Discussion
-Z- said:
Facts are facts. An average of 2 deaths per year for a population of 8 million is not justification for this action.
Netanyahu compared it to living through the Blitz. Do you agree with that?
30000 Londoners died during that.
If I was a veteran of the Blitz I would be pretty insulted.
Does Netanyahu's idiotic comparison not show how the fuss about the rockets is nothing more than a PR strategy?
So people have to die in order for action to be justified? So you'd feel better about the whole thing if Israel switched off Iron Dome for a bit?Netanyahu compared it to living through the Blitz. Do you agree with that?
30000 Londoners died during that.
If I was a veteran of the Blitz I would be pretty insulted.
Does Netanyahu's idiotic comparison not show how the fuss about the rockets is nothing more than a PR strategy?
They're being attacked, even if it's currently ineffective I still think I'd want the rockets stopped if I was Israeli.
Also, Iron Dome is a very expensive system to run and I'm not sure their countermeasure production can keep up with demand at the moment. I don't think they'll let everyone know but I think it's a bit of a race against time to stop the rockets before Iron Dome runs out.
-Z- said:
Scuffers said:
you're not the only one that's been to the gulf, and be honest, unless you worked in Baghdad or the like, that's a pretty meaningless statement.
and I would not call a Syrian made M-302 Khaibar missile trivial
So move to Haifa, beyond range. and I would not call a Syrian made M-302 Khaibar missile trivial
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That would never happen with the current trend (Hamas' evaporation)The question lies in 3 (Other).Like I said Israel's best hopes for peace had already come and gone when Fatah was the principal and dominant authority. Israel should have made a deal with Arafat, swallowed its pride in exchange for lasting peace, but instead it allowed and encouraged an Islamist movement to 'muscle aside secular Palestinian rival and morph into what is today Hamas'**, a thorn on Israel's side and its main threat.
The way to defuse the situation is to work closely with secular Fatah and show good faith by improving conditions in the WB for Palestinians, and show Fatah to be a worthy partner for future stability in the region. It's difficult, I know, but bombing the cr@ap out of Gazans can only serve to harness more support for Islamist Hamas.
What Israel has done in the 80s needs to be reversed now, and if Fatah and their supporters are 'rewarded' then maybe Palestinians' public opinion will shift towards Fatah and maybe the latter will end up muscling aside its fundamentalist rival. Who knows? Only a diplomatic solution would work.
History shows us no people were bombed into submission.
[i] "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric. [/i] Jan 24th 2009.
Edited by allnighter on Saturday 26th July 09:15
[quote=-Z-]
Still with the rocket argument.
Z,
I'm not sure you understand the situation fully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CadkBB_UONs
Phil
Still with the rocket argument.
Z,
I'm not sure you understand the situation fully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CadkBB_UONs
Phil
[quote=Countdown]
Who is the "they" that don't want Israel to exist? Egypt has made peace with osrael. Jordan has made peace with Israel. Syria has long said it would make peace with Israel if the Golan heights are returned (but Israel isn't willing to do that because of, yes you've guessed it, Settlements). there is no mythical "they" "brother nations" "Israel's right to exist.
Count,
I think the Golan is more of a security concern being that they are overlooking Syrian territory and offers a strategic advantage militarily for whoever holds them.
when this area was annexed in the war they encompassed several Syrian Druze villages. These people were while under the control of the Israeli's offered Israeli citizenship, and a sizeable number accepted.
The Druze have members in the IDF, have their own battalion, have members in parliament and are allowed to travel to Damascus to study. They also, through the UN sell their annual apple crop across into Syria.
I don't think there too many settlements in this area although I stand to be corrected.
Phil
Who is the "they" that don't want Israel to exist? Egypt has made peace with osrael. Jordan has made peace with Israel. Syria has long said it would make peace with Israel if the Golan heights are returned (but Israel isn't willing to do that because of, yes you've guessed it, Settlements). there is no mythical "they" "brother nations" "Israel's right to exist.
Count,
I think the Golan is more of a security concern being that they are overlooking Syrian territory and offers a strategic advantage militarily for whoever holds them.
when this area was annexed in the war they encompassed several Syrian Druze villages. These people were while under the control of the Israeli's offered Israeli citizenship, and a sizeable number accepted.
The Druze have members in the IDF, have their own battalion, have members in parliament and are allowed to travel to Damascus to study. They also, through the UN sell their annual apple crop across into Syria.
