Discussion
JuniorD said:
This is such a horse s
t argument.
Yeah let's not talk about anything if there's something worse elsewhere.
The reason Israel is under such sharp focus is it's because its practically on our doorstep in Europe. Because it's a modern first world country that some would argue is democratic and not some despot banana republic run by backward barbarians. It's because Israelis look like us and talk like us and we've known of the plight and history of the Jewish people through the centuries. Yet, perplexingly and disturbingly the Israeli leadership, the IDF and a large proportion (but not all) of the poplulation manage to act as absolute spoilt brats most of the time.
But why no similar focus at the time on the Sebian civilians killed in the Nato bombing campaign? t argument.Yeah let's not talk about anything if there's something worse elsewhere.
The reason Israel is under such sharp focus is it's because its practically on our doorstep in Europe. Because it's a modern first world country that some would argue is democratic and not some despot banana republic run by backward barbarians. It's because Israelis look like us and talk like us and we've known of the plight and history of the Jewish people through the centuries. Yet, perplexingly and disturbingly the Israeli leadership, the IDF and a large proportion (but not all) of the poplulation manage to act as absolute spoilt brat
s most of the time. JuniorD said:
Scuffers said:
As others have pointed out, whilst 800 deaths is tragic, there are more killed every day in other conflicts not so far away, but I don;t see you bleating on about them?
How many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?
This is such a horse sHow many people have the ISIS nutters killed so far? or is that OK cause it's not Jews doing the killing?
t argument.Yeah let's not talk about anything if there's something worse elsewhere.
The reason Israel is under such sharp focus is it's because its practically on our doorstep in Europe. Because it's a modern first world country that some would argue is democratic and not some despot banana republic run by backward barbarians. It's because Israelis look like us and talk like us and we've known of the plight and history of the Jewish people through the centuries. Yet, perplexingly and disturbingly the Israeli leadership, the IDF and a large proportion (but not all) of the poplulation manage to act as absolute spoilt brat
s most of the time. Pappa Lurve said:
Countdown - you state ANOTHER JEWISH PERSON. That means clearly according to you I am Jewish. Kindly explain to me where you glean this from and what the relevance is? It also rather leads to the view you think you understand the debate internally to the Jewish community, as distinct from the Israeli one, perhaps you do. Perhaps not.
Past discussions with you led me to believe you were Jewish. If I’m wrong then please feel free to correct me. The reason I stated “another jewish person” is because (I think) there are a large number of jewish people worldwide who disagree with Israel’s actions and its territorial ambitions. However they tend to be labelled as "self hating jews" by Zionists who want to inextricably link Judaism and Zionism.Pappa Lurve said:
Then please comment on the Egypt issue.
Egypt is a military dictatorship. We really shouldn’t be looking at their actions to justify what the Israelis are doing. That aside, the dictatorship is worried about being overthrown (again) by the Muslim Brotherhood (who have links with Hamas). That is why they have placed restrictions on Gaza. These aren’t the actions of a democratic Govt. Do you think the Israeli Govt has the same legitimacy as the Egyptian one?Pappa Lurve said:
Regarding the settlements being easier to defend - I assume you are experienced in military matters and understand the exact strategic situation on the ground at the time? If not, perhaps you could evidence this.
No I’m not. My comments are based on what was said by Sharon and various Israeli military spokesmen at the time.The links below might clarify.http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
Pappa Lurve said:
Someone mentioned about roads in WB - I know there are restricted roads there. I stated Israel. I neither like, agree with or condone those roads which is neither here nor there, considering they are not in the country I mentioned. And as a response to all the other points I made....um... anything?!
“Neither here nor there”? Israeli control of the WB, the continuing increase in Settlements along with the associated military infrastructure and restrictions on Palestinian movement are fundamental issues underlying the conflict. You are correct that they are not in the Country mentioned. They are being built by the Israeli Govt in occupied territory, as part of their intention to annexe the West Bank. If Israel genuinely wanted peace it would address this issue.Scuffers said:
Out of.interest, do we actually have evidence that it was idf that bombed this school?
So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.
In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?
There have been many comments on here about media bias. So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.
In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?
Perhaps the worst aspect of media bias is that few in the media comment on the reporting restrictions which are imposed on them by those in control in Gaza.
Journalist do not just run around Gaza taking pictures and reporting what they see.
Their movements are tightly controlled by Hamas.
