Israeli

Author
Discussion

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
It does not really matter what the Israelis and the Palestinians want. The reality is that the security of the region and the prospects for peace therein are entirely in the hands of all those other nations that are overtly and covertly pulling the strings. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, USA, Russia and many others all have their own role to play in securing a long lasting peace. And that's before you even get into the politics of Hamas, Fatah, Jewish extremist groups, alliances, allegiances, the various groupings within Islam, the various groupings within Judaism, the role of Christians and so on and so on. Simplistic notions of a "two state solution" are always doomed to fail when there are so many hands in the pot, any one of which can screw it up for everyone.

And sat in the back of all of this are the two awful truths that have to be faced...

1. That Israel, by reacting as it does to the rocket attacks and other atrocities and threats is in danger of becoming the very thing that would surely never want to be.. A nasty, unthinking, uncaring bully that, whilst it can rationalise defending itself extremely efficiently, is actually destroying itself morally and spiritually as it does so. I do not think that comparisons with Nazi Germany are either helpful or accurate, but in one sense there is a national psychosis within Israel that thousands of years of persecution culminating in the holocaust has created - namely that Israel will always believe that the ONLY people who will protect them, when push comes to shove, is themselves. From there leads a path of absolute resolution never to be the victims again.

2. That the Palestinian people are seemingly forever condemned to be the blood victims of not only their own leaders but also anyone else in the region who wishes to use them in their proxy war with Jews. And let's be candid here, at the root of that thinking is clear anti semitism, and as such is in itself has a more closer parallel to the Nazis!
Ironically that very anti semitism is further evidenced by the neighbouring Arab states approach to the Palestinians (who are also semites) in that the Palestinians are treated as being worthy of the status of little more than cannon fodder.

Everyone gets upset (and rightly so) about the suffering of the Palestinian people. However people are entirely wrong to focus on the imbalance in the conflict! Inequality of outcome does not negate reality of the intent. Palestinians are frequently the aggressors. The fact that the Israelis are rather better at it, are better equipped and as a result kill more than they are themselves killed is not the point. Following that logic would suggest that everyone would be happy if it was 1000 deaths on each side! The fact is that if the Palestinians COULD kill 1000 Jews then they WOULD.
It was said recently that the Israelis use their weapons to defend their people, whilst Hamas uses its people to protect its weapons. There is more than a grain of truth in this and it betrays the utter hopelessness of the current situation.

As long as Palestinians are dyeing to further the aims of others then there can be no peace.
As long as Israel feels threatened in the region there can be no peace
As long as the Palestinian people have no viable homeland there can be no peace

The answer then lies in the above 3 statements. For there to be peace

The other parties and countries currently meddling and using Palestine as a stick with which they can vicariously beat Israel need to butt out.
Israel needs to have it's security and status assured by all around it - and they have to be convinced that such assurances are real!
The Palestinians need to be helped to set up a viable homeland, free of extremist influences - a homeland capable of sustaining and nurturing its people for the future.

Everything else is candy floss.
That was one of the most comprehensive and sensible statements on this thread to date IMO. Thanks Andy.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
agree ^^^

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
So you think firing rockets at them is going to help their lot?

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
kitz said:
jonby said:
That's what makes accusations of apartheid so absurd. Incidentally arabs of course have the right to opt out of conscription to avoid personal conflict. As you say, it's not perfect but more chance of (legal) prosperity, there's freedom of speech & movement, a safer environment and so on. Room for improvement - sure ! But not a bad start considering how young the country is and how much pressure they must all be under, especially when you look at how poorly we seem to be managing integration here in the UK
It's not legally possible in Israel for a Jew to marry a non Jew .
Jewish occupiers in the West Bank enjoy Israeli civil law .
Palestinians are subject to military law
The law of return applies only to Jews ( anywhere in the world )
and excludes Palestinians born in what now is Israel.
Palestinians cannot bring spouses from the occupied lands to live with them,Jews can .

I could bring up housing ,education and health but you get the drift .

Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter think it is Apartheid .
I think if it walks like a duck.quacks like a duck .............

