Israeli

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speedy_thrills

7,760 posts

242 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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BlackLabel said:
I used to have a lot of sympathy for Israel however their disproportionate response to the Hamas rocket attacks...
Building the rocket interceptor system?

What would a more proportionate response have been, firing an equal number of unguided rockets back in an indescriminate manner? I don't think that would have been a good idea. I'd implore Israel to stick to improving their interception systems until such time as a deal can be reached.

redtwin

7,518 posts

181 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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No justification for two police officers to pin a child down on the ground and kick him in the head. Even if that child had just murdered 100 people. He may have initially resisted arrest, but they eventually got the upper hand and continued to rain down punches and kicks even after he was subdued.

Arrest him, charge him, then a trial by the courts. Anything else beyond that is vigilantism.

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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GTIR said:
I wonder how things would be if the USA was on the side of the Palestinian's.

I boycott any Israeli products and I love dates!

The majority of Palestinian rockets get intercepted by the Israeli defence force. Each time the Israelis retaliate with "targeted" missile strikes.

bds.




.
I'm going to buy loads of Israeli products to counter your boycott.

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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skyrover said:
GTIR said:
I wonder how things would be if the USA was on the side of the Palestinian's.
USA donated $457,400,000 in aid to the Palestinians in 2012... the only countries who received more aid per capita were Afghanistan, Israel and Jordan. Palestinians received nearly twice as much aid per head as Iraqi's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreig...
Doesn't that miss the point a bit? There are 2 sides here. Israel and Palestine. So compare the 2 sides. Using the data you've posted, Israel receives more than 6 times the aid the West Bank and Gaza receive (a proxy for Palestine i presume?).

And most of the aid to Israel appears to be military aid. So to a layman like me, that looks like the US favours Israel.


skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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Alpinestars said:
And most of the aid to Israel appears to be military aid. So to a layman like me, that looks like the US favours Israel.
Per capita, Israel receives 4x as much aid, although you are correct it is mostly military aid.

I would like to see Jordan use some of that vast aid it recieves to grant the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them properly.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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AW111 said:
skyrover said:
Not excusing the actions of the Israeli police at all, but lets look at this in context.

This youth was wearing a mask and throwing molotov cocktails and stones at them earlier, so is not the innocent party some might assume.

Police brutality/aggressiveness is found in every country worldwide. A quick trip to a Brazilian favela would open the OP's eye's a bit
Do you have any evidence for your molotov cocktail accusation? It wasn't in the story I read.

Incidentally, the boy's cousin was burned alive a day or two ago, presumably by Israeli fanatics, which may explain why he was protesting / throwing stones.
Except from Gaza by Marillion [that bunch of radicals that they are]

You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind, it is said
When people know they have no future
Can we blame them if we cannot tame them?
And when their hopes and dreams are broken
And they feel they might as well be dead
As they go, will we forgive them
If they take us with them?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5VKmyDEF6U&li...

GTIR

24,741 posts

265 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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Funkycoldribena said:
GTIR said:
I wonder how things would be if the USA was on the side of the Palestinian's.

I boycott any Israeli products and I love dates!

The majority of Palestinian rockets get intercepted by the Israeli defence force. Each time the Israelis retaliate with "targeted" missile strikes.

bds.




.
I'm going to buy loads of Israeli products to counter your boycott.
Can you send me so e dates then?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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GTIR said:
I boycott any Israeli products and I love dates!

.
You may want to check which security and anti virus software you use as a lot of the code and information security software originates in Israel so you can boycott that as well to add to your warm cosy glow of self satisfaction but check to see if you are using Intel chips on your devices as you will need to remove them as well.

Also if you ever need any medical treatment you may want to check if any of the technology has been developed in Israel so you can boycott that as well.

A few generations of war and the Israeli mentality has resulted in some world changing technology, some of it for world good and some of it to make killing each other more efficient.

Its a lot more complicated than refusing to buy Israeli fruit and veg at M&S, if you going to have a moral stand and deprive Palestinian farmers of income at least spread that to the rest of the sectors in Israel.


Mr Snap

2,364 posts

156 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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skyrover said:
Per capita, Israel receives 4x as much aid, although you are correct it is mostly military aid.

