Israeli

[Pappa Lurve]

Countdown said:

Pappa Lurve said:

Countdown, let us try this again - ISRAEL CANNOT OPEN THAT BLOCKADE. Hamas knows it, Israel knows it, the UN etc, as it in Egypt. So no matter what they do to Israel, it will have zero effect on that. So again, explain to me please how it is possible to fulfill the basic offered condition of a ceasefire by Hamas which is to open the egyptian blockade as well? Then, lets move onto Hamas offer of a ceasefire in which they themselve acknowledged they ignored.We can get to that later though - again, how will attacking Israel and demanding ISRAEL open the EGYPTIAN blockade. You know, the blockade on your little maps in EGYPT!!!!! Perhaps you could explain as you seem to know about it, what happened when Hamas and the PLO / PLA attacked Eygpt? I assume that will factor into your understanding of why they hitt one and not the other?

And again, just to be 101% clear as I have now asked you this several times - How can Israel open a border they dont own, and why do Hamas link that to even a ceasefire when it is blatantly and impossible demand?

I hadn't realised you'd asked me several times so apologies for missing the question.

The answer is fairly simple; the blockade (both elements ) can be lifted quite easily if the US tells the Israelis and the Egyptians to. Whoever pays the piper calls the tune. However I doubt Barack is willing to risk political capital to do this in the short term so I guess it will take at least a few more thousand deaths before the US decides to get its hand dirty.

However, to some degree it's irrelevant whether or not Egypt agrees to remove its blockade, that's a side-story and a handy diversion. If Israel removes its blockade (both the land and sea aspects) the Egyptian one becomes superfluous.

Let me ask you a question; if the Egyptian blockade is th stumbling block, why doesn't Israel say "Fine, we'll remove ours, but we can't do anything about the Egyptian one." That way, it's tried it's best and the fault lies elsewhere.

Because HAMAS have stated for years they will attack israel until the EGTION block is down. Not get round it, not avoid it, nothing. SO its not an option. Plus,the block has been up by Egypt for years under both pro and anti-west regimes. So if you really think all that needs is the US to call Egypt,block comes down and Israel is safe,or Eygpt, with respect, you don;t know the history. Or why Egypt blockaded it. It absolutely essential to the situation. Again, at the risk of redundancy,Israel cannot remove it, Hamas will not shooting at Israel until it is removed and Egypt has made it very clear it wont open it.

If it was that simple, don;t you think it would have been done years ago?!

If you didn;t notice my question before then thank you genuinely for then answering it and I apologise for drawing attention to your lack of answer forcefully. And I know that sounds sarcastic but its honestly meant chap!

[Countdown]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Countdown said:

How many Gazans have been killed by Egyptian military action? That might explain why the rockets are onl been fired in one direction.

How many Egyptians towns have been bombarded with rockets? Perhaps this might explain why the military action is only coming from one direction?

How many Egyptian settlements have been built on Palestinians land? How many Settlers-only roads and Egyptian - only roads are there in the WB? It might explain why the rockets are only fired in one direction?

[Countdown]

Pappa Lurve said:

Because HAMAS have stated for years they will attack israel until the EGTION block is down. Not get round it, not avoid it, nothing. SO its not an option.

Could you provide a link for this? I know that Hamas isn't happy with Egypt since Al-Sissi took control, I wasn't aware that they had previously threatened to attack Israel because of the Egyptian blockade

Pappa Lurve said:

Plus,the block has been up by Egypt for years under both pro and anti-west regimes. So if you really think all that needs is the US to call Egypt,block comes down and Israel is safe,or Eygpt, with respect, you don;t know the history. Or why Egypt blockaded it. It absolutely essential to the situation. Again, at the risk of redundancy,Israel cannot remove it, Hamas will not shooting at Israel until it is removed and Egypt has made it very clear it wont open it.

Some background info about why the blockades are in place

http://amptoons.com/blog/2010/06/09/why-does-egypt...

http://mideastafrica.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/...