The story line is what they where told by Hamas. The pictures show what the journalist was allowed to see and take pictures off.
Mrr T said:
Scuffers said:
Out of.interest, do we actually have evidence that it was idf that bombed this school?
So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.
In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?
There have been many comments on here about media bias. So far, none of the pictures show the kind of damage from shelling.
In other areas it's pretty clear where a building has bred shelled, yet all I have seen is a blood stained bit if floor with no visable damage?
Perhaps the worst aspect of media bias is that few in the media comment on the reporting restrictions which are imposed on them by those in control in Gaza.
Journalist do not just run around Gaza taking pictures and reporting what they see.
Their movements are tightly controlled by Hamas.
The story line is what they where told by Hamas. The pictures show what the journalist was allowed to see and take pictures off.
s1962a said:
Say these 15 innocent people and children were indeed shelled and killed by Hamas, would you then condemn it?
Yes.However, I am not sure even Hamas would go to the level of deliberately killing there own side.
Another option was a Hamas missile exposed on launch or landed in Gaza rather than Israel. Their missile have virtually no guidance systems.
Mrr T said:
s1962a said:
Say these 15 innocent people and children were indeed shelled and killed by Hamas, would you then condemn it?
Yes.However, I am not sure even Hamas would go to the level of deliberately killing there own side.
Another option was a Hamas missile exposed on launch or landed in Gaza rather than Israel. Their missile have virtually no guidance systems.
This article suggests that there was initial confusion, but that was cleared up by the IDF that it was conducted by them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israe...
JagLover said:
Hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians have died in most recent conflicts. It is how the media chooses to report on them that is key.
If the dead civilians are Serbs, or Tamils, their passing is almost entirely unremarked.
Ah, another display of whataboutism from Scuffers school of PR. If you are so concerned about Serbian and Tamils death, did you start thread about them, or are you just very cynically using them to deflect attention. If the dead civilians are Serbs, or Tamils, their passing is almost entirely unremarked.
Shameful.
audidoody said:
The only real damage Hamas can cause Israel is through generating global condemnation and hatred of Israel to force a limited settlement of Hamas's aims. In this respect Hamas is playing a PR blinder - ensuring that munitions are kept within civilian installations and that Hamas fighters are engaging Israeli ground troops with rifle and RPG fire from civilian houses, hospitals, schools etc - with the obvious outcome.
Hamas is really not bothered about 600 or so 'martyrs'.
Of course, that lead that tard Regev to say that, and I do love the wording; 'It's not clear that we've hit the UN school'. Of course it's not clear, if you are blind, deaf, stupid, all of the above or so indoctrinated with 'right of self-defense' mantra, that Palestinians casualties are irrelevant.Hamas is really not bothered about 600 or so 'martyrs'.
You are right, it's Hamas's work that Israel's getting condemned. That racist bint from Knesset advocating killing all Palestinian mothers in order to prevent birth of 'snakes' is what? A good PR? But it's all terrorist fault.
s1962a said:
Mrr T said:
s1962a said:
Say these 15 innocent people and children were indeed shelled and killed by Hamas, would you then condemn it?
Yes.However, I am not sure even Hamas would go to the level of deliberately killing there own side.
Another option was a Hamas missile exposed on launch or landed in Gaza rather than Israel. Their missile have virtually no guidance systems.
This article suggests that there was initial confusion, but that was cleared up by the IDF that it was conducted by them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israe...
Pappa Lurve said:
Ok, I bowed out ages ago but frankly the utter lack of understanding here is stunning.
Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
I’m sorry Papa but you are no more objective than anyone else regarding this. I don’t claim to be unbiased (as so many here do) but I can answer a number of your points.Let me first explain why I have a little understanding. I hold a degree in International Relations where I specialised in the ME. I have lived in Tel Aviv AND spent considerable time in the occupied territories. I once owned a company which employed predominantly Palestinians (programmers mainly, average earning were just over double the national average for Israel.
So,lets start with the comparisons the IRA - Utter rubbish. The IRA DID NOT focus on civilians, it did not chuck literally thousands of rockets every year into populated area. I don't just mean right now, I mean year on year on year. Israeli deaths are low in part because by law ever building broadly requires a bomb shelter and they have phenomenal civilian defence. But I assure you living in a city where for years rockets land is not fun but I do accept that from a PR perspective, building bomb shelters is a bad move, better to let civilians die as it looks better for people too stupid to understand the concept of civilian protection.
Now, lets move on to the famous blockade.... Hamas has said it will accept no ceasefire without a lifting of the blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. So how on earth ios attacking Israel going to remove a blockade enforced more stringently by Egypt? Orhow about the demand that Eygpt opens the boarder? Israel has control over that do they?! But hey, dont let little facts like the reality of the blockade count.
OK, onto settlements. Lets be clear. Israel, under Sharon, and with the use of the military, closed the settlements in Gaza bout 9 years ago. Moaning they are still there is nuts. THEY ARE NOT. Thats not up for debate. Its a simple fact. They remain in both the WB and around some parts of Jerusalem (one could argue part of Jerusalem is in the West Bank so may be the same thing on one level. So saying they are part of this is simply factually wrong. Want more proof? OK, Abbas himself, the only elected leader (Hamas voided elections and refused to re-run) has been strong in his condemnation, in the last week, of Hamas despite being in a semi coalition government with them. Smart chap is Abbas, he has a stronger economy, more freedom, better educaation, better everything beccuase he does not try to wipe out Isreal and represents his people. Hamas are in power by force, not democracy.
Next, Israel as a democracy. I have read things on here like Israeli Arabs don't have rights, don't have votes, are not allowed in certain roads etc. Interesting stuff. Utterly wrong. Again, I don;t care whaat has been written, I lived there. I employed Arabs, Jews, Christians, Citizens, Immigrants, Palestinians etc. Many lost their jobs because Hamas refused to let them into Israel which made coming to work a bit tough.
Israel is a long way from perfect but to intimate that somehow it can negotiate with Hamas when Hamas have stated the basic position requires promises Israel cannot give (like access to Eygpt!) is nuts.
Then we have the Strip being refered to as a concentration camp. I have been there, many times. It is not heaven on earth but actually, medical care, water and power for example (provided and paid for by Israel, even right now) are all reliable. In fact, it is easy to find report affter report that Hamas leaders have sent kids to Israel for medical treatment, supplied free and sent back. WOuld make a great hostage for evil Israel....
The PPalestinians in Gaza ahave a terrible deal, but the role of Egypt is utterly ignored because of the inconvenient truth. As are 12,000 missiles in 6 months, or the tiny fact that Abbas himself with a strong mandate was banned from Gazza by Hamas for being a traitor. Yet he has forged the very beginnings of a solution, tony but vital steps on both sides.
And to those who bang the drum of settlements.... I repeat... in Gaza there are NONE. Blockade - Hamas themselves have stated it needs to be lifted by Egypt... How on earth Israel is supposed to do this is a mystery to anyone.
SO while i respect we all have different views, perhaps a little understanding of the reality, may help to forge a more balanced discussion, but frankly, I doubt it.
It matters not a jot if someone is a civilian on either side, any death is obviously terrible but to point to the fact that Israel protects it population with shelters, warnings and Iron Dome as proof they are all evil is simply utterly flawed logic.
And perhaps one of the reasons Israel could not care less about public opinion is an opinion based on zero understanding is irrelevant to them and rightly so.
I know you would now prefer to leave out the IRA analogy, but it hasn’t run its course.
At certain points throughout the troubles militant Republicans (because it’s not just the IRA) have very much targeted civilians. Over 1000 civilians were killed by militant Republicans [MR] during the troubles these killings include civilian bombings (as in Birmingham, Manchester and Omagh, as well as the Brighton Bombing a few hundred yards up the road from me).
But that was only the recorded deaths, thousands more died indirectly at their hands. Although the ostensible stance of MR was anti-drugs in nationalist areas (kneecappings and kangaroo death sentences for those who didn’t obey), they used drugs and arms trading to finance their activities across the world.
Since the early 1970’s thousands more have died due to MR drug dealing and rackets related to drug dealing. Nowadays MR “licenses” approved drug dealers in Dublin and elsewhere – ie runs protection rackets. MR (alongside militant Protestantism) has treated the civilian population of NI and in other countries
badly – just like Hamas. It just did it, and continues to do it, in a different manner.
