Discussion
NoNeed said:
Does anybody have a solution to the problem?
I ask as I have not yet heard one that is even remotely achievable and the same argument has been going on since long before I was even born in 1971. It is easy to say they are sending rockets so we have to retaliate, but they see it differently are sending rockets to land that's theirs and if the Israeli's weren't there it wouldn't be a problem. The whole argument has been going round in circles for as long as I remember.
Logically I would say partitioning the land and making them both share is the only reasonable solution.I ask as I have not yet heard one that is even remotely achievable and the same argument has been going on since long before I was even born in 1971. It is easy to say they are sending rockets so we have to retaliate, but they see it differently are sending rockets to land that's theirs and if the Israeli's weren't there it wouldn't be a problem. The whole argument has been going round in circles for as long as I remember.
Countdown said:
Logically I would say partitioning the land and making them both share is the only reasonable solution.
Yes, but the devil is in the detail. As the British found out in India, drawing a line on the map can have fatal consequences. Trying to create two equable states in that region - where one does not have a huge advantages over the other, eg in water resources - will be a hard, hard, job.
audidoody said:
I came across the following from a friend of a friend's Facebook page. It is written by a girl who is training to be an ambulance driver in Israel. I don't expect it to change the views of anyone who has already made up their mind about who is to blame for this conflict. But it offers a small morsel of food for thought about the reality of what the media is not covering. I don't think it needs any further comment or conclusion.
"Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
It's shocking that somebody can post that and not acknowledge, even once, the conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Not even mentioning Israeli policy on building more Settlements, more roads, and more checkpoints and just even wondering whether that "may" be part of the reason why peace hasn't been achieved."Today I experienced something that I know will stay with me for the rest of my life.
As my ambulance headed to a family home, with the army, to tell a mother, father, son and daughter that their son/brother had been killed this morning in Gaza, I felt sickened and nauseous. Still, I believed deep down that despite the trauma I would witness, I would stay strong and handle it, as I have experienced personal loss. But no words can describe the sight and sound of such raw and heart-wrenching cries of pain from people who suddenly realise that they will never see/hug/kiss/smell/touch/look at/laugh with their loved one again in this world.
As I scanned this small living room, I tried to picture the love, laughter and memories shared between these people in this room that was now so full of pain that the air felt thick and dark. I looked up at the photographs on the wall, at wedding photos spread across the walls, only to be told that this man was not only a son and brother, but a husband and father too.
I started to question how this could be occurring within these four walls, whilst outside children were still playing on the streets, buses were still running, babies were still being born and life was still moving? Was this not strong enough to shake the world?
And then I thought about some of the posts I have seen on facebook as of late, and on the news, statements from respected political figures and role model celebrities who publicly condemn Israel and go as far as describing Zionism as racism/nazism and portray Israel as a murderous state who roll in the blood of the poor, innocent, tortured souls of Gaza. I wondered how a world full of supposedly rational human beings could be so blind.
And then it occurred to me that this raw, incomprehensible pain I had witnessed today, surrounded by a loving network of support was occurring also in Gaza. The difference was, there is no support or security there, on the contrary people's lives are being treated by their leaders as disposable - they are being used as pawns for Hamas' personal agenda. Their houses/schools/places of worship/graveyards/kindergartens are being utilised as missile launch pads, and whilst the Israelis warn these civilians (with leaflets and text messages) to leave their houses so as not to be harmed, these vicious animals instruct them to stand on the rooftops to 'protect their houses'. In the meantime, they await with cameras at the ready - snapping shots of these men, women and children who they have placed in the firing line, catching these gem shots and sending them straight to the media. They value these lives so little that they even have been caught using fake pictures to boost their cause.
All of this is simply for one reason and one reason only. They have such a deep rooted desire for the death of Jews (as stated in the official Hamas charter), that this means more than the very lives of their own people. This is not about protection from a superior, militant Israeli regime. Hamas officials have been known to send their family members to Israel for medical treatment in times of need. They are secure in the knowledge that the Israelis will treat them in their hospitals, without prejudice, and in the meantime these same people plot ways to try and obliterate Israel and the Jewish people, regardless of the cost.
I have never felt more sad for such unthinkable loss to so many human beings and for such evil within humanity. But I have never felt more proud of my country, Israel, and never been so sure that this is the place I belong and must end up. It doesn't matter how much of the world hate us, or what anyone says.. We will not die for the sake of international sympathy, we are a people that value life too much to play with fire, and we will not apologise for that - instead we will continue to thrive and set an example to the world of how much can be accomplished and contributed, in a time scale that can only be described as miraculous, whilst simultaneously under constant attack from our enemies and international scrutiny.