To put it simply Egypt doesn't like Hamas because of the Muslim Brotherhood (those guys that helped overthrow Mubarak, won a democratic election, and were then overthrown by a military coup). The military blockade is to ensure they aren't in any position to interfere with the Egyptian dictatorship any time soon.

Edited by Countdown on Monday 28th July 23:58

[allnighter]

Pappa Lurve said:

I apologise. Kindly explain your opinion and why it has almost no comparison to what I have actually seen with my own eyes? Perhaps you have indeed been there? I have said the same about rocket attacks.I have not defended Israel or Hamas at all if you read my posts. However, when people state facts that are simply untrue, or that living under the rockets no big thing, without ever having done so or seen the facts themselves then I would suggest their opinion has a far less solid base than someone who has actually been to both sides and areas, many, many times over many years. But hey ho, maybe not.

Have you been to the Gaza?Where you there as an undercover investigator, perhaps pretending to be a Palestinian? Have you experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian? Have you seen the kind of treatment your likes get and how it feels to be considered as a second class citizen trapped in a massive prison? Have you seen what it's like to be on the receiving end of the IDF heavy bombardment? Have you experienced your house, your street being reduced to rubble? Have you experienced what it's like to hold your daughter in your arms with half her head blown out by a bomb? Have you been to a hospital to find the body of your headless son barely recognisable? Have you experienced what it's like to discover a whole concrete building has collapsed on your sister chopping her body in half and you are desperate to find the other half so you can give her a decent burial? Have you thought about the rage that might take hold of you for losing 18 members of your loved ones overnight?

So Pappa Lurve spare us the PR Bullst that's trotted out by the pro-Israel camp on here, eat some humble pie and stop patronising people here just because you travelled to Israel. It does not make you an expert, nor does it give you a full picture. You still have a lot to learn pal.

[Mr Snap]

Jimbeaux said:

...if one lives in a tiny landlocked nation.....

One wouldn't actually be living in Israel because Israel isn't landlocked.

But it's always nice to get advice from someone who clearly has an in depth knowledge of the region in question.




Un fking believable.

[Jimbeaux]

Mr Snap said:

Jimbeaux said:

...if one lives in a tiny landlocked nation.....

One wouldn't actually be living in Israel because Israel isn't landlocked.

But it's always nice to get advice from someone who clearly has an in depth knowledge of the region in question.




Un fking believable.

Seeing how tiny they are, the one side exposed to water is a aquatic body extending so far along the "Brother nations'" borders that landlocked is pretty damn accurate for practical reasons. Thanks however for your geographic micro focus, it is obviously 100% relevant to the political situation that is this cluster fk.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 29th July 02:48

[Jimbeaux]

This is historic, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, The Arab League and even the PA has agreed to the Egyptian deal. only Hamas shot it down because it did not meet their demands. The PA cannot get that scum Hamas from around their neck, that cannot even speak for themselves. John Kerry stuck his nose in and screwed up this possibly going through. The PA even was angered by his meddling as they want the deal as well. I love how a tiny few of you on here cannot see the obvious. Instead of aiming your anger at Hamas for sacrificing the Palestinians for their personal agenda, you lash out at the Israelis. It is becoming obvious you few's true loyalties seem to lie with Hamas themselves. Good job, supporting subhuman scum such as that.

[Colonial]

So those peaceful Israelis are now sending death threats because some pop star tweeted support for the Palestinian cause.

Who has the moral high ground on this one again?

[exocet ape]

Jimbeaux,

Just a quick one, what do Irgun, Stern Gang, King David Hotel, Bernadotte mean to you...

[Silent1]

This is interesting reading, it's a document sent to people likely to appear on the media supporting israel, it's typically for american based people but it's still worth the read as it gives an interesting insight into how anything can be spun:
Israel Global Language Dictionary

[kitz]

In the Independent today Robert Fisk makes the statement
'Dozens of British supporters of Israel serve in the Israeli army'
I think that on their return their passports should be shredded,
and they should be deported to the apartheid state .
We have quite enough murderers of our own , if they want to fight for Israel let them live there .

