Israeli

Author
Discussion

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
xcellent debating skills.
A:You have a bottle of whiskey hidden in your garden.
B:Show me evidence of your assertion that I have a bottle of Whiskey in my garden.
A:No you provide evidence that there isn't a bottle of Whiskey in your garden.

Wonderful Mrr T, keep at it, you're doing great, and accusing those who are concerned about Palestinians' casualties of being "Hamas supporters" was just 'inspiring' to say the least. Great logic you're displaying there.
I love it, toys pram exit.

Where does your analogy about a bottle of whisky in my garden come from?

Is Gaza my garden? I can assure you I have no missiles in my garden, nor any bottles of Whiskey.

Lets get the analogy right.

I say there is a bottle of whiskey in my neighbours garden and you say there is not. You tell me to prove there is even thought you know I cannot do that since my neighbour is a murderous thug who will kill me if I enter his garden . So I tell you to prove there is not.

Neither of us knows the truth. So we must judge the situation of what we know.

As for supporting Hamas. I do not believe you are actively promoting Jihad. But by concentrating on the actions of Israel and ignoring the actions of Hamas you are clearly benefiting Hamas.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
I do not believe you are actively promoting Jihad. But by concentrating on the actions of Israel and ignoring the actions of Hamas you are clearly benefiting Hamas.
Hamas are a terrorist organisation and should stop firing rockets. Who doubts that?

Gazan children are being killed by Israeli bombs. Who doubts that?

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
As I understand it, most Palestinians are Sunni Muslims. You would therefore expect the Saudis to support them ( e.g. Syria).

The US supports Israel.

An opportunity for a grand bargain somewhere? Or are the Palestinians just a "football" to kick around. What am I missing?
Most of Hamas's funding comes from Iran which I suppose is a reason the Saudis don't back them fully. Although I think things are changing because Hamas voiced their support for the Syrian rebels and Iran cut some of their funding because of this.

Tbh, the Saudis prefer a strong Israel as opposed to yet another Iranian proxy in the region which they think Palestine could become.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
No you really do not get it.

The link is a comment column critical of the Israeli Government published in an Israeli newspaper. Whether what is said is true or not. What it does show is that Israel remains a democracy with freedom of speech.

I observed that I doubt the civilians in Gaza have similar levels of freedom to criticise Hamas.
Yes, Yes. Freedom of Speech

http://www.newsweek.com/israeli-foreign-minister-a...

Lost soul

8,712 posts

181 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
Lets face it AJ are hardly going to be unbiased in their reporting , a bit like the Nazi party reporting on the London blitz

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Lost soul said:
s1962a said:
Lets face it AJ are hardly going to be unbiased in their reporting , a bit like the Nazi party reporting on the London blitz
Just as unbiased as CNN or FOX, no?

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
Hamas are a terrorist organisation and should stop firing rockets. Who doubts that?

Gazan children are being killed by Israeli bombs. Who doubts that?
I do not doubt either of those statements.

I also believe if Hamas stops lobbing missiles and trying to tunnel suicide bombers into Israel then Israel will stop firing on Hamas. However, I do not beleive if Israel stops firing on Hamas then Hamas will stop lobbing missiles and trying to tunnel suicide bombers into Israel

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?

SR7492

Original Poster:

495 posts

149 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?
Isn't that the IDF way of getting the job done?

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?
Why do you ask? Surely Hamas would never use captured prisoners as human shields. Such behaviour is clearly in breach of the Geneva convention.

allnighter

6,663 posts

221 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
xcellent debating skills.
A:You have a bottle of whiskey hidden in your garden.
B:Show me evidence of your assertion that I have a bottle of Whiskey in my garden.
A:No you provide evidence that there isn't a bottle of Whiskey in your garden.

Wonderful Mrr T, keep at it, you're doing great, and accusing those who are concerned about Palestinians' casualties of being "Hamas supporters" was just 'inspiring' to say the least. Great logic you're displaying there.
I love it, toys pram exit.

