ties to Europe, created over thousands of years. Both groups have lived on each other's land and traded ownership of land as well as traded together. They also have different interpretations of their religions and when you look at their tribal ancestry, which always forms the basis of a cultures interpretation of the specifics of a religion, you can see that it is more progressive and inclusive.
Look at other geographic areas such as Pakistan and you can see that very dominant parts of Islam are derived from ancient tribal customs of those regions and because of far less interaction with Europe and other cultures these hereditary links are much stronger and in our eyes regressive.
More 'bad news", but names suggest Muslim but probably not Pakistani/Bengali - Kurd/Iranian/Turkish?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-i...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-i...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff