Israeli

[Mrr T]

Mr Snap said:

I see you're a fan of the parsing ploy to shut down argument. That's two ploys, if you take into account you expecting others to supply citations yet fail to do the same yourself. You still haven't backed up your claims that I referred to earlier.

Please tell me which claims I should back up and I will do so.

Mr Snap said:

Parts of Oren's book were well received by Rodenbeck, other parts less so (did you actually read to the end of the review?). However, what is not out of the question amongst many western commentators is Oren's hard-line support for zionism.

Here are two commentators who are far less than impressed by Oren:-

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/04/09/mic...
http://972mag.com/omissions-half-truths-and-lies-r...

The sad fact is that in the minds of many ultra-zionists Oren is a dangerous anti-zionist..
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article...

I did read the review by Rodenbeck. I also know its also criticises some aspects of the book. That's why I posted it, because it seemed a balanced review.

You do realise the 2 links you have provided are to a different book by Oren not the one I suggested.

[Countdown]

Mrr T said:

The reasons are:

Gaza - Is not an occupied territory so why should it get to vote in Israeli elections. Should the Israelis be able to vote in Gaza.

It's a bit of a moot point. I would argue that Gaza is effectively occupied and controlled by Israel as a result of the blockade.

Mrr T said:

West Bank - This is clearly political since the population would have considerable influence in Israeli elections. The issues of the West Bank tend to get overlooked because of the Hamas in Gaza. My own view is I cannot defend Israel's clear lack of progress in implementing the map for peace in the West Bank.

"Populations having influence via elections" is how democracies work.

Up until quite recently the West Bank and Gaza had different political leaderships. This had zero effect on the peace process and zero benefit for the Palestinians in the West Bank. Settlement building continues apace.

[Mr Snap]

Mrr T said:

Mr Snap said:

I see you're a fan of the parsing ploy to shut down argument. That's two ploys, if you take into account you expecting others to supply citations yet fail to do the same yourself. You still haven't backed up your claims that I referred to earlier.

Please tell me which claims I should back up and I will do so.

Mr Snap said:

Parts of Oren's book were well received by Rodenbeck, other parts less so (did you actually read to the end of the review?). However, what is not out of the question amongst many western commentators is Oren's hard-line support for zionism.

Here are two commentators who are far less than impressed by Oren:-

http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/04/09/mic...
http://972mag.com/omissions-half-truths-and-lies-r...

The sad fact is that in the minds of many ultra-zionists Oren is a dangerous anti-zionist..
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article...

I did read the review by Rodenbeck. I also know its also criticises some aspects of the book. That's why I posted it, because it seemed a balanced review.

You do realise the 2 links you have provided are to a different book by Oren not the one I suggested.

No. Why should I explain to you anything about your own comments? You're the one who expects other people to provide fully annotated citations.

Relying on Oren's accounts is a bit like asking Danial Hannan to provide a completely unbiased summary on the formation of the EU. It may not be as rabid as Nigel Farage's but it's never going to be truly objectivity. As an ex Israeli Ambassador to the US, his ideological stance can never truly reflect the views of Gazan's or those living in the WB.

I'm perfectly aware that the comments refer to other publications by Oren. Why do you think I said "Here are two commentators who are far less than impressed by Oren" rather than ""Here are two people who disagree with Oren's views as expressed in....".

Once again you seem to be trying to use a trivial ploy to divert attention from an argument you're losing. I do note, however, that you're now conceding that Palestinians on the WB have some reason to be angry about settlements. Have you ever wondered where the refugees who, forced by the settlements to leave the WB have ended up?

Here's where:

"The Gaza Strip is home to a population of more than 1.5 million people, including 1.2 million Palestine refugees.

For the last decade, the socioeconomic situation in Gaza has been in steady decline. Years of conflict and closure have left 80 per cent of the population dependent on international assistance. The tightened blockade, imposed following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in June 2007, has decimated lives and livelihoods, resulting in the impoverishment and de-development of a highly skilled and well-educated society. Despite adjustments made to the blockade by the Government of Israel in June 2010, restrictions on imports and exports continue to severely hamper recovery and reconstruction.

Over half a million Palestine refugees in Gaza live in the eight recognized Palestine refugee camps, which have one of the highest population densities in the world.

The blockade has had a devastating impact on Palestine refugees, including those living in Palestine refugee camps. Unemployment continues to be at unprecedented levels, particularly among young people....

........FACTS & FIGURES

1,240,082 registered Palestine refugees
Eight camps
245 schools with 232,384 pupils
Two vocational and technical training centres
22 primary health centres
Eight community rehabilitation centres
Ten women’s programme centres".