I don't think there too many settlements in this area although I stand to be corrected.
Phil
NoNeed said:
Does anybody have a solution to the problem?
I ask as I have not yet heard one that is even remotely achievable and the same argument has been going on since long before I was even born in 1971. It is easy to say they are sending rockets so we have to retaliate, but they see it differently are sending rockets to land that's theirs and if the Israeli's weren't there it wouldn't be a problem. The whole argument has been going round in circles for as long as I remember.
Here's a suggestion.I ask as I have not yet heard one that is even remotely achievable and the same argument has been going on since long before I was even born in 1971. It is easy to say they are sending rockets so we have to retaliate, but they see it differently are sending rockets to land that's theirs and if the Israeli's weren't there it wouldn't be a problem. The whole argument has been going round in circles for as long as I remember.
Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Phil
Scuffers said:
you are a muppet!
During the blitz, some 1,402 V2 rockets were fired at the UK, causing the deaths of some 2,754 civilians.
if back then London had the equivalent of Iron Dome and only a handful of people died, would that have made the justification for the normandy landings etc any less valid?
now, if you took away Israel's Iron dome system, just how many casualties do you think would be enough to validate action against them by the IDF?
the simple fact is Israel value the lives of their people, Hamas don't, and in that situation, who do you think is going to suffers the highest casualties?
That sir is very well said.During the blitz, some 1,402 V2 rockets were fired at the UK, causing the deaths of some 2,754 civilians.
if back then London had the equivalent of Iron Dome and only a handful of people died, would that have made the justification for the normandy landings etc any less valid?
now, if you took away Israel's Iron dome system, just how many casualties do you think would be enough to validate action against them by the IDF?
the simple fact is Israel value the lives of their people, Hamas don't, and in that situation, who do you think is going to suffers the highest casualties?
Mr Snap said:
It seems you've gone back to your problems with the whisky bottle. You remember, the whiskey bottle that you said people had to prove doesn't exist to prove their innocence.? I must put that one past one of my lawyer friends. It's amazing that "The burden of not being able to provide no proof" isn't already enshrined in UK law: Think of all the people you could send down for failing to provide proof of no proof! It would completely relieve the prosecution of the drag of having to prove anything at all. All they'd have to do is turn to the accused and demand that they prove they didn't whack Mrrs T over the head with the candlestick! "What, you can't prove you didn't have a candlestick!?" They wouldn't even need to find a body! I'm sorry Mrr T, you're going down and all due to your brilliant legal mind.
The posts you mention started with SR7492 suggesting the IDF where deliberately targeting hospitals and wanting others to provide evidence the missiles where there. I then asked him to provide evidence the missile where not there. So actually SR7492 was accusing Israel of a crime and wanted evidence of their innocence. I asked for evidence of their guilt.
Allnighter then started an analogy about whiskey bottles in his garden. I suggested the analogy was not appropriate since he would know what was happening in his garden. So the analogy worked better if the whisky bottle was in some one else’s garden.
My argument was that since neither of us had access to evidence neither of us could provide supporting evidence.
So let’s be clear there is no connection between your comment and what was actually happened.
Mr Snap said:
Oh dear. Back in the day you said.. "I assume you are referring to the book "Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight of the West " You say have read the book. So why do you comment about things which are not in the book?"
I've never claimed to read that book (you can look) and, yet, you accuse me of not having read it, err, again. Now I hate to point out what nonsense that is - especially after the whisky bottle debacle. But telling me that I haven't read a book that I've never claimed to have read is a teensy bit stupid, if you ask me. What I did was to quote a different book and I supplied a citation (those are the funny little words straight after the quote. But I suppose you already know that because you always ask other people to supply them...?). Never mind, it's just you making an ill-judged assertion again.
I dunno, if you're trying to make yourself look even more of a schmuck, you're doing a great job.
Your post 14.12 yesterday.I've never claimed to read that book (you can look) and, yet, you accuse me of not having read it, err, again. Now I hate to point out what nonsense that is - especially after the whisky bottle debacle. But telling me that I haven't read a book that I've never claimed to have read is a teensy bit stupid, if you ask me. What I did was to quote a different book and I supplied a citation (those are the funny little words straight after the quote. But I suppose you already know that because you always ask other people to supply them...?). Never mind, it's just you making an ill-judged assertion again.
I dunno, if you're trying to make yourself look even more of a schmuck, you're doing a great job.
