Discussion
Pappa Lurve, Israel treating Hamas kids? Like to see evidence. Would be nice if they cared more for the children of non-militant Palestinians.
IRA subjected NI and the mainland to sniper, machinegun, mortar, rocket, car bomb, bin bomb and firebomb attacks. Had we subjected the ordinary NI Catholic Republicans to such discrimination and terror then the support for the IRA would have been stronger and their resolve would have been strengthened.
IRA subjected NI and the mainland to sniper, machinegun, mortar, rocket, car bomb, bin bomb and firebomb attacks. Had we subjected the ordinary NI Catholic Republicans to such discrimination and terror then the support for the IRA would have been stronger and their resolve would have been strengthened.
S 8 GRN said:
I can appreciate how you can come to this position though I would say that this is not always the case and examples are always worth discussion. It is a spiral though and speaking personally the greater the anti-Semitism the stronger my Zionism becomes and so on and so forth. Though as stated before I unequivocally disagree with the current situation and actions.
Can you expand on the bit in bold?I might be misinterpreting what you mean, but it just seems like a self-defeating prophecy. There's a whole set of ideas and values and beliefs to any religion, and only one of Judaism's is about ownership of some arbitrary land. When either under attack or making a response, conflating Zionism with Judaism or Jewishness, or simply retreating into and taking cover in the Zionist idea, seems only to fuel the fire. If you blur the lines between the two in your own beliefs, is it any surprise that they become blurred for the people looking in? And people have legitimate hate for the Zionist idea.
I bear no ill will against Jews, who for many people carry a lot of historical credit, but I do have a great contempt for the contemporary Israeli state and those that (uncritically?) support it. This differentiation is much the same as I feel regarding Muslims and radical Islam.
Not everyone combines the religion with the idea. I'm not Jewish myself, so I'm not particularly well clued up, but for instance that's why Independent Jewish Voices exists, because its predominantly left wing founders were tired of the BoD being more about Israel than Judaism.
JagLover said:
Hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians have died in most recent conflicts. It is how the media chooses to report on them that is key.
If the dead civilians are Serbs, or Tamils, their passing is almost entirely unremarked.
Another one! If the dead civilians are Serbs, or Tamils, their passing is almost entirely unremarked.
Were 800 Serbs killed by the Bosnian government these last few weeks?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had difficulties with comprehension, read what I wrote again, did I dispute any of that? did I support what the Israelis have done? All I have said is that the media, esp the BBC, has a bias. and if people take their info from that it will come across as anti Israel, bugger all to do with them being anti-semitic. Scuffers said:
2013BRM said:
The media is very anti Israel and, as pappa lurve pointed out a little incorrect, what people type here is down to that not anti semitism
the basic difference between the sides is that one actually is doing all it can to defend it's public, the other is using them as cannon fodder.you can jump up and down all you like, but the simple fact remains that without Hamas, it's highly likely a deal would have been done by now.
Abbas is not perfect, but realises this and is working on it, all be it hamstrung by Hamas nutters.
2013BRM - would like you to suggest evidence of BBC bias instead of continually throwing up pointless strawman arguments.
If you don't deny what we believe to be the truth then how can you deny that there is a real and valid reason, based on hard facts, for a general dislike of the current Israeli actions?
If you don't deny what we believe to be the truth then how can you deny that there is a real and valid reason, based on hard facts, for a general dislike of the current Israeli actions?
Apartheid state IDF has suffered 34 dead soldiers .There are 803 dead Palestinians .
How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
The total destruction of the Gaza infrastructure will lead to death of thousands in the future
with little international notice .
How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
The total destruction of the Gaza infrastructure will lead to death of thousands in the future
with little international notice .
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Ok, first of all I, unlike you, am not an expert in the ME, I have, however visited Israel several times including Bethlehem. I don't intend to do so any more because I strongly disprove of their unrelenting expansion. I monitor the news on AJ as well as CNN, BBc etc and there is, unsurprisingly, a vast difference in what is reported, the West fails to report what Hammas is chucking at Israel and the effects it has on them. Now I'm out as this is a topic way too emotive for a lightweight like myself
2013BRM said:
jumping up and down? that suggests I am upset about something, all I am trying to do is explain why some feel there is an anti Semitic tendency among some here, in fact are you sure you quoted the correct post?
sorry, badly put, it was not a comment on your post so much as the subject....Pappa Lurve said:
Countdown said:
Pappa Lurve
The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
The Settlements removed from the Gaza Strip were relocated to the West Bank. Only because they would be easier to defend there. By the way there are plenty of maps which show how the Settlements in the WB have grown. Btw nobody has been banging on about settlements in Gaza,
Israel charges the Palestinians for water and electricity. They aren't supplied free of charge.
And here are the views of another Jewish person who knows Israel quite well.
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/
Then please comment on the Egypt issue.
IRA comparisons? Civil Defence? Non-elections? WB having a far better situation? Thousands of missiles a year, every year, for years. Hamas leaders kids being treated in Israel? I guess not relevant factors.