Statement and figures UNWRA Jan 2014

Does it now not occur to you that out of some 1.2 million refugees, some might have legitimate claims about losing their homes and, therefore, might understandably resort to terrorism when their claims are ignored and unmet?
Who would you hold to blame for this? Hamas? Other Palestinians?
The root cause of Hamas is the behaviour of Israel towards the people of Palestine. Until Israel ceases settlements and returns the stolen land to those who lost it, Israel will remain the root cause of terrorism in Gaza.

[Mr Snap]

Oh, and I wonder how the elections in Israel might go if the 1.2 million refugees were allowed to vote in the elections from the country they were forced out of? Let alone the 5 million forced out since 1948/49.

Edited by Mr Snap on Wednesday 23 July 18:16

[JagLover]

Mr Snap said:

Does it now not occur to you that out of some 1.2 million refugees, some might have legitimate claims about losing their homes and, therefore, might understandably resort to terrorism when their claims are ignored and unmet?
Who would you hold to blame for this? Hamas? Other Palestinians?
The root cause of Hamas is the behaviour of Israel towards the people of Palestine. Until Israel ceases settlements and returns the stolen land to those who lost it, Israel will remain the root cause of terrorism in Gaza.

Israel did evacuate all its settlements in the Gaza strip when it left the territory, so what further territory is it supposed to return to the people of Gaza?.

[2013BRM]

Dunno about Gaza but it's fairly snapping it up in Bethlehem

[JagLover]

franki68 said:

obviously he cannot know how you specifically feel,but I think it was more of a general observation which is valid.Its not really debatable the level of attention the israel -palestine conflict gets far exceeds any other 'human tradgedies'
I would also think that recent events (manchester ,france) show huge evidence of a link between anti-semitism and the anti-israel lobby ,that is not to imply that all anti-israelis are anti-semites,far from it,but there is a definite association.
the anti-israel brigade attracts anti-semites and the pro-israel brigade attracts islamaphobes ,that is a fact as someone likes to say.

Indeed

I am not claiming that most anti-Israeli posters are bigots (though there have been a couple on this thread), but that they have fallen in with a media agenda.

To take a recent example of civilians being killed by western air forces about 500 civilians were killed by allied warplanes in Yugoslavia in the bombing campaign over Kosovo. The western media didn't have people on the ground talking to survivors, or drawing up charts of 'child' deaths. They didn't care because it was our planes and a war they mostly agreed with.

To go back to the example of Sri Lanka. The deaths of 40,000 civilians many of whom were in a supposed "safe zone" for the most part passed unremarked in the media, with the exception of Channel 4 news I recall.

Every conflict, particularly one in a heavily populated urban area, is going to have a significant proportion of civilian casualties, the vast majority of whom will go entirely unnoticed in the western world.

The people of Gaza, led by their elected government, are waging war on Israel and can expect war to be waged on them in return. No country in the world would permit rockets to be fired on their territory without reprisal.

[Mr Snap]

JagLover said:

Mr Snap said:

Does it now not occur to you that out of some 1.2 million refugees, some might have legitimate claims about losing their homes and, therefore, might understandably resort to terrorism when their claims are ignored and unmet?
Who would you hold to blame for this? Hamas? Other Palestinians?
The root cause of Hamas is the behaviour of Israel towards the people of Palestine. Until Israel ceases settlements and returns the stolen land to those who lost it, Israel will remain the root cause of terrorism in Gaza.

Israel did evacuate all its settlements in the Gaza strip when it left the territory, so what further territory is it supposed to return to the people of Gaza?.

The 1.2 million refugees in Gaza, don't come from Gaza (that's why they're called refugees. If they came from Gaza, they wouldn't be refugees...). They come from what used to be Mandatory Palestine (the bit we Brits used to run but handed over to the zionists and told them to do what they wanted).

[JagLover]

Mr Snap said:

The 1.2 million refugees in Gaza, don't come from Gaza (that's why they're called refugees. If they came from Gaza, they wouldn't be refugees...). They come from what used to be Mandatory Palestine (the bit we Brits used to run but handed over to the zionists and told them to do what they wanted).

Well to be exact for the most part their parents and grandparents did.

On the other side a roughly similar number of Jews were expelled or driven out of Arab lands, so why should it be Israel's problem now?

There will never be peace with a right of return, and wishing for one is a pipe dream. Saying that Gazans can lob rockets until it comes is therefore to call for unending war.