I pray that Hamas, the evil perpetrators of this horrendous crime to humanity are stopped and that this impossible suffering ends for everyone soon. May G-d protect our boys in the IDF and bring them home soon to their families."
Whilst she feels unthinkable loss for the death of each IDF soldier I imagine the relatives of the 26 members of the Abu Jame family feel a similar loss.
Countdown said:
It's shocking that somebody can post that and not acknowledge, even once, the conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Not even mentioning Israeli policy on building more Settlements, more roads, and more checkpoints and just even wondering whether that "may" be part of the reason why peace hasn't been achieved.
Whilst she feels unthinkable loss for the death of each IDF soldier I imagine the relatives of the 26 members of the Abu Jame family feel a similar loss.
Well said Whilst she feels unthinkable loss for the death of each IDF soldier I imagine the relatives of the 26 members of the Abu Jame family feel a similar loss.
Countdown said:
It's shocking that somebody can post that and not acknowledge, even once, the conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Not even mentioning Israeli policy on building more Settlements, more roads, and more checkpoints and just even wondering whether that "may" be part of the reason why peace hasn't been achieved.
Whilst she feels unthinkable loss for the death of each IDF soldier I imagine the relatives of the 26 members of the Abu Jame family feel a similar loss.
Why would she, she is Israeli!Whilst she feels unthinkable loss for the death of each IDF soldier I imagine the relatives of the 26 members of the Abu Jame family feel a similar loss.
In 1940 would my Granddad have written "oh the Germans have killed my wife with a bomb, but never mind, we declared war on them, we crippled the with huge war reparations, we imposed the harsh Treaty of Versailles, so they are allowed to kill her".
Get real mate! In war you see it from one side, YOURS! Oh and from experience, god is ALWAYS on your side.
Grumfutock said:
Why would she, she is Israeli!
In 1940 would my Granddad have written "oh the Germans have killed my wife with a bomb, but never mind, we declared war on them, we crippled the with huge war reparations, we imposed the harsh Treaty of Versailles, so they are allowed to kill her".
Get real mate! In war you see it from one side, YOURS! Oh and from experience, god is ALWAYS on your side.
If we still occupied Germany after 60 years and imposed upon them the restrictions that are applied in the WB and Gaza would you be surprised if they fired rockets at us? And then bleat about how each british life was precious and we didnt care about what the Rest of the World thought about us?In 1940 would my Granddad have written "oh the Germans have killed my wife with a bomb, but never mind, we declared war on them, we crippled the with huge war reparations, we imposed the harsh Treaty of Versailles, so they are allowed to kill her".
Get real mate! In war you see it from one side, YOURS! Oh and from experience, god is ALWAYS on your side.
Would it not be more sensible, more productive, more human to do what we did and negotiate a peace?
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Why would she, she is Israeli!
In 1940 would my Granddad have written "oh the Germans have killed my wife with a bomb, but never mind, we declared war on them, we crippled the with huge war reparations, we imposed the harsh Treaty of Versailles, so they are allowed to kill her".
Get real mate! In war you see it from one side, YOURS! Oh and from experience, god is ALWAYS on your side.
If we still occupied Germany after 60 years and imposed upon them the restrictions that are applied in the WB and Gaza would you be surprised if they fired rockets at us? And then bleat about how each british life was precious and we didnt care about what the Rest of the World thought about us?In 1940 would my Granddad have written "oh the Germans have killed my wife with a bomb, but never mind, we declared war on them, we crippled the with huge war reparations, we imposed the harsh Treaty of Versailles, so they are allowed to kill her".
Get real mate! In war you see it from one side, YOURS! Oh and from experience, god is ALWAYS on your side.
Would it not be more sensible, more productive, more human to do what we did and negotiate a peace?
And where did I say any of that? I said she is Israeli so she wrote that from an Israeli point of view. Also you would find that in a war you tend not to think about the other sides point of view. Funny old thing that.
Point 2:
Yea not occupying Germany in 1919 and allowing them autonomy worked really well didn't it! No wait....HITLER....DOH! And out of mild curiosity, when did we negotiate a peace with Germany? Rather sure we defeated them both times.
Grumfutock said:
And where did I say any of that? I said she is Israeli so she wrote that from an Israeli point of view. Also you would find that in a war you tend not to think about the other sides point of view. Funny old thing that.
