Discussion
Countdown said:
By negotiating a peace with Fatah and marginalising Hamas.
Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
OK now I see what you mean Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
Edited by Countdown on Friday 25th July 17:12
. However Israel even supplied Fatah with small arms and ammo in 2006, you don't get much more recognised than that,Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
By negotiating a peace with Fatah and marginalising Hamas.
Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
OK now I see what you mean Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
. However Israel even supplied Fatah with small arms and ammo in 2006, you don't get much more recognised than that,Mrr T said:
Mr Snap said:
What do you mean he's "not just a writer but a regular guest etc etc"? The very reason he's on US radio is because he's a right-wing nut-job, ready to say something objectionable - anytime, anywhere - for a fat fee. The US airwaves are thick with similar right-wing nut-jobs. It merely proves that lots of people in the US like right-wing nut-jobs, it doesn't make his opinions right.
Some how I suspected you would not like Americans. Typical lefty. Nor does it make his opinions wrong and yours right.Mr Snap said:
So you agree with STEYN that Europe is about to become "Eurabia" eh?
You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
I assume you are referring to the book "Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight of the West " You say have read the book. So why do you comment about things which are not in the book?You believe that Europe is going to be dominated by Islam in less than 30 years and that nothing - absolutely NOTHING - can be done about it? He's not saying 'Ooh! Immigration a bit of a problem' like Farage, he's saying that there is a concerted Moslem plot GUARANTEED to undermine democracy in the EU within about 30 years. That's right about 30 years. Do you seriously believe this? If you do, you are a nut-job. Even the most pessimistic interpretation of the current demographics, indicates that this isn't going to happen - ever.
Mr Snap said:
Now, I'm not sure if you've read many books - apart from STEYN's and the illustrated comics authored by Simon Dunstan, that you so love - but this sort of stuff has been seen before. In the past, the global conspiracy wasn't down to the Moslems, it was down to Jews. In the early 1900's another right-wing nut-job pretended to find a secret book called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". "The Protocols" purported to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It was printed everywhere and it became one of Adolph Hitler's primary justifications for the holocaust and hundreds of smaller pogroms. Hundreds of thousands of copies were printed and distributed in the US by Henry Ford alone. Not a word of it was true but it polluted global politics and you could even argue it led, indirectly, to the existence of the state of Israel.
I have read one or two books.As for Simon Dunstan the only book I have read by him is the Osprey book on the Six Day War. As with most Osprey books they are short histories with a significant amount of technical detail, order of battle etc. They are short on opinion and concentrate on the detail. A good start to some one reading up on a subject for the first time. You will also find all the facts and quotes in the book are referenced. .
Mr Snap said:
Steyn's "Eurabia" is a new gloss on an old story except this time it's not Jews - they are the heroes this time - it's the Moslems. There is no Moslem plot to rule the world within 30 years (he reckons it'll happen in the US, too. It'll just take longer), but it suits Steyn's purposes to say so. And he makes a mint from saying so. "Eurabia's" underpinnings are as racist as the people who disseminated "The Protocols", it's merely wrapped up in a nicer package. To say you're an admirer is merely to state that you like your racist propaganda to be hardcore. Steyn is a nihilist, ready to tear down everything believing that somehow things will be better afterwards. Well if that's what you want, then you probably have more in common with Hamas than you think - which I don't think you do (think, that is).
Has Mark Steyn written a book called "Eurabia"? If he has I have not seen it. I can see an author call Bat ye'or has and seem to hold the views you attribute to Mark Steyn. Maybe you read the wrong book. Again can I suggest you read Mark Steyn's work rather than just quoting things you have clearly picked up on some lefty web site you can then comment on what he wrote not what you think he wrote.
Mr Snap said:
You've repeatedly maintained your "objectivity", but each time you refer to a specific source it turns out to be published not by a respected academic but either from a nut-job or from someone who is demonstrably biased. I've read Steyn but I've also read the people who have taken his drek to pieces. You don't, you merely seek out information that justifies your own point of view. Unfortunately your point of view is hopelessly wrong and each time you add to this thread it becomes more apparent.
I have never said I was objective. No one can ever be completely objective. Who has been taking Mark Steyn's drek to pieces. I think that's illegal in many states in the US.