[Mr Snap]

Jimbeaux said:

Seeing how tiny they are, the one side exposed to water is a aquatic body extending so far along the "Brother nations'" borders that landlocked is pretty damn accurate for practical reasons. Thanks however for your geographic micro focus, it is obviously 100% relevant to the political situation that is this cluster fk.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 29th July 02:48

Then how do you explain how Israel, despite extending 'so far along the 'brother nations', is managing to maintain an effective sea blockade on Gaza. Israel's navy is the most feared and effective in the region.

Geography, schmeography. It's the micro development of your brain that's the problem here, your ill educated contributions add nothing.

[JensenA]

Pappa Lurve said:

JensenA said:

Pappa Lurve said:

JensenA said:

It's quite ironic that the Israelis are adopting the same tactics that the Nazi's used against the French resistance movement in WW2. The Nazis destroyed whole towns and villages to retaliate against the deaths of German soldiers killed by the resistance, in an attempt to turn the French people against the resistance movement. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. The only way the Israelis can win over the Palestinian people i- which is the only way to beat Hammas - is to stop building settlements and forcibly evicting Palestinians from the homes they have lived in for hundreds of years. If they begin to treat the ordinary Palestinians with respect, then the ordinary Palestine people would turn against Hammas. The ordinary people may not agree with Hammas, but supporting, or having some sympathy to them, is the only way that have of retaliating against a nation that treats them with contempt.

Edited by JensenA on Monday 28th July 11:11

Come back when you have something of value to add. Lets be clear here, should Israel wish to destroy the Plaestinians wholesale it is not exactly hard to do. And for those who comp`re it to camps - I have physically been there over a period of many years. It is not exactly Monaco but II do find it curious how people who have nbever been, never seen it and largely know littlle aabout it can feel they are qualified to say what it is like there.

I did add something of value, it's called an opinion, and you are perfectly entitled to oppose it. However in all your all you do is repeat yourself by criticising anyone who has not been to the area in person, does not share your opinion and dares to criticise Israel.


Edited : ipad induced spelling and grammatical errors.

Edited by JensenA on Monday 28th July 20:02

I apologise. Kindly explain your opinion and why it has almost no comparison to what I have actually seen with my own eyes? Perhaps you have indeed been there? I have said the same about rocket attacks.I have not defended Israel or Hamas at all if you read my posts. However, when people state facts that are simply untrue, or that living under the rockets no big thing, without ever having done so or seen the facts themselves then I would suggest their opinion has a far less solid base than someone who has actually been to both sides and areas, many, many times over many years. But hey ho, maybe not.

I think I explained my opinion quite clearly. That it is quite ironic that the tactics the Israelis are using, whist perhaps not as blatant as the Nazis tactic of delibarately killing civilians to the get the message that "this is a punishment for supporting and harbouring Resistance fighters",is in essence the same tactic employed by the Israelis. OK the Israelis do provide some kind of warning to the Palestinians people, but it cannot be denied that they are not overly concerned if Palestinian civilians die. The message to the Palestinian people is clear, stop harbouring Hammas ans the attacks will stop.
I am not denying that Hammas are an extreme Islamic terrorist organization, with an avowed intent of destroying Israel. But I can understand why the ordinary Palestinias tolerate them. It is because it is their only means of retaliating agains a nation that continues to bulldoze Palestinian peoples our of the homes and lands that they have lived on and farmed for hundreds of years.
So I have an 'opinion' that the tactics the Israelis employ against Hammas is ironically the same as that used by the Naziz in WW2. And I have an opinion that it is understandable how the Palestinians tolerate Hammas. But these opinions are based on facts, and I do not need to travel to the area to be aware of these facts.
My opinion is that if the Israelis treated the Palestinians with respect, stopped bulldozing them out of their homes to build new settlemts in their place, and started instead to actively help the Paestinian's, then the ordinary Palestinian people, whom I believe simply want to live in peace, and have a happy normal life for themselves, and a future for their children, would soon turn against Hammas if it continued to attack the nation that was actively helping and supporting it.
You however seem to support the Israelis no matter what they do, in your eyes they can do no wrong, they are simply defending themselves against an extreme Islamic terrorist organization.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