If you did think about the other point of view it might actually help to achieve peace. Just a thought......[the fact that she doesn't see the other side at all speaks volumes]Grumfutock said:
Yea not occupying Germany in 1919 and allowing them autonomy worked really well didn't it! No wait....HITLER....DOH! And out of mild curiosity, when did we negotiate a peace with Germany? Rather sure we defeated them both times.
You perhaps need to look in a bit more detail into the reasons behind WW2.Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
And where did I say any of that? I said she is Israeli so she wrote that from an Israeli point of view. Also you would find that in a war you tend not to think about the other sides point of view. Funny old thing that.
If you did think about the other point of view it might actually help to achieve peace. Just a thought......[the fact that she doesn't see the other side at all speaks volumes]Grumfutock said:
Yea not occupying Germany in 1919 and allowing them autonomy worked really well didn't it! No wait....HITLER....DOH! And out of mild curiosity, when did we negotiate a peace with Germany? Rather sure we defeated them both times.
You perhaps need to look in a bit more detail into the reasons behind WW2.Oh and I know the reasons for WW2 and it wasn't because we "negotiated" a peace.
Countdown said:
If we still occupied Germany after 60 years and imposed upon them the restrictions that are applied in the WB and Gaza would you be surprised if they fired rockets at us? And then bleat about how each british life was precious and we didnt care about what the Rest of the World thought about us?
Would it not be more sensible, more productive, more human to do what we did and negotiate a peace?
Would we do that if the regime elected there was openly implacably devoted to the idea we should be wiped out, with a like minded partner itching to deliver it the means to do so once we allow it?Would it not be more sensible, more productive, more human to do what we did and negotiate a peace?
otolith said:
Would we do that if the regime elected there was openly implacably devoted to the idea we should be wiped out, with a like minded partner itching to deliver it the means to do so once we allow it?
Fatah has accepted Israel's right to exist. From reading somewhere I think even Hamas know that Israel isn't going to go away any time soon. Most of the countries around Israel have also made peace or have been willing to enter into peace negotiations.To be honest I think it's a handy fallback excuse for Israel to avoid making any meaningless concessions. And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Countdown said:
Fatah has accepted Israel's right to exist. From reading somewhere I think even Hamas know that Israel isn't going to go away any time soon. Most of the countries around Israel have also made peace or have been willing to enter into peace negotiations.
To be honest I think it's a handy fallback excuse for Israel to avoid making any meaningless concessions. And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Go East, young man, go East.To be honest I think it's a handy fallback excuse for Israel to avoid making any meaningless concessions. And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Grumfutock said:
Marxists? Really? Drug dealers and gangster more like. So it is all over in NI is it? 24th July weapons find, 24th July knee capping, 25th ammo find. Yea it is all finished there because the people say so. Power to the people.
Good luck with that
England is free of guns and gangsterism then?Good luck with that
Countdown said:
Fatah has accepted Israel's right to exist. From reading somewhere I think even Hamas know that Israel isn't going to go away any time soon. Most of the countries around Israel have also made peace or have been willing to enter into peace negotiations.
To be honest I think it's a handy fallback excuse for Israel to avoid making any meaningless concessions. And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Perhaps Hamas needs a new charter?To be honest I think it's a handy fallback excuse for Israel to avoid making any meaningless concessions. And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Countdown said:
And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Seriously? You really believe that. You poor deluded fool.
Israel has had nukes for years and has never used them. If Iran got nukes this afternoon, well let's just say I wouldn't go buying any green bananas.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Countdown said:
And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Seriously? You really believe that. You poor deluded fool.
Israel has had nukes for years and has never used them. If Iran got nukes this afternoon, well let's just say I wouldn't go buying any green bananas.
So much wrong.
Maybe it's you that's deluded.
I never buy green bananas anyway.
Hilts said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Countdown said:
And, if you're referring to Iran, they want nuclear weapons for the same reason Israel has them. And they're as likely to use them as Israel is.
Seriously? You really believe that. You poor deluded fool.
Israel has had nukes for years and has never used them. If Iran got nukes this afternoon, well let's just say I wouldn't go buying any green bananas.
So much wrong.
Maybe it's you that's deluded.
I never buy green bananas anyway.
I'd feel very uncomfortable if I were Israeli and Iranian religious lunatics had the bomb.
Art0ir said:
Grumfutock said:
Marxists? Really? Drug dealers and gangster more like. So it is all over in NI is it? 24th July weapons find, 24th July knee capping, 25th ammo find. Yea it is all finished there because the people say so. Power to the people.
Good luck with that
England is free of guns and gangsterism then?Good luck with that
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