Discussion
Mrr T said:
deadslow said:
Yes. If a gunman grabs your kid as a shield when confronted by a police marksman, you don't expect the police officer to kill your kid immediately and tell you it was the gunman's fault. You would rightly expect negotiation, or a 'hit' so accurate as to to safely take out only the gunman.
Is that really an accurate analogy?How about a gun man grabs your kid and starts to shoot at a group on innocent bystanders. Should the police marksman:
a) shoot the gunman to save the bystanders but risk shooting your child
b) leave the gunman to shoot the bystanders
Your choice
Mrr T said:
deadslow said:
The terrorists are murderers, but so are the people of Israel, who apparently will only be satisfied when their heavily armed soldiers have murderered every child in Gaza. Almost biblical.
I believe there are about 600,000 children in Gaza. Are you really suggesting Israel is trying to shoot them all?Countdown said:
Pappa Lurve said:
Countdown - you state ANOTHER JEWISH PERSON. That means clearly according to you I am Jewish. Kindly explain to me where you glean this from and what the relevance is? It also rather leads to the view you think you understand the debate internally to the Jewish community, as distinct from the Israeli one, perhaps you do. Perhaps not.
Past discussions with you led me to believe you were Jewish. If I’m wrong then please feel free to correct me. The reason I stated “another jewish person” is because (I think) there are a large number of jewish people worldwide who disagree with Israel’s actions and its territorial ambitions. However they tend to be labelled as "self hating jews" by Zionists who want to inextricably link Judaism and Zionism.CD - STATED BELOW I AM RESPONDING IN CAPS AS I AM RUBBISH AT DOING THE EDITED QUOTES THING. NOT SHOUTY!
YOU SAY ABOVE YOU THINK ETC ABOUT JEWISH VIEWS, POLITICS ETC. THEY ARE UN-REPORTED ANYWHERE I HAVE EVER SEEN IN ANY REAL DEPTH. THERE ARE MANY PERSPECTIVES AND VIEWS RANGING FROM THE COMMON TO THE EXTREME. SAME AS HERE IN THE UK - WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT GEORGE GALLOWAY OR INDEED THE LOVELY MR BLAIR REPRESENTED A FAIR CROSS SECTION? SAME IN THE JEWISH SCENE. HOWEVER, THE JEWISH COMMUNITY DOES NOT VOTE IN ISRAEL AND DOES NOT INFLUENCE ITS POLITICS AS MUCH AS MANY BELIEVE. FRANKLY AND RESPECTFULLY, VERY VERY FEW PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EVEN ZIONIST POLITICS, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ZIONIST, ISRAELIS, JEWS, THEN FACTOR IN THAT JEWS ARE BY AND LARGE A PRETTY OPINIONATED AND DIVERSE GROUP SOCIALLY, POLITICALLY, CULTURALLY, ECONOMICALLY AND GEOGRAPHICALLY. RESPECTFULLY AGAIN, THE CONCEPT OF A SELF HATING JEW IS BY AND LARGE NOT ONLY DEEPLY MISUNDERSTOOD BUT USED IN A BROAD SENSE WHICH IS NOT REMOTELY WHAT IS MEANT BY THE COMMUNITY. THERE ARE JEWS AND NON JEWS BOTH INSIDE AND OUTSIDE ISRAEL WHO EITHER BROADLY SUPPORT OR BROADLY OPPOSE THAT WHICH IS HAPPENING BOTH NOW AND HISTORICALLY. SAME AS ANY OTHER COMMUNITY. HOWEVER, SIMPLY POSTING UP SOMETHING BY A JEWISH PERSON IS ABOUT AS VALID IS ME POSTING UP SOMETHING BY SOME RANDOM ENGLISH PERSON SAYING THEY MUST HAVE ADD WEIGHT TO AN DISCUSSION ABOUT UK POLITICS SIMPLY BY BEING ENGLISH. WE ALL KNOW ENGLISH PEOPLE WHO ARE UTTERLY STUPID AND ILL INFORMED AND WE ALL DOUBTLESS KNOW FOREIGN NATIONALS WHO ARE EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT AND WELL VERSED. I KNOW WHOSE VIEW I WOULD CONSIDER TO BE MORE INTERESTING. JEWS, SAME AS ANYONE ELSE THINK ALL SORTS OF THINGS SO POSTING BLOGS ETC FROM ANY INDIVIDUAL OR PUBLICATION ONLY DEMONSTRATES THAT AT LEAST ONE PERSON HOLDS THAT VIEW. POSSIBLY BILLIONS DO, POSSIBLY NOT, BUT WHAT WE CAN SAY FOR CERTAIN IS ONE DOES!