It seems most of the pro Israeli zealots just want the Palestinians to settle down
be 'good uncle toms ' and everything will be fine .
you make some interesting points, some I agree with, some I think are oversimplified. The marriage example for instance, is down to the fact that at present, there is no state civil marriage although I think there is a sort of equivalent to the civil partnerships in this country (but for heterosexual couples). This in turn means that marriages are presided over by the relevant religious governing body. So in fact, a jewish female could marry a muslim male in a ceremony presided over by the muslim 'church'. But the orthodox synagogue is the only one that presides over marriages in Israel and I could no more marry a non jew in Israel in a jewish ceremony than I could in this country, which is to say I can't

I'm not an expert n marriage in Israel but that's my understanding of the situation - to suggest that in some way that's part of an argument that Israel practices policies akin to apartheid is not something I can quite see- the whole issue of intermarriage in the jewish community is incredibly complicated and could fill as many pages as this thread on the current conflict but I don't see it being anything to do with 'arabs rights'

arabs, palestinian or not, living in what we know as Israel, do not live under military law - those that live under military law surely do so by virtue of where they live, not who they are ?

As I say, I agree with some of your points and I certainly think the system is very far from perfect. But having spent plenty of time in Israel (enough to have an a opinion, insufficient to be an expert) I simply don't recognise the comparisons


jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
OK, I'll do my best - I'm not going to pretend I have a perfect answer - I'm not so much trying to avoid answering the question as I am admitting the situation is complicated and I don't have fully resolved answers in my own head

I think that the Israeli authorities would relinquish WB in it's entirety if they could be satisfied it would achieve genuine long term peace. I think they have done themselves no favours in taking the attitude they have towards settlements and at times have acted disingenuously. I think they are less inclined towards such a solution now than they once were but I still think they would do it, one imagines realistically along the lines proposed at summits previously involving land swaps. At the heart of the issue, I don't believe the exact location of borders would be the final sticking point but if it were, I find it far more likely that Jerusalem would be the problem. Is that most accurately phrased as 'long term willingness ' - no, but as I say, I think given the right circumstances, they would do it. If nothing else, I also think in the slightly ridiculous scenario that everything else was agreed and the Israeli public had a say in it, the pressure would be too overwhelming to accept for the govt not to go ahead, but as I say that;s arguably too hypothetical and is not a direct answer to your question. Call all that ducking an answer if you wish - I'm giving you my viewpoint

On the issue of Fatah/Hamas, I have clearer thoughts and I think I've made them in a previous post. I don't think it was ever previously conceivable that Israel would enter into a 'multi stage border solution' for want of a better phrase, which makes your question void. In relative terms, I guess it's potentially more likely that such an approach might be considered now, but I still see it as highly unlikely. If it was, then yes, Hamas would not be part of such an equation. The reason I find it unlikely is that Israel's whole approach is based on not believing that whatever they offer will ever be enough. Therefore at the very least, they will want certainty on all border issues before agreeing to a long term solution on any borders. Whether you think that's right or wrong (I sympathise with both viewpoints) I do believe thats at the heart of Israel's thought process

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
So you think firing rockets at them is going to help their lot?
Are you asking me ?

Not sure who you are asking about either (which 'them' and 'their' ?)

FWIW I think Hamas are 'helping' their cause by firing rockets as it is drawing the return fire they desire to help their cause

I think that Israel should unfortunately change tack because I suspect that the bombing is counter productive and actually, probably not being that effective at reducing Hamas military capability. I think that unfortunately, Israel are also heavily influenced by a perceived requirement to show their military strength - whether you agree or not, there is a belief by them that the moment they show military inadequacy, they will be a sitting duck to others.

I should add that if I sometimes seem to have conflicting answers, it's because I recognise there are lots of sides to this incredibly complicated situation. IMO, far too many people try to simplify the argument into black & white, right & wrong, which simply doesn't work

To this day, I've never proffered an opinion on what happened in Ireland as I simply can't get my head around it. I find it difficult enough to get to grips with what's going on in Israel - I'd hate to be a 'neutral' (as a jew, I don't consider myself neutral to the Israel/Gaza conflict) to the current situation if I was trying to find reliable factual resources to help form an opinion as pretty much everything Ive read seems biased to one side or the other

Edited by jonby on Tuesday 29th July 19:24

Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
andymadmak said:
It does not really matter what the Israelis and the Palestinians want. The reality is that the security of the region and the prospects for peace therein are entirely in the hands of all those other nations that are overtly and covertly pulling the strings. Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, USA, Russia and many others all have their own role to play in securing a long lasting peace. And that's before you even get into the politics of Hamas, Fatah, Jewish extremist groups, alliances, allegiances, the various groupings within Islam, the various groupings within Judaism, the role of Christians and so on and so on. Simplistic notions of a "two state solution" are always doomed to fail when there are so many hands in the pot, any one of which can screw it up for everyone.