Edited by Pappa Lurve on Friday 25th July 01:30
What is the Gaza strip? Is it a country in its own right free to make decisions? Is it heck, its a huge modern day concentration camp and as far as the women and children living there are concerned, the Israeli missiles are the modern day equivalent of gas chambers.
As for the IRA, just because you claimed it, doesn't make it true. They did target civilians in the UK. You must have been busy in your factory in Israel at the time.
Every pro Israeli poster I read wants to divert away from what is happening here. An oppressed people who believe they have no alternative but to turn to the support of those who believe in armed resistance are being wiped out. This won't end well for anyone. Short term military victory will never give Israel the peace and security they want.
The Israeli's don't want a 2 state solution. They don't want to negotiate, they don't want peace. They want conquest.
Lifting the blockade so that the Gazan people have a chance to live like human beings and then make decisions like human beings is not what Israel wants.
kitz said:
Apartheid state IDF has suffered 34 dead soldiers .There are 803 dead Palestinians .
How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
You don't see then that 34 dead soldiers in a well equipped and well trained army indicates there is some heavy fighting going on?, and if those fighting them are using civilians as human shields there will be heavy civilian casualties?.How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
A recent example from other conflicts is the battle of Fallujah in Iraq which left 800 civilians killed.
kitz said:
Apartheid state IDF has suffered 34 dead soldiers .There are 803 dead Palestinians .
How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
The total destruction of the Gaza infrastructure will lead to death of thousands in the future
with little international notice .
you're talking complete crap!How can anyone with a shred of decency defend the ongoing mass murder.
How can anyone with an ounce of humanity fail to condemn the ongoing mass murder .
The total destruction of the Gaza infrastructure will lead to death of thousands in the future
with little international notice .
yes, there are only a few deaths on the israeli side, however, that's not through lack of Hamas trying, it's because the israeli government has taken whatever steps it can to protect it's people, ie:
every house has a shelter
Iron dome
highly trained IDF
on the other hand with have Hamas, who:
actively involve civilians in their war
place rocket launchers in civicial areas
block the movement of civilians out of harms way
spend all the aid money on buying rockets, building tunnels, etc rather than looking after the public.
would you be happier if Israel did not have iron dome and the death toll was in the hundreds from the 2,000+ rockets fired in the last 2 week?
would that make it fair?
are you deluded?
Just as upsetting as the number of dead is the number of injured. Many of them, which includes a large proportion of children, have "life changing injuries". Even if they are treated, how hard will it be for them to recover? The hospitals are f
ked and have little space or resources. They can't go home to a comfortable house to get better; they'll still be living in a wrecked war zone like refugees. I can only imagine the utter difficulties these people will face. Israelis will never have the same plight. Israel cannot possibly put an end to Hamas given what the Gaza people have experienced. Instead they've only made more enemies with their unapologetic show of might.
ked and have little space or resources. They can't go home to a comfortable house to get better; they'll still be living in a wrecked war zone like refugees. I can only imagine the utter difficulties these people will face. Israelis will never have the same plight. Israel cannot possibly put an end to Hamas given what the Gaza people have experienced. Instead they've only made more enemies with their unapologetic show of might. Silent1 said:
Dropping half ton bombs in retaliation for a firework you successfully blew out of the sky or landed in an unpopulated area is unlikely to win over anyone apart from the fanatical Israelis. I say this with personal experience of the situation.
I am sure if somebody fired one of these rockets at you, you would not be calling it a firework.the only reason they are doing little in the way of casualties is because of Israel's defences against them, that has cost them billions.
you only have to look at the riots in the west bank, are those deaths cause by Israel too?
and lets be clear about this, why did the IDF have to start their current operations? did they just wake up one morning and think, let's go and kill a few palestinians?
Also, the blockade, ask yourself the question, why was it started?
yes, that's right, to limit the activities of Hamas in bringing weapons in and doing raids into israel.
As others have pointed out, whilst 800 deaths is tragic, there are more killed every day in other conflicts not so far away, but I don;t see you bleating on about them?
How many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?
Scuffers said:
Silent1 said:
Dropping half ton bombs in retaliation for a firework you successfully blew out of the sky or landed in an unpopulated area is unlikely to win over anyone apart from the fanatical Israelis. I say this with personal experience of the situation.
I am sure if somebody fired one of these rockets at you, you would not be calling it a firework.the only reason they are doing little in the way of casualties is because of Israel's defences against them, that has cost them billions.
you only have to look at the riots in the west bank, are those deaths cause by Israel too?
and lets be clear about this, why did the IDF have to start their current operations? did they just wake up one morning and think, let's go and kill a few palestinians?
Also, the blockade, ask yourself the question, why was it started?
yes, that's right, to limit the activities of Hamas in bringing weapons in and doing raids into israel.
As others have pointed out, whilst 800 deaths is tragic, there are more killed every day in other conflicts not so far away, but I don;t see you bleating on about them?
How many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?
- boys playing footy on the beach - why bomb them so many times? If the first missile was a mistake, why the followups?
- notice given to people to bomb the UN shelter, but hamas stops them leaving. Why bomb them? Teach them a lesson for being hostages to hamas?
Disproportionate.
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