ADDITIONALLY, TO LINK THE CONFLICT ITSELF AS MOTIVATED BY RACE / RELIGION IS DEEPLY INCORRECT. IT IS NOT, NEVER REALLY HAS BEEN. IT IS A FACTOR AND AN EASY WAY TO SHORTHAND THE SITUATION, BUT A SHORTHAND IS NOT EXACTLY SSUFFICIENT IN SUCH A COMPLEX CASE...
Pappa Lurve said:
Then please comment on the Egypt issue.
Egypt is a military dictatorship. We really shouldn’t be looking at their actions to justify what the Israelis are doing. That aside, the dictatorship is worried about being overthrown (again) by the Muslim Brotherhood (who have links with Hamas). That is why they have placed restrictions on Gaza. These aren’t the actions of a democratic Govt. Do you think the Israeli Govt has the same legitimacy as the Egyptian one?NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND. HAMAS ARE SAYING THEY WILL NOT STOP FIRING ROCKETS AS ISRAEL UNTIL ISRAEL OPENS THE BLOCKADE AND EGYPT ALSO DOES. SO HOW CAN ISRAEL POSSIBLY AGREE TO OPEN THE EGYPTIAN BOARDER WHEN THE EGYPTIANS HAVE REFUSED? THE BASIC PREMISE OF A CEASEFIRE THEREFORE IS SADLY IMPOSSIBLE WHEN ONE PARTY PLACES A CONDITION THAT AS A SIMPLE FACT CANNOT BE FULFILLED BE THE PARTY IT IS DEMANDED OF. IT IS NO MORE VIABLE ME SAYING THAT IF MY FRIEND FRED BUYS A G-WHIZZ, I'LL GIVE YOU A SLAP (TO BE FAIR, GIVING FRED ONE WOULD I FEEL BE THE ONLY SUITABLE WAY FORWARD!). AS A SIMPLE STATEMENT OF FACT ISRAEL CANNOT AGREE TO LOWER THE EGYPTIAN BLOCKADE AND CROSSINGS THUS LINKING THAT TO A CEASEFIRE WITH ISRAEL IS CLEARLY EITHER INSANE OR A SIMPLE WAY OF PREVENTING THE CEASEFIRE WHICH WAS AGREED TO BY ALL OTHER PARTIES.
Pappa Lurve said:
Regarding the settlements being easier to defend - I assume you are experienced in military matters and understand the exact strategic situation on the ground at the time? If not, perhaps you could evidence this.
No I’m not. My comments are based on what was said by Sharon and various Israeli military spokesmen at the time.The links below might clarify.http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.answers....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
WHILE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN A FACTOR, IT WAS ALSO A SIMPLE CALCULATION AT THE TIME. THE PUBLIC SUPPORTED SHARON TO DO IT UNILATERALLY AT THE TIME. IT WAS WITHOUT PRE-CONDITION BUT MADE VERY CLEAR THAT IT COULD BE A STRONG STEP FORWARD. THE SAD IRONY IS THAT FATAH TOOK THAT OPPORTUNITY AND TO A GREAT EXTENT CONTINUE SO TO DO WHICH IS WHY THE WB SITUATION IS GENERALLY BETTER. THERE IS NO MAIN STREAM APPETITE OR INTEREST IN ISRAEL, CONTRARY TO POPULAR OPINION,TO CREATE A GREATER ISRAEL OR REMAIN PERMANATLY IN THE WEST BANK. SURE, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT THAT BUT TO STATE IT IS A MAJORITY OR EVEN SIGNIFICANT MINORITY IS ALMOST AS ACCURATE AS THE FILTH AND BILE POURED OUT OF THE MEDIA EVERY DAY ABOUT EVIL MUSLIMS.