As for my point of view being hopelessly wrong. That of cause is your view.
Mr Snap said:
Excuse me. According to your rules, you're supposed to supply references and citations as to why I'm wrong. This is what you have previously demanded of others (yet have singularly failed to do yourself).
I am not going to go back over the whole of this thread but I think in all my posts I have recommended 2 books as a good starting place to read up on the six day war and to other facts which I referenced.Mr Snap said:
The fact that I've followed your contributions over scores of pages indicates that I've listened extremely carefully to what you, and others, have said. For each argument you've made, I've put a counter arguments. This is called debate. What you're actually saying is you're no longer prepared to discuss anything with me because I've failed to agree with you. And, because I keep countering your arguments, you're no longer interested in debating. Someone less charitable might think you're slinking away.
How kind that you take such an interest in my posts. As for your posts I find them entirely predictable anti Israel tirades. Mr Snap said:
One might say that it's somewhat ironic that when you're defending the Israelis specifically for their refusal to walk away from a fight, it's precisely the form of action you've chosen to take with me. Could it be that walking away from an aggressor is a valid option after all?
Ignore me if you wish. But I think you're making a big mistake. Don't think I won't continue to "listen" to your contributions and take them to tiny pieces, bit by bit. I'd have said that's a bit of an own goal, if you ask me...
Dam I cracked. Ignore me if you wish. But I think you're making a big mistake. Don't think I won't continue to "listen" to your contributions and take them to tiny pieces, bit by bit. I'd have said that's a bit of an own goal, if you ask me...
I also notice from the posts below mine on Mark Steyn there seem to be a number of other right wing nut jobs in here. So Hi to you guys.
Edited by Mrr T on Friday 25th July 16:16
Where did I say there was a book called "Eurabia"? It's a term used to describe his, and others, theory that there is an Islamic plot to overthrow Europe within one generation. It's a term used freely by the people who believe the theory, much like Melanie Phillip's similarly noxious "Londonistan" epithet. The fact that you're unaware of the term merely shows your shallow knowledge of the subject.
"Pre-modern Islam beats post-modern Christianity... [Much of the Western world] will not survive the twenty-first century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most European countries." America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It - M Steyn. Pub Regenery 2006.
Clearly, anyone who ascribes to this plot theory, sees the world in radically different terms to any normal person. And anyone who believes this theory thinks war has already been declared and that the enemy is within the gates - meaning that all and any concerted action against Islam is justified and the ends will justify the means. To true believers, Gaza is a sideshow in the crusade against Islam and Steyn is their prophet.
Like pornographers and extreme left-wingers (of which I am not one, thanks) Steyn is only interested in "Freedom of Speech" in so far as it allows him to produce his own racist bile. Be under no illusion, should his hopes come to fruition such freedoms would soon be curtailed. The freedom to be a Moslem, for instance, would rapidly become a life threatening proposition. Borderline fascism.
'Drek' is yiddish for crap. Which is what Steyn's stuff is. It's also the term [drecht] used by Heidegger to describe Sartre's "On Being and Nothingness", in which Sartre ripped off Heidegger's ideas without understanding them. I thought you might like it.
As for Simon Dunstan, you now appear to be back peddling, you argued earlier that his work was authoritative.
Jimbeaux said:
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
That number proves they are not out to slaughter. If they were, tens of thousands would have easily been killed by now. Don't be so simple.
Sorry we don't mean to be simple. Just like you probably don't mean to be a patronising reactionary. 
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
By negotiating a peace with Fatah and marginalising Hamas.
Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
OK now I see what you mean Fatah has recognised Israel's right to exist.
Edited by Countdown on Friday 25th July 17:12
. However Israel even supplied Fatah with small arms and ammo in 2006, you don't get much more recognised than that,http://muftah.org/original-sin-how-the-oslo-accord...
Scuffers said:
if it were not for Hamas, I suspect Abbas would have done a deal by now...
We've made peace with the IRA. As far as I'm, aware we haven't made peace with the Real IRA, Continuity IRA, or any other offshoot.Between 2005 and 2011 Hamas and Fatah were separate entities. Fatah was in control of the WB. During this time there was no progress towards peace. Settlements continued to grow. Can you see a pattern here?
