Israeli

[Pappa Lurve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

1) check any report - it was widely reported at the time.

2) Um, Eygpt response? Rockets every day for years? Any other points?

3) Check your IRA history. Coded warning phoned it etc simply as they rather noticed that killing civilians was not worth it.

And again, would you care to respond to my points? And I am curious how you are able to state so much about conditions in Gaza and WB.Been there recently? Or indeed, ever? Seen it with your own eyes? And again, for the hard of reading _ Care to respond to the Egypt issue on the cease fire, you know the one, backed by Egypt, the Arab League and turned down by Hamas until Israel ends the blockade and opens the border crossing, the one into Egypt, on Egyptian land, controlled by Egypt, in no way connected to Israel and explain how Israel can possibly comply with that. I'm sure you know the geography and layout there, why that point itself is of particular relevance and why the Egyptians will not open it. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain those tiny points.

[s1962a]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

This is what I find puzzling. Why does Israel - a democratic country - want to be compared against Hamas or Isis, or any of these type of organisations??

[s1962a]

Guam said:

s1962a said:

Explain the following, since you seem to to know so much

- boys playing footy on the beach - why bomb them so many times? If the first missile was a mistake, why the followups?

- notice given to people to bomb the UN shelter, but hamas stops them leaving. Why bomb them? Teach them a lesson for being hostages to hamas?

Disproportionate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

[trashbat]

Pappa Lurve said:

3) Check your IRA history. Coded warning phoned it etc simply as they rather noticed that killing civilians was not worth it.

I don't think there's any comparison between the IRA and the Israeli situation, so it's not a point worth labouring, but you're applying a peculiarly revisionist view to this bit of history. As you say yourself, the IRA eventually came around to the realisation that civilian deaths didn't help their cause, and switched tactic. Obviously this means that before that came about, it wasn't some carefully targeted operation. Overall they killed only marginally fewer civilians than state agents.

[Mrr T]

Welshbeef said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Surely this option is better than what we have seen for the last 30-40 years of suffering and death on both sides.

I do some times wonder about whether some of the posters on here think through an idea before posting.

Lets be clear whether or not Israel accepts UN control on the crossing into Gaza.

No UN nation, certainly those who have the capacity to mange such a crossing, will commit troops to try to operate a border where one side is controlled by a terrorist organisation who might prefer to blow up some Jews but would also happily blow up some western solders if the opportunity came along.

[s1962a]

Mrr T said:

Welshbeef said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Surely this option is better than what we have seen for the last 30-40 years of suffering and death on both sides.

I do some times wonder about whether some of the posters on here think through an idea before posting.

Lets be clear whether or not Israel accepts UN control on the crossing into Gaza.

No UN nation, certainly those who have the capacity to mange such a crossing, will commit troops to try to operate a border where one side is controlled by a terrorist organisation who might prefer to blow up some Jews but would also happily blow up some western solders if the opportunity came along.

Why does Israel need to 'allow' anything? Does Gaza belong to it?

[s1962a]

Guam said:

s1962a said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

Yes and what does that have to do with the question regarding the numbers of rounds fired?

I was referring to incidents that might be investigated as War Crimes.

[Silent1]

Scuffers said:

I am sure if somebody fired one of these rockets at you, you would not be calling it a firework.

the only reason they are doing little in the way of casualties is because of Israel's defences against them, that has cost them billions.

you only have to look at the riots in the west bank, are those deaths cause by Israel too?

and lets be clear about this, why did the IDF have to start their current operations? did they just wake up one morning and think, let's go and kill a few palestinians?

Also, the blockade, ask yourself the question, why was it started?

yes, that's right, to limit the activities of Hamas in bringing weapons in and doing raids into israel.

As others have pointed out, whilst 800 deaths is tragic, there are more killed every day in other conflicts not so far away, but I don;t see you bleating on about them?

How many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?

I'll reply later with what I can but trust me when I say I'm far closer to this than you might think, my opinion is based on what I see and yes I am happy to call them fireworks, draw from that what you want, a very high percentage of the missiles are no more dangerous than a fragmentation grenade, certainly not a building leveller like the materiel being returned.

[s1962a]

Guam said:

s1962a said:

I was referring to incidents that might be investigated as War Crimes.

So nothing to do with the numbers of rounds fired then?

ETA another term you may wish to look up

Bracketing, a method for determining range by firing artillery shells both beyond and short of a target

You seem to know a lot more about this incident than the Israeli's are detailing in public. Interesting.

Any comments on why the UN shelter was bombed when hundreds of people were in there? They had been given 24 hours notice and were apparently not allowed to leave by hamas - so why bomb them?

[The Don of Croy]

Interesting comment piece by the Torygraph's resident lefty;

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100281...

- with a view on 'proportionality'.

Watching the BBC news last night the chief Hamas political spokesman declared outright that it was 'Israeli lies' that rockets were hidden in schools, even when the BBC pointed out it was the UN itself that discovered them and issued a condemnatory statement (20 rockets no less).

Apparently the UN is also stating that Hamas were lobbing ordnance around in the area of yesterday's school outrage. The TV coverage was remarkably slim with only a blood stain on a desk shown - no blown apart walls or flame/smoke damage...

So why does this garner the top spot in all BBC coverage on Thursday? Airliner with 50+ Frenchies lost over Mali - third or fourth story. Train hits bus on level crossing in India - more than 18 school children dead - not mentioned. Syria - no news. Libya, Tunisia, Iraq, Ukraine - no news (but all ongoing military / terrorist actions).

[Pappa Lurve]

trashbat said:

Pappa Lurve said:

3) Check your IRA history. Coded warning phoned it etc simply as they rather noticed that killing civilians was not worth it.