And sat in the back of all of this are the two awful truths that have to be faced...

1. That Israel, by reacting as it does to the rocket attacks and other atrocities and threats is in danger of becoming the very thing that would surely never want to be.. A nasty, unthinking, uncaring bully that, whilst it can rationalise defending itself extremely efficiently, is actually destroying itself morally and spiritually as it does so. I do not think that comparisons with Nazi Germany are either helpful or accurate, but in one sense there is a national psychosis within Israel that thousands of years of persecution culminating in the holocaust has created - namely that Israel will always believe that the ONLY people who will protect them, when push comes to shove, is themselves. From there leads a path of absolute resolution never to be the victims again.

2. That the Palestinian people are seemingly forever condemned to be the blood victims of not only their own leaders but also anyone else in the region who wishes to use them in their proxy war with Jews. And let's be candid here, at the root of that thinking is clear anti semitism, and as such is in itself has a more closer parallel to the Nazis!
Ironically that very anti semitism is further evidenced by the neighbouring Arab states approach to the Palestinians (who are also semites) in that the Palestinians are treated as being worthy of the status of little more than cannon fodder.

Everyone gets upset (and rightly so) about the suffering of the Palestinian people. However people are entirely wrong to focus on the imbalance in the conflict! Inequality of outcome does not negate reality of the intent. Palestinians are frequently the aggressors. The fact that the Israelis are rather better at it, are better equipped and as a result kill more than they are themselves killed is not the point. Following that logic would suggest that everyone would be happy if it was 1000 deaths on each side! The fact is that if the Palestinians COULD kill 1000 Jews then they WOULD.
It was said recently that the Israelis use their weapons to defend their people, whilst Hamas uses its people to protect its weapons. There is more than a grain of truth in this and it betrays the utter hopelessness of the current situation.

As long as Palestinians are dyeing to further the aims of others then there can be no peace.
As long as Israel feels threatened in the region there can be no peace
As long as the Palestinian people have no viable homeland there can be no peace

The answer then lies in the above 3 statements. For there to be peace

The other parties and countries currently meddling and using Palestine as a stick with which they can vicariously beat Israel need to butt out.
Israel needs to have it's security and status assured by all around it - and they have to be convinced that such assurances are real!
The Palestinians need to be helped to set up a viable homeland, free of extremist influences - a homeland capable of sustaining and nurturing its people for the future.

Everything else is candy floss.
Very good points.

You've written a lot, very well, but you have only outlined the problems and what is wrong. Anyone can do that, politicians have to try and make it better

So, what is your solution that will work?



jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Gandahar said:
You've written a lot, very well, but you have only outlined the problems and what is wrong. Anyone can do that, politicians have to try and make it better

So, what is your solution that will work?
surely there is only one solution that might conceivably stand a chance of working ? (for the avoidance of doubt, a 2 state one). How you get there is another matter ! I honestly worry that it will be prove quite literally impossible to achieve, though that doesn't mean we should give up hope

kitz

328 posts

176 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Jonby

Jewish occupiers living in the occupied lands enjoy Jewish civil law
Palestinians suffer military law .

Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
jonby said:
Gandahar said:
You've written a lot, very well, but you have only outlined the problems and what is wrong. Anyone can do that, politicians have to try and make it better

So, what is your solution that will work?
surely there is only one solution that might conceivably stand a chance of working ? (for the avoidance of doubt, a 2 state one). How you get there is another matter ! I honestly worry that it will be prove quite literally impossible to achieve, though that doesn't mean we should give up hope
Didn't we give up hope on Northern Ireland? Growing up I thought it would last forever, the troubles, but it seems a lot better now.

Is Northern Ireland 2 states ? One state? Or just part of Europe? Times change and so do people,I get the feeling they don't feel too badly done by with Ireland itself almost being bankrupt.

You can't beat money in the pocket to fight your woes.

