Israeli

[allnighter]

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Colonial said:

Both of these posts perfectly show why this will be going on for much longer yet.

Both sides are victims of the actions of their leaders and certain groups that want to prolong the tension for their own ideological gains.

There is no side that can claim any form of high ground. Just civillians on both sides suffering.

I agree. However, looking back over this thread, those like me who have some sympathy with the Israeli viewpoint are also very critical of Israel and many of their actions over the years. And can see the Palestinian side of things and can appreciate their frustrations.

But those who support the Palestinians tend to see the whole issue as black and white, Palestinian goodies v the Israeli baddies. So much so that they distort or ignore historical facts and seek to mitigate stuff like rockets being fired as minor irritations and not a serious issue. It's quite staggering how warped some of their views are, imho.

This^^^

Actually I have not seen anyone on here who fit Twig's description when defending Palestinian civilians. They were just as critical of Hamas. It's a blatant lie and it's not the first fib coming from Twigs.

If not, then accept my apologies. I am still,waiting for condemnations of Hamas however.

Are you in a lazy mode Jim? The thread is full of contributors who like me condemned Hamas (I called them a dictatorship) and their targeting of Israeli civilians with their rockets.

[allnighter]

Lost soul said:

allnighter said:

Actually , you are beyond pathetic!

HTH

You really are an offensive little man aren't you , whats up you feeling you have lost the debate and are reverting to name calling

Nah that's not name calling, that's just being truthful, and the debate is not about "losing" or "winning" in case you are a bit of a "lost soul" around here.

[Lost soul]

allnighter said:

Lost soul said:

allnighter said:

Actually , you are beyond pathetic!

HTH

You really are an offensive little man aren't you , whats up you feeling you have lost the debate and are reverting to name calling

Nah that's not name calling, that's just being truthful, and the debate is not about "losing" or "winning" in case you are a bit of a "lost soul" around here.

yes yes yes , off you go

[Mrr T]

allnighter said:

ypical Mrr T's response, provide links bla bla bla, ignoring the thrust of my argument and applying selective quoting to distort what's conveyed. Did you fully understand what is conveyed or do you select part of what I said and try to twist it to your suitability?

Since I did not ask for any links or do more than quote what you posted, difficult to see how I distorted your quotes.

allnighter said:

We are fully aware of the half a million Jews killed, Google can provide those statistics.So stop being daft and obtuse and see the similarities between confining Jews to a ghetto, just like Palestinians were confined to an open prison called Gaza, treating Jews like scum, just like Palestinians are treated like scum, Jews smuggling arms, just like Palestinians are doing the same, Jews building tunnels, just like Palestinians are doing in Gaza, Jews mounting an armed resistance against a well armed German army , just like Palestinian Hamas operatives are doing at the moment against a far superior military, Navy, and Air force.

Now you do understand the concept of 'resistance' don't you?Like shooting your enemy down, lobbing missiles, creating terror, sabotage, destruction etc...
When you are surrounded by a superior and an overwhelming force, resistance can take all sorts of shapes and forms.

The main point you missed, either deliberately or unintentionally, and I suspect it's the former TBH, is that from a humanitarian point of you (and I could be wasting my time discussing this with you anyway) is that Israel, a democratic state, should hold better values and ethics knowing the history of Jews and how they were persecuted and were mistreated by the Germans. They should never replicate tactics like the ones I listed above, blockading nearly 2 Million people, provoking an uprising, creating terrible conditions for Palestinians to result to desperate measures like joining radicals and taking up arms, and bombing the cr@ap out of them like Palestinian lives are worthless, and trying to legitimise it by claiming self-defence in the interest of national security, just like the Germans were doing with their lies and propaganda against Jews. Israel should know better its values and morals, and not trample over them and forget the fate of 6 millions who died a horrible death. You want to quantify and compare statistics to support your twisted agenda and justify the current campaign of state sponsored terrorism, I do not! Statistics like that mean fk all if the leaders of a nation of a previously persecuted race are indulging in persectuing another race employing more or less the same tactics (as listed above) and "fine-tuning" these tactics in line (or just above) with what is "acceptable" to Western media and Israel's backers.

