Discussion
allnighter said:
audidoody said:
So how come Hamas isn't firing rockets at the other country that is blockading them and confining them to a 'prison'. Egypt.
Egypt is not the occupier of Palestinian territories. Israel is.Egypt's military dictatorship has to be by virtue Israel's b!tch if it wants to guarantee receiving the $70 billion in aid from the United States.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Wednesday 30th July 02:21
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I agree. However, looking back over this thread, those like me who have some sympathy with the Israeli viewpoint are also very critical of Israel and many of their actions over the years. And can see the Palestinian side of things and can appreciate their frustrations.
But those who support the Palestinians tend to see the whole issue as black and white, Palestinian goodies v the Israeli baddies. So much so that they distort or ignore historical facts and seek to mitigate stuff like rockets being fired as minor irritations and not a serious issue. It's quite staggering how warped some of their views are, imho.
I support the Palestinians in terms of reacting to the oppression they suffer, and continue to suffer. Not the means in which it is carried out, and nor the actions of Hamas. But those who support the Palestinians tend to see the whole issue as black and white, Palestinian goodies v the Israeli baddies. So much so that they distort or ignore historical facts and seek to mitigate stuff like rockets being fired as minor irritations and not a serious issue. It's quite staggering how warped some of their views are, imho.
I also support the right of Israel to exist, but not the actions of the IDF nor the actions of religious fundamentalist settlers illegally taking land who see Muslims as no different to how fundamentalist Muslims see Jews.
It appears that, no matter what you say to the contrary, if you show sympathy for the Palestinian people then some people on this thread insist that you agree with Hamas. These same people keep bringing it up (like the anti-Semitism accusations) as some kind of strawman argument to have a moan about something that isn't happening! Do they think that they'll scare off dissenting voices for fear of being branded anti-Semitic? Who knows!
jonby said:
<snip>
some of example of many articles confirming it - the first I happened to find
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/For...
http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/hamas-continues-ki...
I have no doubt they have hit the power plant in Gaza to control and show military supremacy (I share no glory in that statement but I have to assume that's the motivation) but they will continue to supply power, medical aid, telecommunications & more to Gaza. I don't say that in way that's meant to elicit praise for Israel, nor with any other motivation. I make my comments as a matter of factual statement - they can be used differently by those on both sides of the argument (I recognise not everyone takes sides in this of course)
I like the choice of 'many articles confirming it'. Obviously 'factual'. No agenda.some of example of many articles confirming it - the first I happened to find
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/For...
http://pamelageller.com/2014/07/hamas-continues-ki...
I have no doubt they have hit the power plant in Gaza to control and show military supremacy (I share no glory in that statement but I have to assume that's the motivation) but they will continue to supply power, medical aid, telecommunications & more to Gaza. I don't say that in way that's meant to elicit praise for Israel, nor with any other motivation. I make my comments as a matter of factual statement - they can be used differently by those on both sides of the argument (I recognise not everyone takes sides in this of course)
It is collective punishment, not that Israeli government is concerned with international law, is it.
Colonial said:
I also support the right of Israel to exist, but not the actions of the IDF nor the actions of religious fundamentalist settlers illegally taking land who see Muslims as no different to how fundamentalist Muslims see Jews.
Indeed..this is a "tribal" conflict nicely detailed by this Arab who seems to hold a fairly objective reviewhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_805...
Bar one or two who refuse to question the side they've taken the rest of us can see the destruction of the only power station as nothing other than collective punishment.
As for the 5am attack on another UN school where 3,000 people were sheltering, an attack without any warning and that the IDF are trying to keep reporters away from. Well this is a war crime. But I'm sure the usual suspects will come along to defend or try to distract.
This is simple, agree to lift the blockade and negotiate a peace. Israel's refusal to do this will come back to haunt them. And those that continue to arm them and block any UN actions, including our government. Shameful. History remembers the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, it will also remember the war crimes of Israel.
As for the 5am attack on another UN school where 3,000 people were sheltering, an attack without any warning and that the IDF are trying to keep reporters away from. Well this is a war crime. But I'm sure the usual suspects will come along to defend or try to distract.