I would like to see Jordan use some of that vast aid it recieves to grant the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them properly.
Why should Jordan be obliged to pick up the mess created by the Israeli's? How would you like it if half the french population decided to up sticks and move across the channel? Why should the Jordanians be expected to tolerate levels of immigration that we wouldn't tolerate ourselves. Palestinians aren't Jordanians, to think otherwise is the same as saying all arabs are the same...

As for the Israeli 'targeted missile attacks', they aren't any better targeted than the Palestinian rocket attacks. The Israeli's vulnerable to the attacks also have the option of being able to move out of southern Israel if they wish, those living in Gaza don't have that luxury, they literally can't escape. No wonder they act like rats in a trap, you probably would too under the same circumstances.

league67

1,878 posts

202 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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skyrover said:
Isolated incident after which as in civilized country officer had to answer questions. I do think police got it very wrong at Tomlinson. Tomlinson was hit by button once and pushed to the ground. If you want to compare that with repeated purposeful kicking of a kid, then you'd need help.
The chances of any meaningful holding to the account officers involved in this brutality is the same as the Ukrainian govt finding and prosecuting thugs who burned people alive in the building. You seem to approve of any means necessary if they coincide with your sympathies.

skyrover said:
I don't often post in these threads because, as you have just demonstrated, people tend to slide towards the extreme end of each argument.
Just for the record, Brazil is no African dictatorship, but a fast growing "modern" democracy
Brazil no African dictatorship? Thanks for the valuable geographical lesson, I was under impression that Brazil was indeed in Africa. Any brutality in any country is to be condemned.

skyrover said:
Who's justifying anything? Just adding context.
Word for word you were typing same things as Israeli spokesperson. You have no evidence that this kid was involved. None at all. That is not adding context. That's presenting something that you read, from very biased source, as a gospel. Learn to differentiate between the two.

skyrover said:
What's with the personal attacks?
Personal attack is my statement that pummelling a kid on the ground and seemingly kicking his head is disturbing?

Yes, I'll say it again; Anyone who doesn't find someone kicking defenceless person, like on that video, disturbing, is not normal.


GTIR

24,741 posts

265 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
Vandenberg said:
GTIR said:
I boycott any Israeli products and I love dates!

.
You may want to check which security and anti virus software you use as a lot of the code and information security software originates in Israel so you can boycott that as well to add to your warm cosy glow of self satisfaction but check to see if you are using Intel chips on your devices as you will need to remove them as well.

Also if you ever need any medical treatment you may want to check if any of the technology has been developed in Israel so you can boycott that as well.

A few generations of war and the Israeli mentality has resulted in some world changing technology, some of it for world good and some of it to make killing each other more efficient.

Its a lot more complicated than refusing to buy Israeli fruit and veg at M&S, if you going to have a moral stand and deprive Palestinian farmers of income at least spread that to the rest of the sectors in Israel.
My comment was (as usual) tongue in cheek but thanks for biting and giving us some interesting facts.

Besides. Isn't Haymarket owned by an Israeli parent company?

Octoposse

2,152 posts

184 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
The tragedy is that everybody - Hamas, the Israeli government and opposition parties, the people just trying to get on with their lives, feed their kids, go to work - knows what a lasting peace deal will look like . . .
“Land for peace”, and two states;
• A viable Palestinian state based on Gaza and the West Bank;
• The permanent border between the two states freely negotiated between them – undoubtedly ending up as some close +/- to the 1967 border;
• Palestinian (and other relevant Arab state) recognition of Israel;
• Security guarantees for all states in the region;
• Surrender by the Palestinians of the right of return of refugees to lands falling within the agreed Israeli borders (compensation for which paid for by the EU and the US - ergo a lot tougher now than pre-crash);
• Partition and/or some form of international status for Jerusalem.

Right now it is Israel that doesn't want to pay the price of peace, because it's higher than the price of 'war', politically and economically. Israeli governments cannot conceive of paying the internal political price of giving up sufficient of the occupied territories that will give the Palestinians the land, water and resources they need to establish a viable state. The folly of concreting themselves into the West Bank is now plain to see - it's turned from a bargaining chip into an immovable object.

