Discussion
The Don of Croy said:
Possibly, but he also points out how artfully they 'sell' this helplessness around the world...almost as if, without it, they'd not have a reason to exist.
Speaking of the West Bank for example, do you think the Palestinians there have the environment to be 100% masters of their own destiny? There is nothing that the Israelis have put in the way of this?anonymous said:
[redacted]
No he is querying why of all the forced migrations of the twentieth century they are the only hereditary refugees.If you look at it objectively I doubt they were even one of the 10 biggest forced migrations of that century.
Poles from Ukraine-Around 1 million
Ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechoslovakia etc-12 million
Hindus & Sikhs from Pakistan at partition-6 million
Greeks from Turkey-1.4 million
I could go on. Most of the above couldn't take assets with them either.
What happened in 1948 is a population transfer between the newly created Israel and Arab lands. Those Jews coming to Israel were welcomed and absorbed. In contrast the Arabs placed their compatriots in camps to be used as a propaganda weapon for the future a weapon still useful to this day.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm not sure anyone out there is 100% master of their own destiny...Israel won't be if Tehran gets it's nuclear programme finished, Saudi won't either, the outlook is anything but settled.Do you think Israel should be allowed to defend it's sovereign territory from indiscriminate rocket attacks?
franki68 said:
has british tv shown any of hamas tunnels ? or examples of human shields ? I cant recall any,yet there is plenty of footage around from other countries news sources.
We know they exist/this happens, I've seen reports on this on the BBC, so how does that negate any of the issues raised on this thread?JagLover said:
No he is querying why of all the forced migrations of the twentieth century they are the only hereditary refugees.
If you look at it objectively I doubt they were even one of the 10 biggest forced migrations of that century.
Poles from Ukraine-Around 1 million
Ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechoslovakia etc-12 million
Hindus & Sikhs from Pakistan at partition-6 million
Greeks from Turkey-1.4 million
I could go on. Most of the above couldn't take assets with them either.
What happened in 1948 is a population transfer between the newly created Israel and Arab lands. Those Jews coming to Israel were welcomed and absorbed. In contrast the Arabs placed their compatriots in camps to be used as a propaganda weapon for the future a weapon still useful to this day.
Im not sure how this situation applies to the Palestinians living in the West Bank. They haven't migrated anywhere. They are still living there. What they want is the right of self-determination.If you look at it objectively I doubt they were even one of the 10 biggest forced migrations of that century.
Poles from Ukraine-Around 1 million
Ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechoslovakia etc-12 million
Hindus & Sikhs from Pakistan at partition-6 million
Greeks from Turkey-1.4 million
I could go on. Most of the above couldn't take assets with them either.
What happened in 1948 is a population transfer between the newly created Israel and Arab lands. Those Jews coming to Israel were welcomed and absorbed. In contrast the Arabs placed their compatriots in camps to be used as a propaganda weapon for the future a weapon still useful to this day.
Scuffers said:
2013BRM said:
jumping up and down? that suggests I am upset about something, all I am trying to do is explain why some feel there is an anti Semitic tendency among some here, in fact are you sure you quoted the correct post?
sorry, badly put, it was not a comment on your post so much as the subject....
The Don of Croy said:
I'm not sure anyone out there is 100% master of their own destiny...Israel won't be if Tehran gets it's nuclear programme finished, Saudi won't either, the outlook is anything but settled.
Do you think Israel should be allowed to defend it's sovereign territory from indiscriminate rocket attacks?
Rather than a short term solution of bombing seven bells out of Gaza I would suggest that "defence" would be better achieved by seeking a viable peace agreement.Do you think Israel should be allowed to defend it's sovereign territory from indiscriminate rocket attacks?
Based on the words and actions of the Israeli Govt I don't believe they think they need or want a peace agreement. Or to put it another way, their definition of peace is expecting total unconditional surrender and acceptance of being second-class citizens from the Palestinians
Countdown said:
Rather than a short term solution of bombing seven bells out of Gaza I would suggest that "defence" would be better achieved by seeking a viable peace agreement.
Based on the words and actions of the Israeli Govt I don't believe they think they need or want a peace agreement. Or to put it another way, their definition of peace is expecting total unconditional surrender and acceptance of being second-class citizens from the Palestinians
Whilst I agree that Israel does treat the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?Based on the words and actions of the Israeli Govt I don't believe they think they need or want a peace agreement. Or to put it another way, their definition of peace is expecting total unconditional surrender and acceptance of being second-class citizens from the Palestinians
Countdown said:
Based on the words and actions of the Israeli Govt I don't believe they think they need or want a peace agreement. Or to put it another way, their definition of peace is expecting total unconditional surrender and acceptance of being second-class citizens from the Palestinians
Where as the Hamas war aims are:a) For everyone to live in peace and prosperity with freedom of speech and religion or
b) complete destruction of Israel the creation of an Islamic state and the death or forceable conversion of every Jew to Islam
Please delete as applicable.