When you talk about the blockade conducted by Israel and Egypt, you talk as if the two countries act in a completely independent fashion. You know this isn’t true. Ever since the 79 Egypt-Israel peace treaty the two counties have acted like hand in glove. Israeli Prime Ministers have even stated that Egypt is Israel’s closes ally. This is because both sides reap enormous financial benefits from the treaty, mainly in funding from the US. The significance of this treaty is such that when the Moslem Brotherhood threatened to tear it up they were summarily overthrown (with US support). Egypt doesn’t want another war and it doesn’t even wipe its bum without consulting Israel first – it’s happy to enforce the blockade to keep its ally happy. Only if Israel agrees will Egypt remove the blockade. Therefore, Israel can negotiate with Hamas regarding the blockade.
Nobody is complaining about settlements in Gaza, they’re saying that the settlements on the WB inflame the situation.
As you state, Hamas is in power in Gaza because of force, they weren’t elected. Unfortunately, many here believe that the Palestinians voted for Hamas to run Gaza, I’m glad you’ve cleared that up. I don't think anyone has any illusions as to Hamas being terrorists who are using the people of Gaza. But if Israel weren't so implacable, perhaps some progress could be made: John Major decided to hold secret talks with the IRA, why not Israel and Hamas? (Yes, I realise we wouldn't know about it, but I'm pretty certain it isn't happening now).
Israel’s supplying water, electricity and drugs to Gaza is on the surface generous. However, when you take into account that it was Israel who destroyed the main power plant in Gaza in 2006 in Operation “Summer Rain.” it changes the perspective somewhat. Israel has also pumped out Gaza’s main aquifer causing the local water supply to become salinated. Israel now controls fresh water into Gaza and fresh water was rationed even before the latest crisis. Stop Press, Israel has now bombed the power plant again… Giving Gaza drugs is fine, but if there were no blockade Gaza could get its own drugs.
Telling us that Israel is treating a Hamas leaders little girl is pleading from the specific to the general. I'm sure you learnt about that on your degree, so I won't labour it here.
I think your "objective" view is as biased as mine.
Edited by Mr Snap on Friday 25th July 11:45
Edited by Mr Snap on Friday 25th July 11:48
I'd also introduce this piece as being classic Steyn;
http://www.steynonline.com/6485/the-man-who-never-...
- his view of the UN body that administers aid to the Palestinians is particularly apt; four generations of UN 'care' - unprecendented anywhere on earth.
The Israelis are not going to win this PR war - the beeb will see to that - but I don't think they care...
http://www.steynonline.com/6485/the-man-who-never-...
- his view of the UN body that administers aid to the Palestinians is particularly apt; four generations of UN 'care' - unprecendented anywhere on earth.
The Israelis are not going to win this PR war - the beeb will see to that - but I don't think they care...
MarkSteyn said:
"The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews," wrote America's great longshoreman philosopher Eric Hoffer after the 1967 war. "Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem ... But everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab ... Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world."
Thus, the massive population displacements in Europe at the end of the Second World War are forever, but those in Palestine a mere three years later must be corrected and reversed. On the Continent, losing wars comes with a territorial price: The Germans aren't going to be back in Danzig any time soon. But, in the Middle East, no matter how often the Arabs attack Israel and lose, their claims to their lost territory manage to be both inviolable but endlessly transferable.
Very true Thus, the massive population displacements in Europe at the end of the Second World War are forever, but those in Palestine a mere three years later must be corrected and reversed. On the Continent, losing wars comes with a territorial price: The Germans aren't going to be back in Danzig any time soon. But, in the Middle East, no matter how often the Arabs attack Israel and lose, their claims to their lost territory manage to be both inviolable but endlessly transferable.
s1962a said:
It's good you condemn this attack, and the killing of these innocent people, regardless of who did it.
This article suggests that there was initial confusion, but that was cleared up by the IDF that it was conducted by them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israe...
I said I would condemn Hamas because they have caused this latest round of killing by continuing to lob missiles into Israel. This article suggests that there was initial confusion, but that was cleared up by the IDF that it was conducted by them.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israe...
I might condemn Israel but for that I would need to know much more about the facts. Unfortunately, in war facts are hard to gather.
The Guardian article leaves more questions than answers.
The building was in an area combat was taking place but how close to it?
The IDF seem to have admitted to firing near the building but not actually hitting that building. Its quite possible they did hit it and do not know. In war you do not know where all the ordnance lands.