Pappa Lurve said:
Someone mentioned about roads in WB - I know there are restricted roads there. I stated Israel. I neither like, agree with or condone those roads which is neither here nor there, considering they are not in the country I mentioned. And as a response to all the other points I made....um... anything?!
“Neither here nor there”? Israeli control of the WB, the continuing increase in Settlements along with the associated military infrastructure and restrictions on Palestinian movement are fundamental issues underlying the conflict. You are correct that they are not in the Country mentioned. They are being built by the Israeli Govt in occupied territory, as part of their intention to annexe the West Bank. If Israel genuinely wanted peace it would address this issue.I started this ages ago so the forum may well have moved on, responded etc. I wont be back until much later but if anything here above is out of context etc as I started this hours ago and then had to get on with stuff, sorry! And yet again, caps as I am a moron, not as I am shouty!
deadslow said:
Mrr T said:
deadslow said:
Yes. If a gunman grabs your kid as a shield when confronted by a police marksman, you don't expect the police officer to kill your kid immediately and tell you it was the gunman's fault. You would rightly expect negotiation, or a 'hit' so accurate as to to safely take out only the gunman.
Is that really an accurate analogy?How about a gun man grabs your kid and starts to shoot at a group on innocent bystanders. Should the police marksman:
a) shoot the gunman to save the bystanders but risk shooting your child
b) leave the gunman to shoot the bystanders
Your choice
Mrr T said:
deadslow said:
The terrorists are murderers, but so are the people of Israel, who apparently will only be satisfied when their heavily armed soldiers have murderered every child in Gaza. Almost biblical.
I believe there are about 600,000 children in Gaza. Are you really suggesting Israel is trying to shoot them all?Grumfutock said:
Whilst I agree that Israel does treat the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?
You might be confusing Hamas and Fatah. Fatah have recognised Israel's right to exist. If Israel had made peace with Fatah it would have shown the Palestinians that a just and viable two state solution was possible. It would have shown that negotiation rather than violence was the way forward. Unfortunately that didn't happen which played into the hands of the extremists. Hamas were able to say, with accuracy that it was pointless trying to negotiate as Israel wasn't interested in peace and would carry on building Settlements ad nauseam.You guys still at it.
What a waste of your time .
Entrenched ideas, reasonable discussion points becoming ideological rants.
Don't you realise that you are the problem.
If you worked on the areas you agree on,you might go forward,instead you prefer to argue.
What's the point in that ?
You all have posed relevant comments but it shortly descends into a verbal bun fight.
Agree to disagree and move on.
What a waste of your time .
Entrenched ideas, reasonable discussion points becoming ideological rants.
Don't you realise that you are the problem.
If you worked on the areas you agree on,you might go forward,instead you prefer to argue.
What's the point in that ?
You all have posed relevant comments but it shortly descends into a verbal bun fight.
Agree to disagree and move on.
Mr Snap said:
What do you mean he's "not just a writer but a regular guest etc etc"? The very reason he's on US radio is because he's a right-wing nut-job, ready to say something objectionable - anytime, anywhere - for a fat fee. The US airwaves are thick with similar right-wing nut-jobs. It merely proves that lots of people in the US like right-wing nut-jobs, it doesn't make his opinions right.
Some how I suspected you would not like Americans. Typical lefty. Nor does it make his opinions wrong and yours right.Mr Snap said:
So you agree with STEYN that Europe is about to become "Eurabia" eh?