This is simple, agree to lift the blockade and negotiate a peace. Israel's refusal to do this will come back to haunt them. And those that continue to arm them and block any UN actions, including our government. Shameful. History remembers the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, it will also remember the war crimes of Israel.
RedTrident said:
Bar one or two who refuse to question the side they've taken the rest of us can see the destruction of the only power station as nothing other than collective punishment.
As for the 5am attack on another UN school where 3,000 people were sheltering, an attack without any warning and that the IDF are trying to keep reporters away from. Well this is a war crime. But I'm sure the usual suspects will come along to defend or try to distract.
This is simple, agree to lift the blockade and negotiate a peace. Israel's refusal to do this will come back to haunt them. And those that continue to arm them and block any UN actions, including our government. Shameful. History remembers the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, it will also remember the war crimes of Israel.
problem with all that is we have only lightest of detail, the reports comming out of Gaza are really poor.As for the 5am attack on another UN school where 3,000 people were sheltering, an attack without any warning and that the IDF are trying to keep reporters away from. Well this is a war crime. But I'm sure the usual suspects will come along to defend or try to distract.
This is simple, agree to lift the blockade and negotiate a peace. Israel's refusal to do this will come back to haunt them. And those that continue to arm them and block any UN actions, including our government. Shameful. History remembers the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, it will also remember the war crimes of Israel.
we have reporters there, but either they are being chaperoned in what they can see/talk about or are just not bothering.
we keep hearing about UN this and that being targeted, but where are the pictures and reports from the journo's on the ground? all we are getting is 2nd hand reports and the odd picture of a bit of floor etc.
yes, the oil tanks at the power plant were hit (one assumes deliberately? but let's face it, we don't know that, for all we know, they could have been launching rockets from the top of the tanks?), we then only have the words of the 'plant manager' that the rest of the plant was destroyed? once again, no pictures/video/first hand reports to back this up with.
the latest UN school that was hit this morning, was it actually hit or something next to it? where they firing rockets from there (like the last one?), was it in fact a rocket falling short/exploding on launch? (which would explain the lack of IDF warning - and lets face it, no matter how much you may loathe them, they are being very specific about giving clear warnings etc).
what I am getting at is all the press seem to be complicit in NOT doing their job of reporting stuff first hand, but just repeating what they are told.
we got better coverage during the iraq invasion than we are getting here, why is that?
The reports coming out are very clear.
A UN school was hit at 5am where 3000 people, all families that had fled their homes were sheltering .
No warning was given.
IDF tanks attacked the school.
So far 15 dead.
As for why the reporters are struggling to get near, Israel has form here and you know it.
War Crime. Plain and simple.
A UN school was hit at 5am where 3000 people, all families that had fled their homes were sheltering .
No warning was given.
IDF tanks attacked the school.
So far 15 dead.
As for why the reporters are struggling to get near, Israel has form here and you know it.
War Crime. Plain and simple.
reports from where?
how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
or are you suggesting the UN won't let them report?
Look, I am not saying it did not happen like you said, but if it did, I want to see some real reporting of it.
if a school with 3000 people in it got hit by tank shells, I am dam sure it would kill a lot more than 15 people, hence me thinking that they either shells something close to it, or it was not a tank shell at all.
the IDF are not idiots, they know how this looks, and they have been very up front about giving warnings of where they are about to target, the fact the reports are saying they did not give any kind of beggs the question was it actually the IDF shelling that caused this?
how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
or are you suggesting the UN won't let them report?
Look, I am not saying it did not happen like you said, but if it did, I want to see some real reporting of it.
if a school with 3000 people in it got hit by tank shells, I am dam sure it would kill a lot more than 15 people, hence me thinking that they either shells something close to it, or it was not a tank shell at all.
the IDF are not idiots, they know how this looks, and they have been very up front about giving warnings of where they are about to target, the fact the reports are saying they did not give any kind of beggs the question was it actually the IDF shelling that caused this?
raftom said:
andymadmak said:
My solution?
Well, for a start we need to get the USA, the Russians, the EU and the Chinese in a room to agree unequivocally that they will do what it takes to reign the various factions in.
