Are drugs REALLY a problem?
Discussion
BJG1 said:
With regard to it being carcinogenic, you clearly know more than the scientific community, which is still undecided on it. There have been several studies done with different conclusions and the fact its taken with tobacco makes it hard to measure.
Is that not just semantics though? If tobacco is carcinogenic and it is required for the majority of people to take cannabis.... then cannabis use is directly responsible for people putting carcinogens in their body. So we should really be treating it as carcinogenic for the purposes of any discussions or law decisions.KFC said:
Is that not just semantics though? If tobacco is carcinogenic and it is required for the majority of people to take cannabis.... then cannabis use is directly responsible for people putting carcinogens in their body. So we should really be treating it as carcinogenic for the purposes of any discussions or law decisions.
Is that not just sophistry though? It certainly isn't science.KFC said:
Is that not just semantics though? If tobacco is carcinogenic and it is required for the majority of people to take cannabis.... then cannabis use is directly responsible for people putting carcinogens in their body. So we should really be treating it as carcinogenic for the purposes of any discussions or law decisions.
It isn't a requirement that you use tobacco. You can educate people of the dangers of tobacco which we're doing quite effectively and people may stop smoking it with tobacco. You can't call something is carcinogenic because people who do it also do something else that gives them cancer FFS.BJG1 said:
KFC said:
Is that not just semantics though? If tobacco is carcinogenic and it is required for the majority of people to take cannabis.... then cannabis use is directly responsible for people putting carcinogens in their body. So we should really be treating it as carcinogenic for the purposes of any discussions or law decisions.
It isn't a requirement that you use tobacco. You can educate people of the dangers of tobacco which we're doing quite effectively and people may stop smoking it with tobacco. You can't call something is carcinogenic because people who do it also do something else that gives them cancer FFS.The principle thing of note with cannabis is that it's not addictive and very few people who smoke it smoke nearly enough to get any serious health effects unlike tobacco.
BJG1 said:
It isn't a requirement that you use tobacco. You can educate people of the dangers of tobacco which we're doing quite effectively and people may stop smoking it with tobacco. You can't call something is carcinogenic because people who do it also do something else that gives them cancer FFS.
If it wasn't so expensive people might not have to smoke it with tobacco!Esseesse said:
We are soft on drug users (didn't used to be). Drug use has increased (big surprise).
Don't be soft on drug users, reduce drug use and these issues would exist less. Drug use is not a physical and mental health issue because presumably there was a time before drugs were taken for every drug user. Prevent them from starting in the first place.
You are totally wrong, sorry.Don't be soft on drug users, reduce drug use and these issues would exist less. Drug use is not a physical and mental health issue because presumably there was a time before drugs were taken for every drug user. Prevent them from starting in the first place.
Drug use has plummeted amongst young people as for that matter has alcohol usage.
This has happened at precisely the same time as the criminal justice system has rightly tried avoid entangling those caught with quantities of drugs associated with personal use in the criminal justice system. Because being convicted of a crime is much more damaging than any drug.
BJG1 said:
I think it's been proven, specifically with schizophrenia, that smoking doubles your chances. The evidence is less clear when it comes to much more common mental health issues, though.
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Talksteer said:
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?
It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Are there any statitistics on what percentage of users who have schizophrenia as a result, is it 10%, 1%, 0.000001, any % > 0 ?It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Talksteer said:
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?
It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
It would appear that there is a relationship between schizophrenia and psycho-active drugs, not only cannabis, but this is not, as you say, directly causal. It would appear that if you are high-risk then psycho-active drugs increase the likelihood of you becoming mentally ill. If you suffer from vertigo, don't stand near near the edge sort of thing. It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
As for the rate of schizophrenia, I don't think that is really something you can use to disprove anything as classifications of mental illness varies over time. Rates of a specific mental illness often increase and decrease over time as sufferers are moved from one heading to another.
Talksteer said:
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?