[anonymous-user]

Jaglover - don't assume that anyone is following anyone else's agenda just because the common consensus is that most people agree what the Israelis are doing is wrong.
Be careful about throwing around loosely veiled allegations of anti-Semitism to, that card is wearing very thin.
Being against Israeli military policy is not the same as being against Israel is not the same as being anti-Jew is not the same as being pro-Hamas. But you know that don't you, you just choose to make the link that isn't there when what you are hearing isn't what you want to hear.

[Mermaid]

Humanitarian truce soon.

[anonymous-user]

Jaglover - the IRA fired mortars into British territory and I don't remember 500 or so Irish or N.I civilians being killed in each round of fighting.
Reprisals, as you call them - carefully targeted, bring it on! Sloppily meted out resulting in massive civilian deaths - that's terrorist, it's racist, it's inhuman, it's evil.

[supersingle]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If you look at the protests around the Western World you see groups showing solidarity with Israel demonstrating peacefully and politely without racial or religious aggravation. They have been violently attacked by groups sympathetic to the Palestinians who make it quite clear how much they hate Israel and Jews in general. Take a look a the pro-Palestinian marches that have occurred in Paris, Berlin and London in the last week. Violence and Jew hatred has been evident for all to see. Not every anti-Israeli hates Jews, but anti Semitism amongst the Left has a long history and is still very much with us.

[anonymous-user]

But the Israelis are still wrong.

[kitz]

Apartheid State IDF 666
Refugee snakes 34

The snakes reference comes from Ayelet Shaked a member of the Israeli Knesset
who was also Netanyahu office director 2006-2008
She said
'Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women.
They are all enemy combatants and their blood shall be on their heads.
Now this includes the mother of the martyrs.
They should follow their sons,nothing would be more just .
They should go as should the physical houses in which they raised the snakes.
Otherwise more little snakes will be raised there .

I doubt she or the people who voted for her are concerned about the mass murder that's taking place .

[Mr Snap]

JagLover said:

Mr Snap said:

The 1.2 million refugees in Gaza, don't come from Gaza (that's why they're called refugees. If they came from Gaza, they wouldn't be refugees...). They come from what used to be Mandatory Palestine (the bit we Brits used to run but handed over to the zionists and told them to do what they wanted).

Well to be exact for the most part their parents and grandparents did.

On the other side a roughly similar number of Jews were expelled or driven out of Arab lands, so why should it be Israel's problem now?

There will never be peace with a right of return, and wishing for one is a pipe dream. Saying that Gazans can lob rockets until it comes is therefore to call for unending war.

The majority of refugees did not come from Gaza, nor did their parent's or grandparents. The majority have come from land stolen since 1967. Look at the maps posted a few pages back.

The Jews who lost their homes have been successfully rehoused and have settled on land that were previously Palestinian, not forced into vast under-resourced camps which survive at the whim of a foreign power. Besides, the majority of middle eastern Jewish refugees didn't come from the Mandate, they were thrown out of other adjacent countries. The Palestinians themselves were not, by and large, responsible for their Jewish refugee status - however, it is Palestinians who suffer their wrath.

Why should there not be a right of return? The land was stolen. Failure to understand this grievance is the key to the whole issue. Without taking the Palestinian perspective into account (and attempting to do something about it) means there will be no peace. Statements like "There can never be peace with a right of return" is telling the Palestinian refugees that they can have no hope. And yet you seem surprised that they turn to terrorism..?

Only the Israelis have any real ability to de-escalate the situation. If the Israelis do not stop building settlements and displacing more innocent people, the Palestinians will continue to know they have no future. Israel is breeding terrorists in the camps of Gaza and on the slopes of the WB.

[vonuber]

I just can't fathom what the Israelis are hoping to achieve here.

[Mr Snap]

JagLover said:

Indeed

I am not claiming that most anti-Israeli posters are bigots (though there have been a couple on this thread), but that they have fallen in with a media agenda.

Do you reckon these chaps are bigoted anti-semites falling in with the "media agenda" (BTW Isn't "media agenda" copyright Nigel Farage?)

http://www.truetorahjews.org

Or these,

http://www.nkusa.org

Or these,

https://www.facebook.com/Zionocracy

[discusdave]

just a quick question..

how many rockets where fired before the wall was built ??

[Qwert1e]

Mr Snap said:

Israel is breeding terrorists in the camps of Gaza and on the slopes of the WB.

I suspect you are right.

Which begs the question, "does Israel care?", to which I think the answer is, "no".

In the long run Israel cannot IMO win. It thinks it is winning when it goes out and destroys the homes and infrastructure of its supposed "enemies" but all it is doing is building its long term isolation. I fear the strategic significance of Iran/Iraq/Syria will eventually result in little Israel being seen as an embarrassment on the global stage.