Now go and stick your fingers in your ears and shout lalala, regurgitate the same cr@ap and nonesense to support your pro-Israel bias and pretend nobody is disagreeing with you.

So if I can summarise my understanding of your argument.

You argue:
1. Israel made the population of Gaza live in a ghetto and therefore they have a right to fight against Israel.
2. This is similar to the situation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto when they took up arms against the Germans.
3 Therefore the Israeli are similar to the Germans.

I will not argue against the first point. I may not completely agree but but we are all entitled to our opinions.

The problem I have is with your second argument. The Germans has started to move Polish Jews into Warsaw from 1940.

Just before the deportation of 250,000 to 300,000 in 1942 the Germans assured the leaders of the Jews in Warsaw that deportations where to resettlements in the East. The leaders resistance in Warsaw voted not to resist the deportation so long as they where only moved to labour camps.

The uprising only started in Mid 1943 when it was clear to the resistance leaders leaders that the deportations where to death camps and the deportations started again.

I would argue the uprising in Warsaw was about the deportation of Jews to death camps not about living in a ghetto.

As for moral authority I ask, as other have, what should Israel do about the missiles?

Edited by Mrr T on Tuesday 29th July 15:34

Edited by Mrr T on Tuesday 29th July 15:37

[jonby]

Jimbeaux said:

RedTrident said:

Jimbeaux said:

This is historic, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, The Arab League and even the PA has agreed to the Egyptian deal. only Hamas shot it down because it did not meet their demands. The PA cannot get that scum Hamas from around their neck, that cannot even speak for themselves. John Kerry stuck his nose in and screwed up this possibly going through. The PA even was angered by his meddling as they want the deal as well. I love how a tiny few of you on here cannot see the obvious. Instead of aiming your anger at Hamas for sacrificing the Palestinians for their personal agenda, you lash out at the Israelis. It is becoming obvious you few's true loyalties seem to lie with Hamas themselves. Good job, supporting subhuman scum such as that.

Give over, no one in this thread has at any point supported Hamas or been anti Semitic. Don't get me wrong, certain posters have regularly thrown these accusations around in the hope that they can stifle debate and distract away from the actions of a state that are employing tactics comparable to the Nazis to kill women and children.

As for the obvious, we all see it, an ongoing avoidance by Israel to create a viable Palestinian state and the end of Settlement building. I see today's news is that Israel have blown up the tv stations to make it more difficult for them to report, and the port and power station also. This isn't about attacking Hamas, rather about punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas.

Punishing Gaza for electing Hamas? That is interesting, at least I have not heard that one yet on here. With all respect, I am not sure I agree. I still believe this goes far beyond the Palestinian question.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 29th July 15:06

I understand fully why so many people are so very upset with Israel's current strategy. But to suggest that Israel don't want a viable, stable Palestinian state is something I find incredulous. What do those people think Israel do want ? The total destruction of the Palestinians ? If so, they could & would have done it by now. It's Hamas who have no interest in peace, not Israel, as can be judged by their respective attitudes towards life & death. The Hamas billionaires could easily afford an Iron Dome system like Israel's if they actually wanted to reduce the loss of life. That doesn't excuse Israel's actions before I'm mis-interpreted, it's simply an interesting thought

Which leads onto the issue that many (not all) 'pro-Israel' posters try to at least look at things from a variety of perspectives, whilst many (but again not all) pro-Palestinian posters (on PH and in the wider communities) seem incapable of seeing anything other than they are in the right and everything Israel does is wrong.

You may not agree with everything in it, but a fascinating blog here trying to look at both sides. I appreciate many 'pro-gaza / pro-palestinian' ppl will still argue it is one sided despite being written by a (non-practising) muslim but it does raise some very interesting questions. Questions which the bulk of the 'freegaza' lobby seem to completely ignore

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_805...


For what it's worth, I take a stance similar to the author's penultimate paragraph - pro two state solution & democracy, anti Hamas & settlement expansion.