It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Good. You've plucked that quote out of context. I've been saying much the same as your post. It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
FredClogs said:
vetrof said:
FredClogs said:
stop people taking them - which at the end of the day must be the desired aim.
Why must it be the desired aim?Of course we all want to live a little with the harsh edges of existence blurred form time to time, it's nice to just escape, to catch for an evening a different perspective, to live for a day with no external reality... Yes it's good, bit it's not right (as roy walker once said before destroying his life with...)
like I said, i understand the debate, have first hand experience of the highs and lows, i don't want to tell people how to live but it's a fact if no one took illegal drugs which can do damage no one would be damaged, and we could live without them, my 15 years clean is proof.
Drugs are used and have been used by humans for thousands of years, There is even a school of thought that psychedelic drugs played a pivotal role in the transition from apes to humans. So perhaps drugs have been central to the whole human experience since the beginning.
For all the horror stories of lives ruined there are thousands of untold stories of normal people enjoying recreational use and just getting on with their lives. Could it be a case of messed up people will eventually find a way to mess up their lives?
The current situation in Colorado and Washington will be key to the whole legalise debate. Once other states and the US Federal govt see just how much revenue can be raised, then all bets are off. Money rules.
Edited by vetrof on Monday 30th June 08:56
scorp said:
Talksteer said:
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?
It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Are there any statitistics on what percentage of users who have schizophrenia as a result, is it 10%, 1%, 0.000001, any % > 0 ?It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
This paper:
Moore T. H., Zammit S., Lingford-Hughes A., Barnes T. R.,
Jones P. B., Burke M.et al. Systematic review of cannabis use
and risk of developing psychotic or affective mental health
outcomes. Lancet 2007.
concluded a cannabis user is twice as likely to develop schizophrenia or other form of psychosis as a non-cannabis user.
These papers simply proposed 'an increased risk' and seem to reflect the contemporary consensus:
Zammit S., Allebeck P., Andreasson S., Lundberg I., Lewis G.
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia
in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study.BMJ
2002.
Arseneault L., Cannon M., Poulton R., Murray R., Caspi A.,
Moffitt T. E. Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult
psychosis: longitudinal prospective study. BMJ 2002.
Fergusson D. M., Horwood L. J., Swain-Campbell N. R. Cannabis
dependence and psychotic symptoms in young people. Psychol Med 2003.
Moore T. H., Zammit S., Lingford-Hughes A., Barnes T. R.,
Jones P. B., Burke M.et al. Systematic review of cannabis use
and risk of developing psychotic or affective mental health
outcomes. Lancet 2007.
concluded a cannabis user is twice as likely to develop schizophrenia or other form of psychosis as a non-cannabis user.
These papers simply proposed 'an increased risk' and seem to reflect the contemporary consensus:
Zammit S., Allebeck P., Andreasson S., Lundberg I., Lewis G.
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia
in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study.BMJ
2002.
Arseneault L., Cannon M., Poulton R., Murray R., Caspi A.,
Moffitt T. E. Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult
psychosis: longitudinal prospective study. BMJ 2002.
Fergusson D. M., Horwood L. J., Swain-Campbell N. R. Cannabis
dependence and psychotic symptoms in young people. Psychol Med 2003.
goldblum said:
This paper:
Moore T. H., Zammit S., Lingford-Hughes A., Barnes T. R.,
Jones P. B., Burke M.et al. Systematic review of cannabis use
and risk of developing psychotic or affective mental health
outcomes. Lancet 2007.
concluded a cannabis user is twice as likely to develop schizophrenia or other form of psychosis as a non-cannabis user.
These papers simply proposed 'an increased risk' and seem to reflect the contemporary consensus:
Zammit S., Allebeck P., Andreasson S., Lundberg I., Lewis G.
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia
in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study.BMJ
2002.
Arseneault L., Cannon M., Poulton R., Murray R., Caspi A.,
Mof?tt T. E. Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult
psychosis: longitudinal prospective study. BMJ 2002.