That, paradoxically, is why Israel is (again) attempting to crush Hamas - it's not that they are too militant, it is that they are disciplined and uncorrupt enough to deliver peace (unlike, say, Fatah under Arafat).

Palestinian strategy is therefore to create conditions in which it can increase the price of what Israel must pay to maintain the current status quo (thus making real peace more attractive), but Israel's tactics are to make the status quo 'affordable' (chiefly in Israeli lives) - hence the barrier, missile defence, the use of overwhelming force to crush dissent, and a tacit understanding by those on the front line that they have carte blanche to over react.

Wilmslowboy

4,189 posts

205 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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Little to add (or wish to add) on the Israel Palestine debate

However appears the USA are upset because only they are allowed to use police brutality.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NV7lO_1kWfo

(Some swearing at the start of the video)

Jasandjules

69,825 posts

228 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
Not excusing the actions of the Israeli police at all, but lets look at this in context.

This youth was wearing a mask and throwing molotov cocktails and stones at them earlier, so is not the innocent party some might assume.

Police brutality/aggressiveness is found in every country worldwide. A quick trip to a Brazilian favela would open the OP's eye's a bit
Perhaps if their response was to use absolute minimum force, they might get more sympathy.

You want to see how the best in the world do it? Look at our troops under attack by civilians in various war zones, even when molotovs are setting their tanks on fire.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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Mr Snap said:
Why should Jordan be obliged to pick up the mess created by the Israeli's? How would you like it if half the french population decided to up sticks and move across the channel? Why should the Jordanians be expected to tolerate levels of immigration that we wouldn't tolerate ourselves. Palestinians aren't Jordanians, to think otherwise is the same as saying all arabs are the same...
Because it's a bit short sighted to blame the whole mess on the Israeli's (although they do have their part)

There is no such country as Palestine, it's an invented state.

The concept of a Palestinian state in Jordan is not new. In fact, Jordan was created based on the Faisal-Weizmann agreement by which Jews agreed to give away 78 percent of the British Mandate for Palestine to the Hashemites to establish a homeland for the Palestinian Arabs.

The Hashemites have never kept their promise. Even today, the UNHCR reports that Jordan’s Palestinian majority is still treated as “refugees” by Jordan’s king.

They can't Vote, obtain citizenship, own land, obtain a driving license, access public education, access social benefits etc etc... yet we never hear about this.

Mr Snap said:
As for the Israeli 'targeted missile attacks', they aren't any better targeted than the Palestinian rocket attacks. The Israeli's vulnerable to the attacks also have the option of being able to move out of southern Israel if they wish, those living in Gaza don't have that luxury, they literally can't escape. No wonder they act like rats in a trap, you probably would too under the same circumstances.
So random firing of rockets into populated territories is excusable, but retaliation with precision weaponry is not?
You are saying the Israeli's should move away... do you think the rocket attacks would stop if they did?

RedTrident

8,290 posts

234 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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I read that there's been some arrests on the poor lad that was burned alive. Hopefully we'll see the same treatment handed out as if it was the other way round. Doubt we'll see their houses demolished or a bit of wider community punishment handed out though.

The earlier post about the barrier to peace is very accurate. Such a shame as apart from a few thousand settler zealots, everyone else will be satisfied with the compromise and have a chance of living in peace and with a degree of dignity.

Beati Dogu

8,862 posts

138 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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BlackLabel said:
How can this end?
Coastal erosion.

AW111

9,455 posts

132 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
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RedTrident said:
<snip>
The earlier post about the barrier to peace is very accurate. Such a shame as apart from a few thousand settler zealots, everyone else will be satisfied with the compromise and have a chance of living in peace and with a degree of dignity.
Since the zealots were prepared to assinate an Israeli prime minister in the past for "betraying the Jewish people" by negotiating with the PLO, they are still a major barrier.

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
Per capita, Israel receives 4x as much aid, although you are correct it is mostly military aid.

I would like to see Jordan use some of that vast aid it recieves to grant the Palestinians citizenship and integrate them properly.
Why should Jordan do that?

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
If the entire Israeli population upped and moved to the Arctic tomorrow do you really think there would be peace in the region??