Israeli

[JagLover]

s1962a said:

What is the issue with lifting the blockade and allowing free trade? If it's a case of arms getting in then surely that point is irrelevant given the number of tunnels already found would have facilitated this already.

Bit hard to smuggle larger rocket launchers and other heavy weaponry through a tunnel.

That is the issue as whatever ordinance Hamas acquires it will be free to fire at Israel with impunity (according to some posters on here)

[skyrover]

Assuming Israel pulls out and stops all military action... what do you propose next?

Obviously peace talk will be a good start, but how long will that take?

We know that Hamas will continue to fire rockets into Israel regardless... should Israel just sit there and get pounded?

[s1962a]

JagLover said:

s1962a said:

What is the issue with lifting the blockade and allowing free trade? If it's a case of arms getting in then surely that point is irrelevant given the number of tunnels already found would have facilitated this already.

Bit hard to smuggle larger rocket launchers and other heavy weaponry through a tunnel.

That is the issue as whatever ordinance Hamas acquires it will be free to fire at Israel with impunity (according to some posters on here)

Egypt and Israel could surely have some sort of customs to stop that kind of thing

[s1962a]

skyrover said:

Assuming Israel pulls out and stops all military action... what do you propose next?

Obviously peace talk will be a good start, but how long will that take?

We know that Hamas will continue to fire rockets into Israel regardless... should Israel just sit there and get pounded?

Lifting the economic blockade will apparently halt these rockets

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28431945

[Lost soul]

This is an interesting clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2trFcUqTH8

[Mr Snap]

Mrr T said:

Stuff

You've merely proved that you can't provide evidence.

But I can see your logic; if you were an Israeli, it would present reason enough to bomb a few innocent children.

Calling allnighter a bigot suggests limited self-knowledge.

[FredClogs]

JagLover said:

s1962a said:

What is the issue with lifting the blockade and allowing free trade? If it's a case of arms getting in then surely that point is irrelevant given the number of tunnels already found would have facilitated this already.

Bit hard to smuggle larger rocket launchers and other heavy weaponry through a tunnel.

That is the issue as whatever ordinance Hamas acquires it will be free to fire at Israel with impunity (according to some posters on here)

I think it's entirely reasonable for the international authorities to suggest that Gaza selling olives is okay, selling industrial services is ok, buying farm machinery is ok, buying medical supplies is ok but buying large rocket launchers is perhaps not ok...

It's true though that Gaza is underdeveloped, it's a failed society with big socio economic problems, you only need look at Google earth to see how damaged the infrastructure has been, it is under siege - in the most medieval sense and has been for nearly 20 years, it's a diabolical state of affairs one that won't be fixed by the people of Gaza, they are literally helpless and alone as everybody knows, Israel can wait - it's only a matter of time, another 20, 30, 50 years... sooner or later Gaza will be theirs.

[skyrover]

s1962a said:

Lifting the economic blockade will apparently halt these rockets

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28431945

And if it does not?

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Stuff

You've merely proved that you can't provide evidence.

But I can see your logic; if you were an Israeli, it would present reason enough to bomb a few innocent children.

Calling allnighter a bigot suggests limited self-knowledge.

You diminish my research into allnighter revisionist history of the Arab/Israeli conflicts into "STUFF".

Not sure what I am supported to prove but these are the 2 books I have read on the conflict. Both are fully researched with references and take a very different view on events to those posted by allnighter in his history.

Take your choice who you believe.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Six-Day-War-1967/dp/18...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Days-War-Making-Modern...

Saying I have "limited self knowledge" shows you are.............(fill in as applicable).

[Mr Snap]

Mrr T said:

Pompous, patronising stuff.

Saying I have "limited self knowledge" shows you are an excellent judge of character.

EFA

[JuniorD]

A Norweigan volunteer doctor in Palestine invites Obama to visit their hospital.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/israelga...

[Mermaid]

JuniorD said:

A Norweigan volunteer doctor in Palestine invites Obama to visit their hospital.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/israelga...

No war is pretty or fragrant, but yes heart goes out to innocent victims relying on meagre resources - seen so often in other conflicts too.

Incentive to stop fighting for ever? That's what Obama needs to deliver -if necessary in an autocratic fashion.

[Mrr T]

JagLover said:

Bit hard to smuggle larger rocket launchers and other heavy weaponry through a tunnel.

If you look at some of the pictures of the tunnels you will see we are not talking Colditz here. Some where big enough for lorries to drive through.

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Pompous, patronising stuff.

Saying I have "limited self knowledge" shows you are an excellent judge of character.