The problem with Israel is that they are nowhere near that stage. They are too wrapped up with a religious history on both sides fueled by modern injustices to be able to see what needs to be done. Also geography does not help, you have the strip and the bank, both separated.

A US general once said

All options stink

Here both parties need to put a peg on their nose and close up their religious books.

It's not as if the land is really worth fighting over. Bit of a st heap. But it's the promised st heap. The land of milk and honey turned out to have little oil......



jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
kitz said:
Jonby

Jewish occupiers living in the occupied lands enjoy Jewish civil law
Palestinians suffer military law .
you're quite right - I've been talking primarily about arabs living in what I think of as 'Israel' and their rights within same. In Gaza, where of course there are no jews, it's a different matter. In WB, as I say, you are of course correct

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It won't be an issue, because the Jewish religious extremists (the crazy lot like the nutters who live in Stamford Hill) have about 15 kids.

I've never been to Israel but my mother spends 2 months a year there. She has an old schoolfriend who lives there and my mum goes out every spring. She reliably informs me that the Jewish religious fruitloops are despised by the vast majority of the Jewish population. The call them the cockroaches because they dress in all black and scuttle around in close groups.

A bigger worry for Israel is that these crackpots are exempt from national service, they don't go to normal school but yashivas (religious schools) so are all as thick as pigst and can offer nothing, and are a massive drain on the economy. And they number as a percentage of the population is growing rapidly.

S 8 GRN

1,179 posts

242 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
No one really gives a fk that people are Jewish anymore.
rolleyes

Hence the reason to fight so hard in order to keep a homeland. Ta da. Thanks pal for helping everyone to understand in just one sentence.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
S 8 GRN said:
rolleyes

Hence the reason to fight so hard in order to keep a homeland. Ta da. Thanks pal for helping everyone to understand in just one sentence.
No problem with "keeping a homeland" - the problem arises when they deny others "a homeland".

audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
It is being reported by some news sources in Israel that the real reason for the ground offensive is because Israel's Shin Bet intelligence agency discovered that Hamas had plans for a massive attack involving thousands of terrorists flooding into Israel via the tunnels during upcoming Jewish New Year celebrations in September. The aim of this was to kill and kidnap as many Israelis as possible.

Tunnels that are kilometres long have since been found to have contained extra dug out areas for holding hostages.

According to reports, Netanyahu reveled the plot during a recent cabinet meeting.

He said that if this attack had not been discovered and stopped, Israeli fatalities could have exceeded the 2,200 killed during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. It would have made the Tet Offensive look like a fireworks party.

This is apparently the reason why Israel will not stop hostilities until all the tunnels have been discovered and destroyed.

It is also not a secret that Israel has a special force called the Duvdevan in Gaza operating undercover. The Duvdevan train for years to blend in with the Arab civilian population. These are the forces that are now locating the rocket launchers hidden inside civilian installations.

This is a dirty, dangerous, and nasty war. And it is just what Hamas has been praying for.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
audidoody said:
It is being reported by some news sources in Israel that the real reason for the ground offensive is because Israel's Shin Bet intelligence agency discovered that Hamas had plans for a massive attack involving thousands of terrorists flooding into Israel via the tunnels during upcoming Jewish New Year celebrations in September. The aim of this was to kill and kidnap as many Israelis as possible.

Tunnels that are kilometres long have since been found to have contained extra dug out areas for holding hostages.

According to reports, Netanyahu reveled the plot during a recent cabinet meeting.

He said that if this attack had not been discovered and stopped, Israeli fatalities could have exceeded the 2,200 killed during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. It would have made the Tet Offensive look like a fireworks party.

This is apparently the reason why Israel will not stop hostilities until all the tunnels have been discovered and destroyed.

It is also not a secret that Israel has a special force called the Duvdevan in Gaza operating undercover. The Duvdevan train for years to blend in with the Arab civilian population. These are the forces that are now locating the rocket launchers hidden inside civilian installations.

This is a dirty, dangerous, and nasty war. And it is just what Hamas has been praying for.
yep, that's been reported for a feed days now with surprisingly little coverage. Like pretty much everyone on here, I of course have no way to determine whether it's wholly true, wholly untrue or somewhere in the middle. It could however explain, IF Israel as is suggested by some, manipulated the situation with the kidnapped Israelis to help 'engineer' the escalation, why they did it. When I say 'engineer', I'm talking about the allegations of manipulation of the timing of information release

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It won't be an issue, because the Jewish religious extremists (the crazy lot like the nutters who live in Stamford Hill) have about 15 kids.