allnighter said:

ave you been to the Gaza?Where you there as an undercover investigator, perhaps pretending to be a Palestinian? Have you experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian? Have you seen the kind of treatment your likes get and how it feels to be considered as a second class citizen trapped in a massive prison? Have you seen what it's like to be on the receiving end of the IDF heavy bombardment? Have you experienced your house, your street being reduced to rubble? Have you experienced what it's like to hold your daughter in your arms with half her head blown out by a bomb? Have you been to a hospital to find the body of your headless son barely recognisable? Have you experienced what it's like to discover a whole concrete building has collapsed on your sister chopping her body in half and you are desperate to find the other half so you can give her a decent burial? Have you thought about the rage that might take hold of you for losing 18 members of your loved ones overnight?

Have you seen the aftermath of a bus bombing? A deliberate strike against civilians, as opposed to civilians getting caught up in an attempt to hit militants. I think you'll find that headless Israeli children look pretty similar to headless Palestinian ones.

Fro the record, I've never been to Israel or Gaza. I've also never been to the south pole. But I know it's fking cold.

[Colonial]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

allnighter said:

ave you been to the Gaza?Where you there as an undercover investigator, perhaps pretending to be a Palestinian? Have you experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian? Have you seen the kind of treatment your likes get and how it feels to be considered as a second class citizen trapped in a massive prison? Have you seen what it's like to be on the receiving end of the IDF heavy bombardment? Have you experienced your house, your street being reduced to rubble? Have you experienced what it's like to hold your daughter in your arms with half her head blown out by a bomb? Have you been to a hospital to find the body of your headless son barely recognisable? Have you experienced what it's like to discover a whole concrete building has collapsed on your sister chopping her body in half and you are desperate to find the other half so you can give her a decent burial? Have you thought about the rage that might take hold of you for losing 18 members of your loved ones overnight?

Have you seen the aftermath of a bus bombing? A deliberate strike against civilians, as opposed to civilians getting caught up in an attempt to hit militants. I think you'll find that headless Israeli children look pretty similar to headless Palestinian ones.

Fro the record, I've never been to Israel or Gaza. I've also never been to the south pole. But I know it's fking cold.

Both of these posts perfectly show why this will be going on for much longer yet.

Both sides are victims of the actions of their leaders and certain groups that want to prolong the tension for their own ideological gains.

There is no side that can claim any form of high ground. Just civillians on both sides suffering.

[RedTrident]

Jimbeaux said:

This is historic, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, The Arab League and even the PA has agreed to the Egyptian deal. only Hamas shot it down because it did not meet their demands. The PA cannot get that scum Hamas from around their neck, that cannot even speak for themselves. John Kerry stuck his nose in and screwed up this possibly going through. The PA even was angered by his meddling as they want the deal as well. I love how a tiny few of you on here cannot see the obvious. Instead of aiming your anger at Hamas for sacrificing the Palestinians for their personal agenda, you lash out at the Israelis. It is becoming obvious you few's true loyalties seem to lie with Hamas themselves. Good job, supporting subhuman scum such as that.

Give over, no one in this thread has at any point supported Hamas or been anti Semitic. Don't get me wrong, certain posters have regularly thrown these accusations around in the hope that they can stifle debate and distract away from the actions of a state that are employing tactics comparable to the Nazis to kill women and children.

As for the obvious, we all see it, an ongoing avoidance by Israel to create a viable Palestinian state and the end of Settlement building. I see today's news is that Israel have blown up the tv stations to make it more difficult for them to report, and the port and power station also. This isn't about attacking Hamas, rather about punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas.