Fergusson D. M., Horwood L. J., Swain-Campbell N. R. Cannabis
dependence and psychotic symptoms in young people. Psychol Med 2003.
Good links, I'll spool over those later Moore T. H., Zammit S., Lingford-Hughes A., Barnes T. R.,
Jones P. B., Burke M.et al. Systematic review of cannabis use
and risk of developing psychotic or affective mental health
outcomes. Lancet 2007.
concluded a cannabis user is twice as likely to develop schizophrenia or other form of psychosis as a non-cannabis user.
These papers simply proposed 'an increased risk' and seem to reflect the contemporary consensus:
Zammit S., Allebeck P., Andreasson S., Lundberg I., Lewis G.
Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia
in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study.BMJ
2002.
Arseneault L., Cannon M., Poulton R., Murray R., Caspi A.,
Mof?tt T. E. Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult
psychosis: longitudinal prospective study. BMJ 2002.
Fergusson D. M., Horwood L. J., Swain-Campbell N. R. Cannabis
dependence and psychotic symptoms in young people. Psychol Med 2003.
One slight mis-step, though - at least two of those concern the effect in young people, i.e. a period where it is known that your brain is rewiring itself constantly. I wouldn't mind betting the others disproportionately represent adolescents as well (as I said, I'll check that properly later).
Might it be not overbold to suggest that's not a particularly good indicator of the effect on a matured brain? With the consequent effects on legislation.
Admittedly you could argue that age bans are never perfect, and often almost useless, but food for thought.
xjsdriver said:
scorp said:
Talksteer said:
In other news the risks of you being killed my meteorite have just doubled, do you feel scared?
It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
Are there any statitistics on what percentage of users who have schizophrenia as a result, is it 10%, 1%, 0.000001, any % > 0 ?It has been shown that there is a relation between cannabis use and schizophrenia, but this does not mean causality.
What is most damning however is that cannabis use has increased manyfold across society however the total rates of schizophrenia have not also increased. The evidence that cannabis causes new cases of schizophrenia is therefore very weak.
A problem?
Maybe - but for most, the problem maybe that of funding organised crime - which may have repercussions beyond that of the local high-street on a Saturday night.
Of course, the trade in drugs was not always a problem for the UK - since the government supported the trade of opium to the Chinese in exchange for tea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
From which, certain traders (i.e. Jsrdine Matheson) thrived and continue to thrive (although hopefully not by trading in Opium!).
Perhaps the problem for the UK establishment is/was the financial clout that those trading in drugs would have had back home?
After all, was opium not considered an acceptable medication back in the day, c.f. Sherlock Holmes.
Of course, the opiates are still used to medicate those in pain to this day - under controlled circumstances.
Maybe - but for most, the problem maybe that of funding organised crime - which may have repercussions beyond that of the local high-street on a Saturday night.
Of course, the trade in drugs was not always a problem for the UK - since the government supported the trade of opium to the Chinese in exchange for tea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War
From which, certain traders (i.e. Jsrdine Matheson) thrived and continue to thrive (although hopefully not by trading in Opium!).
Perhaps the problem for the UK establishment is/was the financial clout that those trading in drugs would have had back home?
After all, was opium not considered an acceptable medication back in the day, c.f. Sherlock Holmes.
Of course, the opiates are still used to medicate those in pain to this day - under controlled circumstances.
FredClogs said:
Cannabis psychosis is real, it's a psychosis caused by cannabis, it's not schizophrenia.
hth
Indeed, however I understand it never existed until the drive to create stronger strains due to the law's approach of punishing based on weight of product... hth
Particularly the massive increase in CBD content as opposed to the relatively small increase (in percentage terms) of THC.
The range of cannabinoids in cannabis is vast, and they all have different mental and physical effects - the fact that we have receptors solely for cannabinoids suggests that weed has been a big enough factor in humanity's history for a genetic response...
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