I've never been to Israel but my mother spends 2 months a year there. She has an old schoolfriend who lives there and my mum goes out every spring. She reliably informs me that the Jewish religious fruitloops are despised by the vast majority of the Jewish population. The call them the cockroaches because they dress in all black and scuttle around in close groups.

A bigger worry for Israel is that these crackpots are exempt from national service, they don't go to normal school but yashivas (religious schools) so are all as thick as pigst and can offer nothing, and are a massive drain on the economy. And they number as a percentage of the population is growing rapidly.
It's important to remember that not all very observant jews (it's confusing when they are referred to as orthodox because that word has two different meanings when it comes to describing jews) are extremists, particularly those outside Israel.

Many of those you refer to who live in areas like Stamford Hill are 'extreme' in their following of the rules of the religion and dress in the way you describe, but are not extreme in their political views. In Israel, there is more of a tendency for the two to intertwine but again, there are some politically reasonable jews that live an observant lifestyle

In fact in Israel, the majority of jews follow the laws of the religion far less than those outside Israel. Within Israel, it tends to be more black & white, as jews tend to follow the bulk of the religious laws or very few. Outside Israel, there is much more of a mix, with people for instance perhaps not driving on the Sabbath or eating non kosher food, but being quite mainstream and integrated in all other respects including dressing 'normally'. The other thing many don't understand is that because of the whole unique nature of the race/religion arguments about Judaism, there are literally millions of people who feel very strongly about their judaism but don't believe in God

andymadmak

14,482 posts

269 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Gandahar said:
Very good points.

You've written a lot, very well, but you have only outlined the problems and what is wrong. Anyone can do that, politicians have to try and make it better

So, what is your solution that will work?
My solution?

Well, for a start we need to get the USA, the Russians, the EU and the Chinese in a room to agree unequivocally that they will do what it takes to reign the various factions in. That means the real threat of large scale sanctions/action against any party that steps out of line in the region. And I do mean ANY party.

Next I would tell Israel it had to go back to the 67 borders. Areas like the Golan Heights would not be returned to the states from whence they came, but instead would be held by the UN as a form of buffer zone. In return Israel would be given cast iron assurances as to its security within those borders from all the neighboring states, and enforced by threat of harsh repurcussions from all the USA, Russians, EU and Chinese.
In return for going back to the 67 borders Israel would not have to accept the return of displaced Arabs.

Then resources should be put into creating a viable Palestinian state from the WB and Gaza, with a UN protected corridor linking the two.

Then I would begin a large scale program of youth integration in neutral locations around the world. Young Israelis and Palestinians would be forced to spend time together for a period so that they could begin to learn to accept each other as human beings. I have given up on educating the older guys, but the future is the youth and enlightenment should help to anchor the peace in the long term. It would be a bit like national service..no opt outs, the kids would HAVE to do it.

Jerusalem would be made an international city

Any acts of terror,by any group on any side would be investigated by independant international observers and those responsible would be tried in an international court.


All the above is probably crap, but perhaps some of it might be in the right direction? One thing is for sure, it would be financially expensive, but if it helped to secure long term peace in the Middle East it would represent the bargain of the millenium for humanity as a whole




Qwert1e

545 posts

117 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
S 8 GRN said:
Hence the reason to fight so hard in order to keep a homeland.
If it was a "hard" fight you might achieve some small credibility. Sadly it's an "easy" fight, with Israel shelling civilians and using high-tech weaponry to carry out reprisal attacks/killings.

Only Israel and its deluded supporters think it is winning anything at all.

JuniorD

8,616 posts

222 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
FredClogs said:
Jimbeaux said:
FredClogs said:
jonby said:
But not a bad start considering how young the country is
Palestine (or an ancient naming of it) is over 4000 years old and the land was probably inhabited before then, hardly new, and people have been fighting over it on and off for most of that time...

Life for arabs in Israel, especially in Jerusalem is getting increasingly difficult, it's well documented.
Documentation then please.
Seriously? You can't use google or pick up a news paper?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/27/the-n...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels-ethnic-cleans...

and a more general journal...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/11/23/what_d...
Why, when I can make you do it. hehe