[Mrr T]

jonby said:

You may not agree with everything in it, but a fascinating blog here trying to look at both sides. I appreciate many 'pro-gaza / pro-palestinian' ppl will still argue it is one sided despite being written by a (non-practising) muslim but it does raise some very interesting questions. Questions which the bulk of the 'freegaza' lobby seem to completely ignore

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_805...

Thanks for the link.

I agree with a vast majority of opinions in the blog.

[allnighter]

Mrr T I will respond tonite am at work now.

[Scuffers]

jonby said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_805...

Given the usual reporting standards there, this one actually took me aback a bit!

very well reasoned and written

[jonby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Do you realise that in Israel, more than 20% of the population are Arab ? They have voting rights, rights to be an MP (there are a number), rights to equal healthcare & to equal pay

They also have the right to be a high court judge. There is indeed a current sitting Arab high court judge - in 2013 he banned Likud's (the party in power) adverts for being "racist and almost certain to hurt the feelings of Arab Israelis and disrupt public order." This also overruled the advice of Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein who suggested the committee had no authority to regulate online adverts and posters. What committee I hear you ask ? The election committee, chaired by the Arab judge !

Can you possibly imagine that situation in reverse in a Palestinian run state ?

But no you're right - it's Israel's attitude that is the elephant in the room and Israel are the ones that refuse to share..............

I will again stress that I don't think everything that Israel does is right, nor justified. I also believe many Palestinians are innocent pawns. But to suggest that the majority of Israelis are not interested in peace - the ability to live side by side with their neighbours in some form of harmony, is just plain wrong. And yes, I've spoken to many Israelis including my own relatives, on this very subject

Equally, whilst I fully understand why Hamas were voted in and indeed I may well have done the same if I were a Palestinian living in Gaza, Hamas are far less likely to agree (sincerely and stick to) a two state solution than Israel are

Incidentally I saw your post on the other Israeli thread where you reference the 'jewish state' and what Israel might prefer as a solution. It's important to note that Israel has written into it's constitution that everyone has freedom of faith. It is actually arguably NOT a jewish state in that respect. To answer your question, that's why a 2 state solution is the only solution and why Israel can't go for a one state solution as the Arabs would out number the Jews and we all know what would happen then.....

Edited by jonby on Tuesday 29th July 16:29

Edited by jonby on Tuesday 29th July 16:58

[TwigtheWonderkid]

jonby said:

Do you realise that in Israel, more than 20% of the population are Arab ? They have voting rights, rights to be an MP (there are a number), rights to equal healthcare & to equal pay

They also have the right to be a high court judge. There is indeed a current sitting Arab high court judge - in 2013 he banned Likud's (the party in power) adverts for being "racist and almost certain to hurt the feelings of Arab Israelis and disrupt public order." This also overruled the advice of Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein who suggested the committee had no authority to regulate online adverts and posters. What committee I hear you ask ? The election committee, chaired by the Arab judge !

Can you possibly imagine that situation in reverse in a Palestinian run state ?

Not forgetting the Arabs / Muslims in the Israeli Army, Navy and Air Force. Not many I admit, but some, including one very high ranking officer. I posted a link about him a few weeks ago on this thread but nobody commented on it.

There are many middle class Arabs / Muslims in cities like Haifa who are happy living in Israel. It's far from perfect, and they are the subject of discrimination from some of the more bonkers Jews, and there are things they'd no doubt like to change, but it's a damn sight better than living under the usual corrupt dictatorships which prevail in the rest of the region.

[anonymous-user]

Jonby, you find me a poster on here from any 'side' who has stated they have the faith that Israel wants a solution that involves sharing of land. Then tell me now the continual expansion into the WB and lines being carved through it by Israeli-only roads points in any way towards trying to set aside anything viable for a Palestinian nation.
Futhermore, do you really think the Israelis would accept an Arab MAJORITY within their population through population growth?
I know Arabs live in Israel but they are a MINORITY.
Dont be so naive.

[anonymous-user]

Another point for Jonby, when I refer to what the Israeli's say, want or do, I mean the Israeli government and establishment.
I want two state solution!
I have stated that is the most practical solution!
What are you suggesting the Arabs would do if they became the majority in a single Israel?