Mr Snap said:
I've read Steyn
Transmitter Man said:
Here's a suggestion.
Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Phil
It's a nice idea but I don't think you're fully aware of the tactics the Israelis have been using for years at checkpoints. Checks are carried out at a snails pace and long queues form; in summer, vegetables perish in the heat, supplies of water etc are unavailable and shade limited. So, basically, Palestinians are discouraged from crossing a check point unless they have to.Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Phil
If you were to put the same international force on the check points it might work but the system is, essentially, prone to abuse.
Mr Snap said:
Evidence? (I got that trick from you - you must be so proud!) Please prove that I know nothing of free speech. Otherwise, keep your nasty assertions to yourself. I'm rude to you because your arguments don't hold water. You just sling ad homs without backing them up and expect people to bow down to them. Please prove specifically why I'm "spouting rubbish" or go down as someone who relies on assertions without backing them up. That's not the action of someone with a fine appreciation of freedom of speech, that's merely a ploy to divert attention from your own failings. You accused me of not listening and I went on to prove that I did. It's time for you to prove you're capable of listening and responding with factual proof. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to silence debate. And that doesn't fit with your protestation that you love the freedom of expression.
You do understand the difference between comment and facts and quotes?You can comment without facts or quotes.
However, when Allnighter posted comments about the Israel/Arab wars which he supported with quotes allegedly from senior Israel leaders and alleged intelligence briefing. I did ask for references. What I got where some links to articles where others had included the same quote but none which provided any link to prove the quote genuine.
As for my view of you it is summed up by this in your post.
Mrr T said:
Mr Snap said:
As for Simon Dunstan, you now appear to be back peddling, you argued earlier that his work was authoritative.
You diminish my research into allnighter revisionist history of the Arab/Israeli conflicts into "STUFF".I came across the following from a friend of a friend's Facebook page. It is written by a girl who is training to be an ambulance driver in Israel. I don't expect it to change the views of anyone who has already made up their mind about who is to blame for this conflict. But it offers a small morsel of food for thought about the reality of what the media is not covering. I don't think it needs any further comment or conclusion.
"Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
"Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
Transmitter Man said:
Here's a suggestion.
Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Great idea, issue us which country would volunteer to do the job and no matter who it was, Hamas would just target them.Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Mojocvh said:
Scuffers said:
Art0ir said:
You'll have to forgive me, this thread is full of such traps.
The IRA were defeated not because they were outsmarted or beaten by force, but because the local population grew tired of them.
No, they realised the game was up when the cash from the US dried up.The IRA were defeated not because they were outsmarted or beaten by force, but because the local population grew tired of them.
audidoody said:
I came across the following from a friend of a friend's Facebook page. It is written by a girl who is training to be an ambulance driver in Israel. I don't expect it to change the views of anyone who has already made up their mind about who is to blame for this conflict. But it offers a small morsel of food for thought about the reality of what the media is not covering. I don't think it needs any further comment or conclusion.
"Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
Tara yada Hamas to blame, out poor IDF boys, blinkered BS Sorry love, any IDF that sets foot in Gaza in their tanks and bulldozers are welcome to everything that comes to them. There's nothing more just than bullies with bloodied noses."Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
JuniorD said:
Tara yada Hamas to blame, out poor IDF boys, blinkered BS Sorry love, any IDF that sets foot in Gaza in their tanks and bulldozers are welcome to everything that comes to them. There's nothing more just than bullies with bloodied noses.
After such a thoughtful post I was so moved as to take a look on your profile page so we might become buddies.Which one in the pic is you ?
Mrr T said:
The posts you mention started with SR7492 suggesting the IDF where deliberately targeting hospitals and wanting others to provide evidence the missiles where there. I then asked him to provide evidence the missile where not there.
So actually SR7492 was accusing Israel of a crime and wanted evidence of their innocence. I asked for evidence of their guilt.
Allnighter then started an analogy about whiskey bottles in his garden. I suggested the analogy was not appropriate since he would know what was happening in his garden. So the analogy worked better if the whisky bottle was in some one else’s garden.
My argument was that since neither of us had access to evidence neither of us could provide supporting evidence.
So let’s be clear there is no connection between your comment and what was actually happened.
Sorry, that's a no no. You're supposed to maintain the construction of my (and ultimately your) original parsing. You said it was a far better way of handling the points made in a discussion. Now you've gone and changed the method you insisted upon in the first place.So actually SR7492 was accusing Israel of a crime and wanted evidence of their innocence. I asked for evidence of their guilt.