EFA

QED

[Mrr T]

JuniorD said:

A Norweigan volunteer doctor in Palestine invites Obama to visit their hospital.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/israelga...

I note she did not suggest to the Hamas leadership it would be a good idea to stop lobbing rockets into Israel.

[Rocksteadyeddie]

The lack of compassion, and inability to see the "opposing" side of the argument by some of the contributors to this thread is truly breathtaking at times. You know who you are and should have a long hard look at yourselves.

Two articles that caught my attention this morning. The first an open letter from a volunteer Norweigan doctor to President Obama.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/israelga...

The second a blog-post by the Channel 4 anchor, Jon Snow.

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/people-gaza-gra...

It's hard to read that stuff and believe that the Israeli response is (and has been over the last umpteen years) anything but disproportionate.

My friend and her daughter arrive from Israel this evening. They live about 6 miles from Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv. She has told my wife of the awful seige like conditions in which they are currently living, and the constant threat from Hamas rockets. Of course, she has the option to escape to London for a few days. Gazans have no choice to escape to anywhere.

The whole thing is an unholy mess, but it strikes me that the notion of repressing almost 2 million people. To give them no hope for the future. No prosperity. Nothing to focus on, or work towards, cannot possibly bring peace to the region. The wall that Israel has constructed through the heart of Jerusalem is a poignant symbol of the "them and us" cultue that some in Israeli politics continue to foster. On seeing it first hand I thought it utterly disgusting, and totally counterproductive to a long term solution. Easy to view from a far of course.

[jonnydm]

There isn't a wall through the heart of Jerusalem.

[s1962a]

skyrover said:

s1962a said:

Lifting the economic blockade will apparently halt these rockets

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28431945

And if it does not?

This situation won't be fixed overnight - it's gone on far too long for it to be this quick, but look at the bigger picture. Giving Gazans access to the outside world will allow them to resume trade and build their lives. They can have access to medicine, food, education and rebuilding their city. Over time hamas would possibly be marginalised as they won't be able to control resources anymore, and thus won't have much power over the people of gaza, no matter how much they terrorise them. That sounds like the building blocks to a 2 state solution.

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

Mr Snap said:

Mrr T said:

Stuff

You've merely proved that you can't provide evidence.

But I can see your logic; if you were an Israeli, it would present reason enough to bomb a few innocent children.

Calling allnighter a bigot suggests limited self-knowledge.

You diminish my research into allnighter revisionist history of the Arab/Israeli conflicts into "STUFF".

Not sure what I am supported to prove but these are the 2 books I have read on the conflict. Both are fully researched with references and take a very different view on events to those posted by allnighter in his history.

Take your choice who you believe.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Six-Day-War-1967/dp/18...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Days-War-Making-Modern...

Saying I have "limited self knowledge" shows you are.............(fill in as applicable).

I am familiar with the second book by Michael Oren and I have to say you cannot get any more biased viewpoint coming from such a vocal right wing author.Impartial, he is NOT. Researched? hardly!

A critical review of the book by Norman Finkelstein reveals exactly what I am trying to convey.

"Oren claims that the IDF, unable to handle the throngs of Egyptian prisoners, dispatched them toward the Canal and was at pains not to harm them, and "no evidence was found" that Israel executed Egyptian POWs (SDW: pp. 259, 270-1). He is apparently unaware of the national debate that erupted in Israel a few years ago after the publication of unimpeachable eyewitness testimonies of Israeli soldiers as well as the testimony of an Israeli military historian that the IDF executed scores of Egyptian POWs during the June war. Oren also claims that only a "few" of the Palestinians who fled during the June war sought repatriation after it ended (SDW: 306), whereas a conservative Israeli scholarly source reports that fully 120,000 of these Palestinian refugees (half the total number) applied to return but only 21,000 were allowed to do so. Finally, in his survey of developments since the June war, Oren recalls that in the post-Oslo period "Palestinian terrorists killed dozens of Israeli civilians" (SDW: p. 313), but neglects to mention that Israeli forces killed a far greater number of Palestinians and that the "vast majority" of these killings were "unlawful" (Amnesty International)."

Full review here http://www.ussliberty.org/orenbook.htm

So that's it ? You read two books, one of them proved extremely biased and all of a sudden you have complete knowledge on the history of the conflict? FAIL! Try and read everything you can lay your hands on whether it agrees with you or not, then make up your mind afterwards.

Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 23 July 11:54

[allnighter]

Mrr T said:

Bla bla bla
Your view not a fact.

Any reference, or link, which disagrees with your revisionist stance is probably written by a rabid anti-Israel propagandist. Righhht!