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 29th July 17:04

[jonby]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

jonby said:

Do you realise that in Israel, more than 20% of the population are Arab ? They have voting rights, rights to be an MP (there are a number), rights to equal healthcare & to equal pay

They also have the right to be a high court judge. There is indeed a current sitting Arab high court judge - in 2013 he banned Likud's (the party in power) adverts for being "racist and almost certain to hurt the feelings of Arab Israelis and disrupt public order." This also overruled the advice of Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein who suggested the committee had no authority to regulate online adverts and posters. What committee I hear you ask ? The election committee, chaired by the Arab judge !

Can you possibly imagine that situation in reverse in a Palestinian run state ?

Not forgetting the Arabs / Muslims in the Israeli Army, Navy and Air Force. Not many I admit, but some, including one very high ranking officer. I posted a link about him a few weeks ago on this thread but nobody commented on it.

There are many middle class Arabs / Muslims in cities like Haifa who are happy living in Israel. It's far from perfect, and they are the subject of discrimination from some of the more bonkers Jews, and there are things they'd no doubt like to change, but it's a damn sight better than living under the usual corrupt dictatorships which prevail in the rest of the region.

That's what makes accusations of apartheid so absurd. Incidentally arabs of course have the right to opt out of conscription to avoid personal conflict. As you say, it's not perfect but more chance of (legal) prosperity, there's freedom of speech & movement, a safer environment and so on. Room for improvement - sure ! But not a bad start considering how young the country is and how much pressure they must all be under, especially when you look at how poorly we seem to be managing integration here in the UK

[jonby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I don't agree with the expansion into the WB. It's an incredibly contentious issue and one that you find more disapproval of (including by me) than almost anything else.

Of course Israel wouldn't accept an Arab majority. A 2 state solution is the only solution. But you are naïve if you think a party like Hamas will ever be happy for more than a very brief period of time with any border until Israel no longer exists

Edited by jonby on Tuesday 29th July 17:13

[jonby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Wipe out the jews. They would do it tomorrow and not skip a heartbeat

[anonymous-user]

jonby said:

Wipe out the jews. They would do it tomorrow and not skip a heartbeat

Pre Israel did Jew, Muslim and Christian live side by side?

[anonymous-user]

jonby said:

I don't agree with the expansion into the WB

That's nice but it wasn't what I asked. What do you think the Israeli government and establishment actually want to do with the WB?

[jonby]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The world has changed, so have religious fundamentalists

A more realistic scenario for you. If Hamas tomorrow inherited the same military hardware that Israel owns, what do you think it would do with it ?

[FredClogs]

jonby said:

But not a bad start considering how young the country is

Palestine (or an ancient naming of it) is over 4000 years old and the land was probably inhabited before then, hardly new, and people have been fighting over it on and off for most of that time...

Life for arabs in Israel, especially in Jerusalem is getting increasingly difficult, it's well documented.

[Jimbeaux]

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Colonial said:

Both of these posts perfectly show why this will be going on for much longer yet.

Both sides are victims of the actions of their leaders and certain groups that want to prolong the tension for their own ideological gains.

There is no side that can claim any form of high ground. Just civillians on both sides suffering.

I agree. However, looking back over this thread, those like me who have some sympathy with the Israeli viewpoint are also very critical of Israel and many of their actions over the years. And can see the Palestinian side of things and can appreciate their frustrations.

But those who support the Palestinians tend to see the whole issue as black and white, Palestinian goodies v the Israeli baddies. So much so that they distort or ignore historical facts and seek to mitigate stuff like rockets being fired as minor irritations and not a serious issue. It's quite staggering how warped some of their views are, imho.

This^^^

Actually I have not seen anyone on here who fit Twig's description when defending Palestinian civilians. They were just as critical of Hamas. It's a blatant lie and it's not the first fib coming from Twigs.

If not, then accept my apologies. I am still,waiting for condemnations of Hamas however.

Are you in a lazy mode Jim? The thread is full of contributors who like me condemned Hamas (I called them a dictatorship) and their targeting of Israeli civilians with their rockets.

Then as I said, please accept my apologies to you.