Mrr T said:
Mr Snap said:
Steyn is a right-wing nut job, in UK politics he'd be somewhere beyond the BNP. A racist, fascist apologist.
As some one whose political believes are similar to Mark Stern. I would point out he is not just a writer but a regular guest and presenter on some of the most popular radio programs in the US.
He was also instrumental in the repeal of Canada's truly oppressive restrictions on free speech and is currently being sued by Michael Mann for criticising his hockey stick graphs.
I can only suggest Mr Snap you must be a left wing nut job who has politics to the left of the socialist workers party and are a Jew hating, Hamas apologist.
What do you mean he's "not just a writer but a regular guest etc etc"? The very reason he's on US radio is because he's a right-wing nut-job, ready to say something objectionable - anytime, anywhere - for a fat fee. The US airwaves are thick with similar right-wing nut-jobs. It merely proves that lots of people in the US like right-wing nut-jobs, it doesn't make his opinions right.
So you agree with STEYN that Europe is about to become "Eurabia" eh?
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
Now, I'm not sure if you've read many books - apart from STEYN's and the illustrated comics authored by Simon Dunstan, that you so love - but this sort of stuff has been seen before. In the past, the global conspiracy wasn't down to the Moslems, it was down to Jews. In the early 1900's another right-wing nut-job pretended to find a secret book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". "The Protocols" purported to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It was printed everywhere and it became one of Adolph Hitler's primary justifications for the holocaust and hundreds of smaller pogroms. Hundreds of thousands of copies were printed and distributed in the US by Henry Ford alone. Not a word of it was true but it polluted global politics and you could even argue it led, indirectly, to the existence of the state of Israel.
Steyn's "Eurabia" is a new gloss on an old story except this time it's not Jews - they are the heroes this time - it's the Moslems. There is no Moslem plot to rule the world within 30 years (he reckons it'll happen in the US, too. It'll just take longer), but it suits Steyn's purposes to say so. And he makes a mint from saying so. "Eurabia's" underpinnings are as racist as the people who disseminated "The Protocols", it's merely wrapped up in a nicer package. To say you're an admirer is merely to state that you like your racist propaganda to be hardcore. Steyn is a nihilist, ready to tear down everything believing that somehow things will be better afterwards. Well if that's what you want, then you probably have more in common with Hamas than you think - which I don't think you do (think, that is).
You've repeatedly maintained your "objectivity", but each time you refer to a specific source it turns out to be published not by a respected academic but either from a nut-job or from someone who is demonstrably biased. I've read Steyn but I've also read the people who have taken his drek to pieces. You don't, you merely seek out information that justifies your own point of view. Unfortunately your point of view is hopelessly wrong and each time you add to this thread it becomes more apparent.
Countdown said:
Rather than a short term solution of bombing seven bells out of Gaza I would suggest that "defence" would be better achieved by seeking a viable peace agreement.
Yes. If a gunman grabs your kid as a shield when confronted by a police marksman, you don't expect the police officer to kill your kid immediately and tell you it was the gunman's fault. You would rightly expect negotiation, or a 'hit' so accurate as to to safely take out only the gunman.The terrorists are murderers, but so are the people of Israel, who apparently will only be satisfied when their heavily armed soldiers have murderered every child in Gaza. Almost biblical.
Mr Snap said:
Perhaps you mean Mark S T E Y N. Apparently you know his works but you have trouble remembering his name, even when it's right in front of you..
What do you mean he's "not just a writer but a regular guest etc etc"? The very reason he's on US radio is because he's a right-wing nut-job, ready to say something objectionable - anytime, anywhere - for a fat fee. The US airwaves are thick with similar right-wing nut-jobs. It merely proves that lots of people in the US like right-wing nut-jobs, it doesn't make his opinions right.
So you agree with STEYN that Europe is about to become "Eurabia" eh?
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
Now, I'm not sure if you've read many books - apart from STEYN's and the illustrated comics authored by Simon Dunstan, that you so love - but this sort of stuff has been seen before. In the past, the global conspiracy wasn't down to the Moslems, it was down to Jews. In the early 1900's another right-wing nut-job pretended to find a secret book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". "The Protocols" purported to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It was printed everywhere and it became one of Adolph Hitler's primary justifications for the holocaust and hundreds of smaller pogroms. Hundreds of thousands of copies were printed and distributed in the US by Henry Ford alone. Not a word of it was true but it polluted global politics and you could even argue it led, indirectly, to the existence of the state of Israel.
Steyn's "Eurabia" is a new gloss on an old story except this time it's not Jews - they are the heroes this time - it's the Moslems. There is no Moslem plot to rule the world within 30 years (he reckons it'll happen in the US, too. It'll just take longer), but it suits Steyn's purposes to say so. And he makes a mint from saying so. "Eurabia's" underpinnings are as racist as the people who disseminated "The Protocols", it's merely wrapped up in a nicer package. To say you're an admirer is merely to state that you like your racist propaganda to be hardcore. Steyn is a nihilist, ready to tear down everything believing that somehow things will be better afterwards. Well if that's what you want, then you probably have more in common with Hamas than you think - which I don't think you do (think, that is).