Allnighter then started an analogy about whiskey bottles in his garden. I suggested the analogy was not appropriate since he would know what was happening in his garden. So the analogy worked better if the whisky bottle was in some one else’s garden.
My argument was that since neither of us had access to evidence neither of us could provide supporting evidence.
So let’s be clear there is no connection between your comment and what was actually happened.
Could it be that by breaking my parsing into chunks, you're using another ploy to avoid addressing my substantive points? Again. Can I see a pattern developing? It's a bit like your saying you wouldn't engage with me then coming back again...and again. I have to say you're very consistent in your utter inconsistency, it tends to make me think you don't think things through...
You still don't get the whisky thing, do you? You told allnighter that it was his job to 'prove' that there were no whisky bottles in his neighbour's garden, not your job to prove they were actually there. You used the inability to provide proof of non-existence as justification for Israel's actions in bombing civilians. I'm sorry, but even at the time both allnighter and I took you to pieces; it's completely barmy and you made yourself look a fool by suggesting it.
Let's repeat another example for clarity:
Judge Dredd - Mrr T, are there arms stashed in your neighbours garden?
Mrr T - I don't know.
Judge Dredd - Sorry, that's not good enough. Please prove there are no bombs or I will be forced to blow you to bits.
Mrr T - I am unable to prove there are no bombs in my neighbours garden, he says he will shoot me if I try looking.
Judge Dredd - Sorry, that's just not good enough. Would you prefer the tank shell or an RPG..? I'm doing a special on RPG's this week.
Yes, I've read Steyn, I read the book I referred to and a number of articles. They make me feel dirty. Last time I told you about "The Protocols", this time, why not look up "The Yellow Peril" - it's another example of racist right-wing nut-jobs using scare tactics to incite hatred. Steyn is no different. For all his writing skills, he's an unpleasant racist.
Anyway, I hate to criticise your understanding of English again, but saying I have "read Steyn" is not the same as saying "I have read all of Steyn". I have never claimed to have read all of Steyn. Have you read all of Steyn?
Anyway, let's do another example for clarity...
I have read both "MansField Park" and "Sense and Sensibilty". I have not read "Pride and Prejudice" or any of the other titles in Jane Austen's oeuvre. Even so, this allows me to say that "I have read Jane Austen". I have not read all of Jane Austen, but enough to to say "I have read Jane Austen" and have a pretty well formed view as to her works. (i.e. I'm pretty sure she didn't turn to science fiction in her old age but I stand to be corrected).
By a similar token, you call me a left-wing nutter regularly. Are you sure you've read enough Hegel, Feurbach, Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky and Polly Toynbee to justify that claim - or do you just sniff it in the ether across the internet?
Anyway, I hope that clarifies the use of the word "read" for you. Beyond that, I can't compensate for stupid.
As for the difference between facts and commentary, I think I know the difference. What you fail to understand is the concept of debate. Whenever I dismantle a point of yours, you divert attention from the substantive points of my argument and respond not with reasoned argument but with comments like "you have no idea about free speech". But you say this without backing them up with proof of why I have no idea.
Without a clear exposition of the flaws in my argument, just saying I'm wrong doesn't win. Similarly calling me left-wing without providing evidence as to why is just name calling. It turns adult debate into a childish bout of "yes it is - no it isn't". (And, I think, that's why allnighter suggested you were a troll; not without with some justification).
Pleading that I took your words out of context won't wash. You said you understood the complexities of the Six Day War through your extensive reading. Your reading turned out to be the adult equivalent of a Ladybird book and one written by an ultra-zionist ex Israeli Ambassador. If you think that's rounded research, I'm Shirley Temple.
In summation: You can't argue logically, you don't understand plain English and you use childish ploys to avoid substantive issues. If I was you, I'd stop digging.
Scuffers said:
Transmitter Man said:
Here's a suggestion.
Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Great idea, issue us which country would volunteer to do the job and no matter who it was, Hamas would just target them.Hamas allows an International force to go find, inspect and demolish ALL tunnels into Israel & Egypt.
Hamas gives up all their stockpile of Russian, Syrian & Iranian weapons and ammunition.
Every single person & vehicle is searched, inside, outside & underneath going in and out of Gaza.
Sorry for the wait sir.
Because then Israel will genuinely try to make peace, stop building settlements, stop building checkpoints, and stop "targeted assassinations"
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