I don't think there's any comparison between the IRA and the Israeli situation, so it's not a point worth labouring, but you're applying a peculiarly revisionist view to this bit of history. As you say yourself, the IRA eventually came around to the realisation that civilian deaths didn't help their cause, and switched tactic. Obviously this means that before that came about, it wasn't some carefully targeted operation. Overall they killed only marginally fewer civilians than state agents.

Trashbat - I honestly can;t recall who over all these pages has made what comments. It is a comparison that has been made. I have no idea exact numbers of civvies who died at the hands of the various terror groups and indeed the security forces although while I am certain I could find it online I imagine you are probably right about equivalency. I am certainly no expert on Irish history.

Personally though, regardless of "side", any civilian death is of course not only a tragedy for them and their immediate circle but also, regardless of the rights and wrongs, only make the search for a long term peace that little bit harder. I imagine and hope that at least that much we all agree on!

[audidoody]

I've given up with the BBC. The last straw for me was the idiot Maitless woman on Newsnight accusing Israel of not playing fair because it had 'Iron Dome" and the other side didn't. Ye Gods.

Well Emily, in Afghanistan the British army had Apache helicopters and Hellfire missiles against the Taliban's AK47's and RPG's. Didn't stop us blowing the st out of x number of Afghan civilians by mistake. Never heard you bleat then.

[audidoody]

>Any comments on why the UN shelter was bombed when hundreds of people were in there? They had been given 24 hours notice and were >apparently not allowed to leave by hamas - so why bomb them?




The only real damage Hamas can cause Israel is through generating global condemnation and hatred of Israel to force a limited settlement of Hamas's aims. In this respect Hamas is playing a PR blinder - ensuring that munitions are kept within civilian installations and that Hamas fighters are engaging Israeli ground troops with rifle and RPG fire from civilian houses, hospitals, schools etc - with the obvious outcome.

Hamas is really not bothered about 600 or so 'martyrs'.

[s1962a]

audidoody said:

>Any comments on why the UN shelter was bombed when hundreds of people were in there? They had been given 24 hours notice and were >apparently not allowed to leave by hamas - so why bomb them?




The only real damage Hamas can cause Israel is through generating global condemnation and hatred of Israel to force a limited settlement of Hamas's aims. In this respect Hamas is playing a PR blinder - ensuring that munitions are kept within civilian installations and that Hamas fighters are engaging Israeli ground troops with rifle and RPG fire from civilian houses, hospitals, schools etc - with the obvious outcome.

Hamas is really not bothered about 600 or so 'martyrs'.

Yes, agreed. Hamas has been labelled a terrorist organisation.

So, the innocent people and children got bombed why?

[JagLover]

audidoody said:

>Any comments on why the UN shelter was bombed when hundreds of people were in there? They had been given 24 hours notice and were >apparently not allowed to leave by hamas - so why bomb them?




The only real damage Hamas can cause Israel is through generating global condemnation and hatred of Israel to force a limited settlement of Hamas's aims. In this respect Hamas is playing a PR blinder - ensuring that munitions are kept within civilian installations and that Hamas fighters are engaging Israeli ground troops with rifle and RPG fire from civilian houses, hospitals, schools etc - with the obvious outcome.

Hamas is really not bothered about 600 or so 'martyrs'.

The Arabs have always been far better at the Propaganda war than the sort of war that involves fighting Israel on the ground. This is why the Palestinians are the only group to have hereditary refugee status.

[Countdown]

supersingle said:

Fatah have a unity deal with Hamas. Israel don't deal with terrorists, nor should they.
Quotes re-embeded for clarity.

This was the excuse used by Bibi for not negotiating with Fatah.

When Fatah didn't have the unity agreement Bibi said he wouldn't negotiate because Fatah didn't speak for ALL the Palestinian people.

Netanyahu will continue to find excuses for not negotiating. When he's close to running out of excuses he simply announces more Settlement building, knowing that this will bring any "peace negotiations" crashing to a halt.

[trashbat]

And that brings us back to Northern Ireland, a faintly decent comparison this time. No negotiation with terrorists! Unless you want a reasonably lasting peace, anyway.

[Scuffers]

s1962a said:

Yes, agreed. Hamas has been labelled a terrorist organisation.

So, the innocent people and children got bombed why?

Out of.interest, do we actually have evidence that it was idf that bombed this school?

So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.

In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?

[JuniorD]

Scuffers said:

As others have pointed out, whilst 800 deaths is tragic, there are more killed every day in other conflicts not so far away, but I don;t see you bleating on about them?

How many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?

This is such a horse st argument.

Yeah let's not talk about anything if there's something worse elsewhere.

The reason Israel is under such sharp focus is it's because its practically on our doorstep in Europe. Because it's a modern first world country that some would argue is democratic and not some despot banana republic run by backward barbarians. It's because Israelis look like us and talk like us and we've known of the plight and history of the Jewish people through the centuries. Yet, perplexingly and disturbingly the Israeli leadership, the IDF and a large proportion (but not all) of the poplulation manage to act as absolute spoilt brat s most of the time.

[s1962a]

Scuffers said:

s1962a said:

Yes, agreed. Hamas has been labelled a terrorist organisation.

So, the innocent people and children got bombed why?

Out of.interest, do we actually have evidence that it was idf that bombed this school?

So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.

In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?

This is an interesting viewpoint. Does it make a difference to the outcome which side did it? Lets use hypothetical viewpoints:-

1) Hamas bombed the school - this is a deplorable act, and deserves an international investigation to get to the bottom of it and work out what happened and why so many innocent people/children got killed

2) IDF bombed the school - this is a deplorable act, and deserves an international investigation to get to the bottom of it and work out what happened and why so many innocent people/children got killed