Where does your analogy about a bottle of whisky in my garden come from?

Is Gaza my garden? I can assure you I have no missiles in my garden, nor any bottles of Whiskey.

Lets get the analogy right.

I say there is a bottle of whiskey in my neighbours garden and you say there is not. You tell me to prove there is even thought you know I cannot do that since my neighbour is a murderous thug who will kill me if I enter his garden . So I tell you to prove there is not.

Neither of us knows the truth. So we must judge the situation of what we know.

As for supporting Hamas. I do not believe you are actively promoting Jihad. But by concentrating on the actions of Israel and ignoring the actions of Hamas you are clearly benefiting Hamas.
Bla bla bla, more nonesense. If you assert that there is a bottle of whiskey in your neighbour's garden at least provide some evidence, that's what we're discussing here, concrete evidence, do not respond to me by saying "Oh no you provide evidence that said bottle of Whiskey is not there!".That's just plain dumb. Replace bottle of Whiskey with UFO, God, Angel or Mr Tumble.The conclusion is always the same! The onus is on you to provide empirical evidence, otherwise anyone can claim anything about anybody whether they are murderous thugs or outstanding citizens. Capisce?

As for your last statement, well, Israel is the "occupier" remember? Only Israel's actions, as in state sponsored terrorism benefit Hamas.Hamas do not need me or others here on PH to benefit them. Israel is doing a fine job of rallying the whole Palestinian population around Hamas. The sooner Israel knows that, the better.

Incidentally, the best chances for Israel to achieve peace have come and gone, never to return I guess.It was when Arafat was at the head of a secular Fatah. Dealing with a secular Fatah provided the best opportunity to deal with people who are not motivated by religion and extremism.

Well, Israel's lack of vision and will for peace at the time meant they exercised pressure on Arafat and Fatah, and helped destabilise them by helping financially and logistically the creation of Hamas, and giving it enough force to threaten Fatah. You reap what you sow, and now Hamas, the Islamists who were Israel's creation are a thorn on its side.

Had Israel agreed to the two state solution with Fatah (regardless of corruption etc...) as the main party and Palestine as a sovereign country in the real sense of the word and as outlined by Fatah at the time, we would have had a secular Palestine, and Hamas would have been consigned to history books. I could say Israel never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.




Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 July 13:40

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Having read and contributed to this thread, it is clear that there is nothing more to be said the those PHers who can justify, and are seemigly comfortbale with the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians in Gaza. In fact, it would seem that there is nothing beyond the pale when it comes to Irsraeli options for dealing with the Gazans. The PH humanitarians are wasting their time.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
s1962a said:
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?
Why do you ask? Surely Hamas would never use captured prisoners as human shields. Such behaviour is clearly in breach of the Geneva convention.
I disagree - they are capable of this.

So in this scenario bomb this house or not?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
Having read and contributed to this thread, it is clear that there is nothing more to be said the those PHers who can justify, and are seemigly comfortbale with the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians in Gaza. In fact, it would seem that there is nothing beyond the pale when it comes to Irsraeli options for dealing with the Gazans. The PH humanitarians are wasting their time.
OK, take your point.

however, just to be clear as you against the IDF's current policies, what exactly would you propose they do to resolve the issues?

when you have the answer, I am sure they would love to hear from you.

Do you honestly think they want to have to do this? quite apart from the human tragedies going on a daily basis, do you not this that Israel would love NOT to have to spend a very high proportion of their GDP on defence?

don't you think the reservists that are constantly having to be called up would rather not have to be risking life and limb in these operations?

Let's be clear here, NOBODY wants this, except HAMAS.


Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
la bla bla, more nonesense. If you assert that there is a bottle of whiskey in your neighbour's garden at least provide some evidence, that's what we're discussing here, concrete evidence, do not respond to me by saying "Oh no you provide evidence that said bottle of Whiskey is not there!".That's just plain dumb. Replace bottle of Whiskey with UFO, God, Angel or Mr Tumble.The conclusion is always the same! The onus is on you to provide empirical evidence, otherwise anyone can claim anything about anybody whether they are murderous thugs or outstanding citizens. Capisce?