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
I assume you are referring to the book "Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight of the West " You say have read the book. So why do you comment about things which are not in the book?You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
Mr Snap said:
Now, I'm not sure if you've read many books - apart from STEYN's and the illustrated comics authored by Simon Dunstan, that you so love - but this sort of stuff has been seen before. In the past, the global conspiracy wasn't down to the Moslems, it was down to Jews. In the early 1900's another right-wing nut-job pretended to find a secret book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". "The Protocols" purported to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It was printed everywhere and it became one of Adolph Hitler's primary justifications for the holocaust and hundreds of smaller pogroms. Hundreds of thousands of copies were printed and distributed in the US by Henry Ford alone. Not a word of it was true but it polluted global politics and you could even argue it led, indirectly, to the existence of the state of Israel.
I have read one or two books.As for Simon Dunstan the only book I have read by him is the Osprey book on the Six Day War. As with most Osprey books they are short histories with a significant amount of technical detail, order of battle etc. They are short on opinion and concentrate on the detail. A good start to some one reading up on a subject for the first time. You will also find all the facts and quotes in the book are referenced. .
Mr Snap said:
Steyn's "Eurabia" is a new gloss on an old story except this time it's not Jews - they are the heroes this time - it's the Moslems. There is no Moslem plot to rule the world within 30 years (he reckons it'll happen in the US, too. It'll just take longer), but it suits Steyn's purposes to say so. And he makes a mint from saying so. "Eurabia's" underpinnings are as racist as the people who disseminated "The Protocols", it's merely wrapped up in a nicer package. To say you're an admirer is merely to state that you like your racist propaganda to be hardcore. Steyn is a nihilist, ready to tear down everything believing that somehow things will be better afterwards. Well if that's what you want, then you probably have more in common with Hamas than you think - which I don't think you do (think, that is).
Has Mark Steyn written a book called "Eurabia"? If he has I have not seen it. I can see an author call Bat ye'or has and seem to hold the views you attribute to Mark Steyn. Maybe you read the wrong book. Again can I suggest you read Mark Steyn's work rather than just quoting things you have clearly picked up on some lefty web site you can then comment on what he wrote not what you think he wrote.
Mr Snap said:
You've repeatedly maintained your "objectivity", but each time you refer to a specific source it turns out to be published not by a respected academic but either from a nut-job or from someone who is demonstrably biased. I've read Steyn but I've also read the people who have taken his drek to pieces. You don't, you merely seek out information that justifies your own point of view. Unfortunately your point of view is hopelessly wrong and each time you add to this thread it becomes more apparent.
I have never said I was objective. No one can ever be completely objective. Who has been taking Mark Steyn's drek to pieces. I think that's illegal in many states in the US.
As for my point of view being hopelessly wrong. That of cause is your view.
Mr Snap said:
Excuse me. According to your rules, you're supposed to supply references and citations as to why I'm wrong. This is what you have previously demanded of others (yet have singularly failed to do yourself).
I am not going to go back over the whole of this thread but I think in all my posts I have recommended 2 books as a good starting place to read up on the six day war and to other facts which I referenced.Mr Snap said:
The fact that I've followed your contributions over scores of pages indicates that I've listened extremely carefully to what you, and others, have said. For each argument you've made, I've put a counter arguments. This is called debate. What you're actually saying is you're no longer prepared to discuss anything with me because I've failed to agree with you. And, because I keep countering your arguments, you're no longer interested in debating. Someone less charitable might think you're slinking away.
How kind that you take such an interest in my posts. As for your posts I find them entirely predictable anti Israel tirades. Mr Snap said:
One might say that it's somewhat ironic that when you're defending the Israelis specifically for their refusal to walk away from a fight, it's precisely the form of action you've chosen to take with me. Could it be that walking away from an aggressor is a valid option after all?
Ignore me if you wish. But I think you're making a big mistake. Don't think I won't continue to "listen" to your contributions and take them to tiny pieces, bit by bit. I'd have said that's a bit of an own goal, if you ask me...