You've repeatedly maintained your "objectivity", but each time you refer to a specific source it turns out to be published not by a respected academic but either from a nut-job or from someone who is demonstrably biased. I've read Steyn but I've also read the people who have taken his drek to pieces. You don't, you merely seek out information that justifies your own point of view. Unfortunately your point of view is hopelessly wrong and each time you add to this thread it becomes more apparent.
You are correct some how I miss spelt Mark Steyn's name.What do you mean he's "not just a writer but a regular guest etc etc"? The very reason he's on US radio is because he's a right-wing nut-job, ready to say something objectionable - anytime, anywhere - for a fat fee. The US airwaves are thick with similar right-wing nut-jobs. It merely proves that lots of people in the US like right-wing nut-jobs, it doesn't make his opinions right.
So you agree with STEYN that Europe is about to become "Eurabia" eh?
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
Now, I'm not sure if you've read many books - apart from STEYN's and the illustrated comics authored by Simon Dunstan, that you so love - but this sort of stuff has been seen before. In the past, the global conspiracy wasn't down to the Moslems, it was down to Jews. In the early 1900's another right-wing nut-job pretended to find a secret book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". "The Protocols" purported to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It was printed everywhere and it became one of Adolph Hitler's primary justifications for the holocaust and hundreds of smaller pogroms. Hundreds of thousands of copies were printed and distributed in the US by Henry Ford alone. Not a word of it was true but it polluted global politics and you could even argue it led, indirectly, to the existence of the state of Israel.
Steyn's "Eurabia" is a new gloss on an old story except this time it's not Jews - they are the heroes this time - it's the Moslems. There is no Moslem plot to rule the world within 30 years (he reckons it'll happen in the US, too. It'll just take longer), but it suits Steyn's purposes to say so. And he makes a mint from saying so. "Eurabia's" underpinnings are as racist as the people who disseminated "The Protocols", it's merely wrapped up in a nicer package. To say you're an admirer is merely to state that you like your racist propaganda to be hardcore. Steyn is a nihilist, ready to tear down everything believing that somehow things will be better afterwards. Well if that's what you want, then you probably have more in common with Hamas than you think - which I don't think you do (think, that is).
You've repeatedly maintained your "objectivity", but each time you refer to a specific source it turns out to be published not by a respected academic but either from a nut-job or from someone who is demonstrably biased. I've read Steyn but I've also read the people who have taken his drek to pieces. You don't, you merely seek out information that justifies your own point of view. Unfortunately your point of view is hopelessly wrong and each time you add to this thread it becomes more apparent.
The rest is incorrect.
I would respond but it would be a waste of time I doubt you have ever listened to anyone other than yourself for a long time.
deadslow said:
Yes. If a gunman grabs your kid as a shield when confronted by a police marksman, you don't expect the police officer to kill your kid immediately and tell you it was the gunman's fault. You would rightly expect negotiation, or a 'hit' so accurate as to to safely take out only the gunman.
Is that really an accurate analogy?How about a gun man grabs your kid and starts to shoot at a group on innocent bystanders. Should the police marksman:
a) shoot the gunman to save the bystanders but risk shooting your child
b) leave the gunman to shoot the bystanders
Your choice
deadslow said:
The terrorists are murderers, but so are the people of Israel, who apparently will only be satisfied when their heavily armed soldiers have murderered every child in Gaza. Almost biblical.
I believe there are about 600,000 children in Gaza. Are you really suggesting Israel is trying to shoot them all?Mrr T said:
You are correct some how I miss spelt Mark Steyn's name.
The rest is incorrect.
I would respond but it would be a waste of time I doubt you have ever listened to anyone other than yourself for a long time.
Excuse me. According to your rules, you're supposed to supply references and citations as to why I'm wrong. This is what you have previously demanded of others (yet have singularly failed to do yourself). The rest is incorrect.
I would respond but it would be a waste of time I doubt you have ever listened to anyone other than yourself for a long time.
The fact that I've followed your contributions over scores of pages indicates that I've listened extremely carefully to what you, and others, have said. For each argument you've made, I've put a counter arguments. This is called debate. What you're actually saying is you're no longer prepared to discuss anything with me because I've failed to agree with you. And, because I keep countering your arguments, you're no longer interested in debating. Someone less charitable might think you're slinking away.
One might say that it's somewhat ironic that when you're defending the Israelis specifically for their refusal to walk away from a fight, it's precisely the form of action you've chosen to take with me. Could it be that walking away from an aggressor is a valid option after all?
Ignore me if you wish. But I think you're making a big mistake. Don't think I won't continue to "listen" to your contributions and take them to tiny pieces, bit by bit. I'd have said that's a bit of an own goal, if you ask me...
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