As for your last statement, well, Israel is the "occupier" remember? Only Israel's actions, as in state sponsored terrorism benefit Hamas.Hamas do not need me or others here on PH to benefit them. Israel is doing a fine job of rallying the whole Palestinian population around it. The sooner Israel knows that, the better.

Incidentally, the best chances for Israel to achieve peace have come and gone, never to return I guess.It was when Arafat was at the head of a secular Fatah. Dealing with a secular Fatah provided the best opportunity to deal with people who are not motivated by religion and extremism.

Well, Israel's lack of vision and will for peace at the time meant they exercised pressure on Arafat and Fatah, and helped destabilise them by helping financially and logistically the creation of Hamas, and giving it enough force to threaten Fatah. You reap what you sow, and now Hamas, the Islamists who were Israel's creation are a thorn on its side.

Had Israel agreed to the two state solution with Fatah (regardless of corruption etc...) as the main party and Palestine as a sovereign country in the real sense of the word and as outlined by Fatah at the time, we would have had a secular Palestine, and Hamas would have been consigned to history books. I could say Israel never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.
Toys pram, bigger bang.

You are clearly have such a profound and deep understanding of the subject I am sure my wisdom can add nothing to your profound bigotry.


Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
You clearly missed
s1962a said:
Mrr T said:
s1962a said:
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?
Why do you ask? Surely Hamas would never use captured prisoners as human shields. Such behaviour is clearly in breach of the Geneva convention.
I disagree - they are capable of this.

So in this scenario bomb this house or not?
Did you miss the irony in my reply.

The answer is it would depend. Killing your own team is not good for moral. However, the chances of him surviving the srtike, the presence of Hamas senior commanders, an expectation he is unlikely to survive anyway, the possibilities he is already being tortured, might make it an option. Decisions in military conflicts are never easy.

Since I answered your question, please answer mine.

If Israel stops causing civil casualties in Gaza which pretty much means stopping firing at Hamas, do you believe Hamas will stop lobbing missiles and sending suicide bomber into Israel.

s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
You clearly missed
s1962a said:
Mrr T said:
s1962a said:
I have a hypothetical question for you:-

The missing Israeli Soldier - if the IDF located him say in a house with 10 militants guarding him, should they bomb the house knowing he is in there?
Why do you ask? Surely Hamas would never use captured prisoners as human shields. Such behaviour is clearly in breach of the Geneva convention.
I disagree - they are capable of this.

So in this scenario bomb this house or not?
Did you miss the irony in my reply.

The answer is it would depend. Killing your own team is not good for moral. However, the chances of him surviving the srtike, the presence of Hamas senior commanders, an expectation he is unlikely to survive anyway, the possibilities he is already being tortured, might make it an option. Decisions in military conflicts are never easy.

Since I answered your question, please answer mine.

If Israel stops causing civil casualties in Gaza which pretty much means stopping firing at Hamas, do you believe Hamas will stop lobbing missiles and sending suicide bomber into Israel.
I don't know enough about hamas to suggest anything. News reports say they have asked for an easing of the blockade of Gaza in return for a ceasefire. No idea what they would do.

My point is around the killing of innocent children. I wonder if the IDF deliberate as hard as you have suggested when they wipe out an entire family to target one militant.

allnighter

6,663 posts

221 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
la bla bla, more nonesense. If you assert that there is a bottle of whiskey in your neighbour's garden at least provide some evidence, that's what we're discussing here, concrete evidence, do not respond to me by saying "Oh no you provide evidence that said bottle of Whiskey is not there!".That's just plain dumb. Replace bottle of Whiskey with UFO, God, Angel or Mr Tumble.The conclusion is always the same! The onus is on you to provide empirical evidence, otherwise anyone can claim anything about anybody whether they are murderous thugs or outstanding citizens. Capisce?