Jimbeaux said:
Scuffers said:
RedTrident said:
And it is Israel that is murdering women and children. No doubt whatsoever.
Don't be so simplisticIf you honestly belive this is the intent of the IDF you are deluded.
What Israel has done, particularly in the school, is murder.
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
That number proves they are not out to slaughter. If they were, tens of thousands would have easily been killed by now. Don't be so simple.
Sorry we don't mean to be simple. Just like you probably don't mean to be a patronising reactionary. Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Not seems, it IS real clear. This ^^^
Take off the blinkers Jimbeaux. How many peace initiatives have been started by the US, only to be thrown back in your face by the Israelis? How much cr@p has the US been blamed for, and dragged into because of them? They are leading you by the nose.http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Mr Snap said:
Back to the parsing ploy, eh? I'm perfectly capable of following a cogent argument presented in one piece, thank you. Parsing only makes it difficult to respond unless one is prepared to undergo death by embedding.
Parsing allows one to answer the specific arguments where as you like to answer things I never said. Typical lefty false flag ploy. Mr Snap said:
Where did I say there was a book called "Eurabia"? It's a term used to describe his, and others, theory that there is an Islamic plot to overthrow Europe within one generation. It's a term used freely by the people who believe the theory, much like Melanie Phillip's similarly noxious "Londonistan" epithet. The fact that you're unaware of the term merely shows your shallow knowledge of the subject.
I see you have still not read the book and have no sense of humour.Mr Snap said:
"Pre-modern Islam beats post-modern Christianity... [Much of the Western world] will not survive the twenty-first century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most European countries." America Alone: The End Of The World As We Know It - M Steyn. Pub Regenery 2006.
Clearly, anyone who ascribes to this plot theory, sees the world in radically different terms to any normal person. And anyone who believes this theory thinks war has already been declared and that the enemy is within the gates - meaning that all and any concerted action against Islam is justified and the ends will justify the means. To true believers, Gaza is a sideshow in the crusade against Islam and Steyn is their prophet.
I see you have still not read the book and have no sense of humour. Yawn.Clearly, anyone who ascribes to this plot theory, sees the world in radically different terms to any normal person. And anyone who believes this theory thinks war has already been declared and that the enemy is within the gates - meaning that all and any concerted action against Islam is justified and the ends will justify the means. To true believers, Gaza is a sideshow in the crusade against Islam and Steyn is their prophet.
Mr Snap said:
Like pornographers and extreme left-wingers (of which I am not one, thanks) Steyn is only interested in "Freedom of Speech" in so far as it allows him to produce his own racist bile. Be under no illusion, should his hopes come to fruition such freedoms would soon be curtailed. The freedom to be a Moslem, for instance, would rapidly become a life threatening proposition. Borderline fascism.
Like most left winger you clearly have no idea about free speech. Since I do believe in free speech you are welcome to continue spouting rubbish.Mr Snap said:
'Drek' is yiddish for crap. Which is what Steyn's stuff is. It's also the term [drecht] used by Heidegger to describe Sartre's "On Being and Nothingness", in which Sartre ripped off Heidegger's ideas without understanding them. I thought you might like it.
Thank you I was not aware of that. I can only say I am glad to describe you post as drek.Mr Snap said:
As for Simon Dunstan, you now appear to be back peddling, you argued earlier that his work was authoritative.
I see why you hate parsing. It means you can disagree with something I did not say. Typical.RedTrident said:
Jimbeaux said:
Scuffers said:
RedTrident said:
And it is Israel that is murdering women and children. No doubt whatsoever.
Don't be so simplisticIf you honestly belive this is the intent of the IDF you are deluded.
What Israel has done, particularly in the school, is murder.
Before you answer, drink this in; leaving that strip of land, pre-1967 borders, etc. will not mean a damn thing. Israel existing at all is what pisses these people off; Gaza is simply a useful rallying point and sideshow for people that fall for it.