Tension in the Middle East means higher oil prices, so you can count the Russians out.Well, for a start we need to get the USA, the Russians, the EU and the Chinese in a room to agree unequivocally that they will do what it takes to reign the various factions in.
andymadmak said:
Then resources should be put into creating a viable Palestinian state from the WB and Gaza, with a UN protected corridor linking the two.
Then I would begin a large scale program of youth integration in neutral locations around the world. Young Israelis and Palestinians would be forced to spend time together for a period so that they could begin to learn to accept each other as human beings. I have given up on educating the older guys, but the future is the youth and enlightenment should help to anchor the peace in the long term. It would be a bit like national service..no opt outs, the kids would HAVE to do it.
Jerusalem would be made an international city
Any acts of terror,by any group on any side would be investigated by independant international observers and those responsible would be tried in an international court.
All of this is nice and fluffy, but easy to sabotage by a small group of determined extremists. The problem, as we saw by the death of the 3 israeli kids, is that is much easier to start a fire then to put it down.Then I would begin a large scale program of youth integration in neutral locations around the world. Young Israelis and Palestinians would be forced to spend time together for a period so that they could begin to learn to accept each other as human beings. I have given up on educating the older guys, but the future is the youth and enlightenment should help to anchor the peace in the long term. It would be a bit like national service..no opt outs, the kids would HAVE to do it.
Jerusalem would be made an international city
Any acts of terror,by any group on any side would be investigated by independant international observers and those responsible would be tried in an international court.
Scuffers said:
reports from where?
how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
Oh my, now you're resorting to outright denial. The facts on the ground are as I describe them, there are multiple news channels reporting what has taken place and I'm sure footage will come out soon enough.how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
andymadmak said:
Ok, So what are your suggestions for achieving lasting peace in the Middle East?
Give Gaza and the West Bank to Israel.Re-settle the Palestinians into Jordan with generous compensation and full citizens rights (like was originally agreed upon)
No more refugees, no more settlers, just clear and defined national boundaries.
An international UN border force could than monitor a buffer zone around the whole state of Israel.
skyrover said:
Give Gaza and the West Bank to Israel.
Re-settle the Palestinians into Jordan with generous compensation and full citizens rights (like was originally agreed upon)
No more refugees, no more settlers, just clear and defined national boundaries.
An international UN border force could than monitor a buffer zone around the whole state of Israel.
Why not give Palestine back to Palestinians?Re-settle the Palestinians into Jordan with generous compensation and full citizens rights (like was originally agreed upon)
No more refugees, no more settlers, just clear and defined national boundaries.
An international UN border force could than monitor a buffer zone around the whole state of Israel.
Scuffers said:
reports from where?
how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
or are you suggesting the UN won't let them report?
Look, I am not saying it did not happen like you said, but if it did, I want to see some real reporting of it.
if a school with 3000 people in it got hit by tank shells, I am dam sure it would kill a lot more than 15 people, hence me thinking that they either shells something close to it, or it was not a tank shell at all.
the IDF are not idiots, they know how this looks, and they have been very up front about giving warnings of where they are about to target, the fact the reports are saying they did not give any kind of beggs the question was it actually the IDF shelling that caused this?
You are right, it was, of course, Hamas rocket. Even if it wasn't, it still was Hamas's responsibility.how do you know it was tanks?
this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
or are you suggesting the UN won't let them report?
Look, I am not saying it did not happen like you said, but if it did, I want to see some real reporting of it.
if a school with 3000 people in it got hit by tank shells, I am dam sure it would kill a lot more than 15 people, hence me thinking that they either shells something close to it, or it was not a tank shell at all.
the IDF are not idiots, they know how this looks, and they have been very up front about giving warnings of where they are about to target, the fact the reports are saying they did not give any kind of beggs the question was it actually the IDF shelling that caused this?
With apologists like you, IDF doesn't need to care much, do they. What kind of proof do you want? Even if someone presents shell from the ruins, you'd probably say 'oh, but where is the proof that it's not planted there'.
What comes out from your posts is that, for you, Palestinian lives are worth considerably less than Israeli. IMHO, people like you, on both sides, are the reason for the complete mess. Utterly despicable oxygen thieves, regardless of nationality.
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