As for your last statement, well, Israel is the "occupier" remember? Only Israel's actions, as in state sponsored terrorism benefit Hamas.Hamas do not need me or others here on PH to benefit them. Israel is doing a fine job of rallying the whole Palestinian population around it. The sooner Israel knows that, the better.

Incidentally, the best chances for Israel to achieve peace have come and gone, never to return I guess.It was when Arafat was at the head of a secular Fatah. Dealing with a secular Fatah provided the best opportunity to deal with people who are not motivated by religion and extremism.

Well, Israel's lack of vision and will for peace at the time meant they exercised pressure on Arafat and Fatah, and helped destabilise them by helping financially and logistically the creation of Hamas, and giving it enough force to threaten Fatah. You reap what you sow, and now Hamas, the Islamists who were Israel's creation are a thorn on its side.

Had Israel agreed to the two state solution with Fatah (regardless of corruption etc...) as the main party and Palestine as a sovereign country in the real sense of the word and as outlined by Fatah at the time, we would have had a secular Palestine, and Hamas would have been consigned to history books. I could say Israel never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.
Toys pram, bigger bang.

You are clearly have such a profound and deep understanding of the subject I am sure my wisdom can add nothing to your profound bigotry.
Really? Did you just say that with a straight face? honestly?

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
la bla bla, more nonesense. If you assert that there is a bottle of whiskey in your neighbour's garden at least provide some evidence, that's what we're discussing here, concrete evidence, do not respond to me by saying "Oh no you provide evidence that said bottle of Whiskey is not there!".That's just plain dumb. Replace bottle of Whiskey with UFO, God, Angel or Mr Tumble.The conclusion is always the same! The onus is on you to provide empirical evidence, otherwise anyone can claim anything about anybody whether they are murderous thugs or outstanding citizens. Capisce?

As for your last statement, well, Israel is the "occupier" remember? Only Israel's actions, as in state sponsored terrorism benefit Hamas.Hamas do not need me or others here on PH to benefit them. Israel is doing a fine job of rallying the whole Palestinian population around it. The sooner Israel knows that, the better.

Incidentally, the best chances for Israel to achieve peace have come and gone, never to return I guess.It was when Arafat was at the head of a secular Fatah. Dealing with a secular Fatah provided the best opportunity to deal with people who are not motivated by religion and extremism.

Well, Israel's lack of vision and will for peace at the time meant they exercised pressure on Arafat and Fatah, and helped destabilise them by helping financially and logistically the creation of Hamas, and giving it enough force to threaten Fatah. You reap what you sow, and now Hamas, the Islamists who were Israel's creation are a thorn on its side.

Had Israel agreed to the two state solution with Fatah (regardless of corruption etc...) as the main party and Palestine as a sovereign country in the real sense of the word and as outlined by Fatah at the time, we would have had a secular Palestine, and Hamas would have been consigned to history books. I could say Israel never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace.
Toys pram, bigger bang.

You are clearly have such a profound and deep understanding of the subject I am sure my wisdom can add nothing to your profound bigotry.
Really? Did you just say that with a straight face? honestly?
Yes.

FredClogs

14,041 posts

160 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Do you honestly think they want to have to do this?
Yes, I do. I think that within the Israeli society and zionist sympathisers around the world there is a decent minority who wish Israel to finalise what they started in 1967 and take Gaza and the West bank within it's sovereign rule, this half way house pretense which they've kept up for almost 50 years suits no one and they feel if Israel is to gain any long term stability in the region it must expand its borders and enforce itself in the region as a strong signal to Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi that it can't be fecked with and there is a very real and pragmatic question of it's water security as well. I've heard the argument from many both religious zionists and non religious cultural jews, lots of people feel that to survive Israel needs to expand it's control and not back down. Given what's going on in Syria and the cluster fk that was the Arab spring I can't see that argument has diminished of late.