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Not seems, it IS real clear. This ^^^
Take off the blinkers Jimbeaux. How many peace initiatives have been started by the US, only to be thrown back in your face by the Israelis? How much cr@p has the US been blamed for, and dragged into because of them? They are leading you by the nose.http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
It pretty much says 'If Israel didn't exist, there would be peace.' Well whoopee-doo!
Time for an interlude. Chill time Guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAe0HCHJTDA
"Simple Minds".....Obviously lost on the entrenched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAe0HCHJTDA
"Simple Minds".....Obviously lost on the entrenched.
Edited by Mojocvh on Friday 25th July 19:41
Jimbeaux said:
Simple question: Hamas has cumulatively launched around 2,000 rockets this go around into Israel. Obviously Israel have the right to defend themselves, nobody disagrees there. Hamas has placed said rocket launchers in schools, hospitals, etc. It really leaves no choice for Israel but to hit them where they are. Hamas of course welcomes the dead Palestinian children because 1)That is fantastic publicity (which works well on you). 2)Because they do not give a damn about those Palestinians to begin with, so no loss there. That my friend, puts the murder on the heads of Hamas IMO. What is your solution?
Before you answer, drink this in; leaving that strip of land, pre-1967 borders, etc. will not mean a damn thing. Israel existing at all is what pisses these people off; Gaza is simply a useful rallying point and sideshow for people that fall for it.
All of the above is correct.Before you answer, drink this in; leaving that strip of land, pre-1967 borders, etc. will not mean a damn thing. Israel existing at all is what pisses these people off; Gaza is simply a useful rallying point and sideshow for people that fall for it.
The key though, is support for Hamas. Without the blockade, they are nothing.
Art0ir said:
Jimbeaux said:
Simple question: Hamas has cumulatively launched around 2,000 rockets this go around into Israel. Obviously Israel have the right to defend themselves, nobody disagrees there. Hamas has placed said rocket launchers in schools, hospitals, etc. It really leaves no choice for Israel but to hit them where they are. Hamas of course welcomes the dead Palestinian children because 1)That is fantastic publicity (which works well on you). 2)Because they do not give a damn about those Palestinians to begin with, so no loss there. That my friend, puts the murder on the heads of Hamas IMO. What is your solution?
Before you answer, drink this in; leaving that strip of land, pre-1967 borders, etc. will not mean a damn thing. Israel existing at all is what pisses these people off; Gaza is simply a useful rallying point and sideshow for people that fall for it.
All of the above is correct.Before you answer, drink this in; leaving that strip of land, pre-1967 borders, etc. will not mean a damn thing. Israel existing at all is what pisses these people off; Gaza is simply a useful rallying point and sideshow for people that fall for it.
The key though, is support for Hamas. Without the blockade, they are nothing.
Jimbeaux said:
Simple question: Hamas has cumulatively launched around 2,000 rockets this go around into Israel. Obviously Israel have the right to defend themselves, nobody disagrees there. Hamas has placed said rocket launchers in schools, hospitals, etc. It really leaves no choice for Israel but to hit them where they are.
Actually israel has two choices (1) Continue bombing the Palestinians in the hope that eventually they decide living in a prison camp is better than death and the World gets bored of watching or (2) Make a genuine attempt at peace. the second option is much harder which is why we are where we are.supersingle said:
Suddenly your perspective becomes clear. There are hundreds of pages on that site all placing the blame at the feet of Israel and Zionism. I couldn't find a single scrap of criticism, blame or responsibility laid with the Arabs.
It pretty much says 'If Israel didn't exist, there would be peace.' Well whoopee-doo!
Is there anything in the link which is factually incorrect?It pretty much says 'If Israel didn't exist, there would be peace.' Well whoopee-doo!
Countdown said:
Jimbeaux said:
Simple question: Hamas has cumulatively launched around 2,000 rockets this go around into Israel. Obviously Israel have the right to defend themselves, nobody disagrees there. Hamas has placed said rocket launchers in schools, hospitals, etc. It really leaves no choice for Israel but to hit them where they are.
Actually israel has two choices (1) Continue bombing the Palestinians in the hope that eventually they decide living in a prison camp is better than death and the World gets bored of watching or (2) Make a genuine attempt at peace. the second option is much harder which is why we are where we are.
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