Dam I cracked. Ignore me if you wish. But I think you're making a big mistake. Don't think I won't continue to "listen" to your contributions and take them to tiny pieces, bit by bit. I'd have said that's a bit of an own goal, if you ask me...
I also notice from the posts below mine on Mark Steyn there seem to be a number of other right wing nut jobs in here. So Hi to you guys.
Edited by Mrr T on Friday 25th July 16:16
Mr Snap said:
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years.
Forgive me, but in which book/piece/column/posting does he outline this plot?From my reading he is simply highlighting failures within western society that have ALLOWED peoples of other cultures to 'move in', both here and abroad, and that some of these new arrivals reproduce quicker than 'indigenous' peoples. All of which is backed up by current population statistics. It is not so much a plot, more an inevitable outcome coupled with a strong and well entrenched cultural/religious norm.
His conclusions are just that - his own interpretation. But going by the changes in the last 30 years, the next 30 - if change keeps apace - will be interesting. He does not say 'nothing can be done' but rather highlights the potential if, indeed, nothing is done.
However, this is derailing the thread - except you are welcome to pull apart the salient piece I linked to regarding the Palestinian situation.
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Whilst I agree that Israel does treat the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?
You might be confusing Hamas and Fatah. Fatah have recognised Israel's right to exist. If Israel had made peace with Fatah it would have shown the Palestinians that a just and viable two state solution was possible. It would have shown that negotiation rather than violence was the way forward. Unfortunately that didn't happen which played into the hands of the extremists. Hamas were able to say, with accuracy that it was pointless trying to negotiate as Israel wasn't interested in peace and would carry on building Settlements ad nauseam.No confusion what so ever. Seems real clear.
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Whilst I agree that Israel does treat the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?
You might be confusing Hamas and Fatah. Fatah have recognised Israel's right to exist. If Israel had made peace with Fatah it would have shown the Palestinians that a just and viable two state solution was possible. It would have shown that negotiation rather than violence was the way forward. Unfortunately that didn't happen which played into the hands of the extremists. Hamas were able to say, with accuracy that it was pointless trying to negotiate as Israel wasn't interested in peace and would carry on building Settlements ad nauseam.No confusion what so ever. Seems real clear.
Grumfutock said:
how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?
By negotiating a peace with Fatah and marginalising Hamas. Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
Edited by Countdown on Friday 25th July 17:12
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
That number proves they are not out to slaughter. If they were, tens of thousands would have easily been killed by now. Don't be so simple.
Sorry we don't mean to be simple. Just like you probably don't mean to be a patronising reactionary. 
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Whilst I agree that Israel does treat the Palestinians as 2nd class citizens how the hell do you negotiate a peace agreement with people that have the stated aim of eradicating the state of Israel?
You might be confusing Hamas and Fatah. Fatah have recognised Israel's right to exist. If Israel had made peace with Fatah it would have shown the Palestinians that a just and viable two state solution was possible. It would have shown that negotiation rather than violence was the way forward. Unfortunately that didn't happen which played into the hands of the extremists. Hamas were able to say, with accuracy that it was pointless trying to negotiate as Israel wasn't interested in peace and would carry on building Settlements ad nauseam.No confusion what so ever. Seems real clear.
Scuffers said:
RedTrident said:
And it is Israel that is murdering women and children. No doubt whatsoever.
Don't be so simplisticIf you honestly belive this is the intent of the IDF you are deluded.
Mrr T said:
Mr Snap said:
Sorry we don't mean to be simple. Just like you probably don't mean to be a patronising reactionary.
Jimbeaux I think you have just been called a patronising reactionary. I hope you are not to upset. I know you Americans are such sensative soles. Jimbeaux said:
Not seems, it IS real clear. This ^^^
Take off the blinkers Jimbeaux. How many peace initiatives have been started by the US, only to be thrown back in your face by the Israelis? How much cr@p has the US been blamed for, and dragged into because of them? They are leading you by the nose.http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
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