[allnighter]

Jimbeaux said:

Seeing how tiny they are, the one side exposed to water is a aquatic body extending so far along the "Brother nations'" borders that landlocked is pretty damn accurate for practical reasons. Thanks however for your geographic micro focus, it is obviously 100% relevant to the political situation that is this cluster fk.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 29th July 02:48

To help you out here's a compiled list of landlocked countries, and Israel is NOT one of them:
Afghanistan
Andorra
Armenia
Austria
Azerbaijan[a]
Belarus
Bhutan
Bolivia
Botswana
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Czech Republic
Ethiopia
Hungary
Kazakhstan
Kosovo
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lesotho
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Macedonia
Malawi
Mali
Moldova
Mongolia
Nagorno-Karabakh
Nepal
Niger
Paraguay
Rwanda
San Marino
Serbia
Slovakia
South Ossetia
South Sudan
Swaziland
Switzerland
Tajikistan
Transnistria
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Uzbekistan
Zambia
Zimbabwe.
As for the absurd and ridiculous notion that you adopt in this forum against those who deplore the deaths of innocent Palestinian new-born/unborn babies, toddlers, mums dads, grandparents, hospital patients, doctors and nurses as a direct result of careless Israeli air, land and sea attacks on densely populated areas in Gaza, as being Hamas sympathisers without showing a shred of evidence to support your silly claim, just shows your select bias, but don't worry , you're up against stiff competition from the Israel apologists camp for silly comments.
Those of us who refuse to dance to Israel's lies and propaganda have also condemned Hamas, their lies and propaganda, and their targeting of civilians. So unless you provide evidence of the contrary Jim Boy, try and think before you hit the 'enter' button please.Please, pretty please with sugar on top.

Lots of love and kisses...

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Colonial said:

Both of these posts perfectly show why this will be going on for much longer yet.

Both sides are victims of the actions of their leaders and certain groups that want to prolong the tension for their own ideological gains.

There is no side that can claim any form of high ground. Just civillians on both sides suffering.

I agree. However, looking back over this thread, those like me who have some sympathy with the Israeli viewpoint are also very critical of Israel and many of their actions over the years. And can see the Palestinian side of things and can appreciate their frustrations.

But those who support the Palestinians tend to see the whole issue as black and white, Palestinian goodies v the Israeli baddies. So much so that they distort or ignore historical facts and seek to mitigate stuff like rockets being fired as minor irritations and not a serious issue. It's quite staggering how warped some of their views are, imho.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Liechtenstein and Uzbekistan are double landlocked. The countries that surround them are also landlocked.

Useless factoid of the day.

[allnighter]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

allnighter said:

ave you been to the Gaza?Where you there as an undercover investigator, perhaps pretending to be a Palestinian? Have you experienced what it's like to be a Palestinian? Have you seen the kind of treatment your likes get and how it feels to be considered as a second class citizen trapped in a massive prison? Have you seen what it's like to be on the receiving end of the IDF heavy bombardment? Have you experienced your house, your street being reduced to rubble? Have you experienced what it's like to hold your daughter in your arms with half her head blown out by a bomb? Have you been to a hospital to find the body of your headless son barely recognisable? Have you experienced what it's like to discover a whole concrete building has collapsed on your sister chopping her body in half and you are desperate to find the other half so you can give her a decent burial? Have you thought about the rage that might take hold of you for losing 18 members of your loved ones overnight?

Have you seen the aftermath of a bus bombing? A deliberate strike against civilians, as opposed to civilians getting caught up in an attempt to hit militants. I think you'll find that headless Israeli children look pretty similar to headless Palestinian ones.

Fro the record, I've never been to Israel or Gaza. I've also never been to the south pole. But I know it's fking cold.

Where is the argument? Am I disagreeing with you? Read back my reply in THE CONTEXT of what pappa lurve has stated.According to him you need to have travelled to the South Pole to know it's cold. Absurd I know!