Its seems Hamas stopped those in the building leaving when the Iraeli warning was received its clear Hamas combatants where in or around the building
It seems the UN where trying to organise a mutually agreeable time to leave I assume this would involve communicating with both sides. No comments about who they where speaking to and what was actually said by both sides.
Also it says permission to leave was never granted. I assume this is down to Hamas since the Israeli had given warning of the attach.
There seems to have been lots of blood in the building which means the building is still in good enough condition for the journalist to enter it. The killed and injured where not shot so this would have to have been some sort of explosive, a missile, a shell, or possibly a mortar. I assume it could not have been an Israeli grenade as there are no indications Israeli solders where that close. Explosive devises tend to cause lots of damage to buildings. So how come we have lots of casualties but little damage.
league67 said:
Of course, that lead that tard Regev to say that, and I do love the wording; 'It's not clear that we've hit the UN school'. Of course it's not clear, if you are blind, deaf, stupid, all of the above or so indoctrinated with 'right of self-defense' mantra, that Palestinians casualties are irrelevant.
You are right, it's Hamas's work that Israel's getting condemned. That racist bint from Knesset advocating killing all Palestinian mothers in order to prevent birth of 'snakes' is what? A good PR? But it's all terrorist fault.
If you label the spokesmen of elected governments "'tards" you're not doing much to be taken seriously. Regev also stated that fire was being directed at Israeli forces from the school. If you think Regev is a 'tard' what is your opinion of Khaled Meshaal who dismissed UN claims that rockets were being stored in civilian areas as "lies".You are right, it's Hamas's work that Israel's getting condemned. That racist bint from Knesset advocating killing all Palestinian mothers in order to prevent birth of 'snakes' is what? A good PR? But it's all terrorist fault.
The comments of Ayelet Shaked were shocking to me. .However in the interests of complete accuracy she was referring to the Mothers of "enemy soldiers" - not all Palestinians. Still an appalling thing to say.
Here's what one Israeli said of her:
"I can no longer stand by, while Israeli politicians like Ayelet Shaked condone the deaths of innocent Palestinian women and children".
She is young. She is pretty. She is a university graduate and a computer engineer. She is also an Israeli Parliamentarian - and the reason why I am on the brink of burning my Israeli passport. Because behind that wide-eyed innocent face lurks the Angel of Death".
She says she has been misquoted and misrepresented here:
http://tinyurl.com/oye2x3u
You decide.
Edited by audidoody on Friday 25th July 12:34
JagLover said:
MarkSteyn said:
"The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews," wrote America's great longshoreman philosopher Eric Hoffer after the 1967 war. "Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem ... But everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab ... Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world."
Thus, the massive population displacements in Europe at the end of the Second World War are forever, but those in Palestine a mere three years later must be corrected and reversed. On the Continent, losing wars comes with a territorial price: The Germans aren't going to be back in Danzig any time soon. But, in the Middle East, no matter how often the Arabs attack Israel and lose, their claims to their lost territory manage to be both inviolable but endlessly transferable.
Very true Thus, the massive population displacements in Europe at the end of the Second World War are forever, but those in Palestine a mere three years later must be corrected and reversed. On the Continent, losing wars comes with a territorial price: The Germans aren't going to be back in Danzig any time soon. But, in the Middle East, no matter how often the Arabs attack Israel and lose, their claims to their lost territory manage to be both inviolable but endlessly transferable.
Mr Snap said:
Steyn is a right-wing nut job, in UK politics he'd be somewhere beyond the BNP. A racist, fascist apologist.
As some one whose political believes are similar to Mark Stern. I would point out he is not just a writer but a regular guest and presenter on some of the most popular radio programs in the US.
He was also instrumental in the repeal of Canada's truly oppressive restrictions on free speech and is currently being sued by Michael Mann for criticising his hockey stick graphs.
I can only suggest Mr Snap you must be a left wing nut job who has politics to the left of the socialist workers party and are a Jew hating, Hamas apologist.
Mr Snap said:
Steyn is a right-wing nut job, in UK politics he'd be somewhere beyond the BNP. A racist, fascist apologist.
I'd like to see your evidence to back up those claims...I've only read Steyn's columns, best selling books and his website output, and I'm struggling to identify the racist, fascist apologist parts, or the 'nut-job' moniker.He's right of centre and of Jewish extraction. He makes cogent arguments in a witty and easily read way. That makes him believable, too.
By contrast your description seems to be a knee-jerk reaction without much behind it.
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