Israeli

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s1962a

5,263 posts

161 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
Scuffers said:
reports from where?

how do you know it was tanks?

this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.
Oh my, now you're resorting to outright denial. The facts on the ground are as I describe them, there are multiple news channels reporting what has taken place and I'm sure footage will come out soon enough.
A lot of the facts are coming from the UN, so a bit difficult to deny.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleea...

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
The reports coming out are very clear.

A UN school was hit at 5am where 3000 people, all families that had fled their homes were sheltering .

No warning was given.

IDF tanks attacked the school.

So far 15 dead.

As for why the reporters are struggling to get near, Israel has form here and you know it.

War Crime. Plain and simple.
Scuffers said:
reports from where?

how do you know it was tanks?

this is the point, there are journo's there, but once again, NO FIRST HAND reporting.

or are you suggesting the UN won't let them report?

Look, I am not saying it did not happen like you said, but if it did, I want to see some real reporting of it.

if a school with 3000 people in it got hit by tank shells, I am dam sure it would kill a lot more than 15 people, hence me thinking that they either shells something close to it, or it was not a tank shell at all.

the IDF are not idiots, they know how this looks, and they have been very up front about giving warnings of where they are about to target, the fact the reports are saying they did not give any kind of beggs the question was it actually the IDF shelling that caused this?
I find it fascinating that people see this issue as black & white

Here's the Guardian's report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-...

Now I think it's fair to say that the Guardian is not exactly deemed as being pro-Israel in it's coverage

They lead with the headline about the school being hit - fair enough

The 7th paragraph down refers to the third incident in the last week or two of the UN publically admitting to finding caches of large weapons in it' schools. From the many references I've seen to these discoveries, reporting of all three incidents has been pro actively offered by the UNRWA, as opposed to them being accused and then reluctantly agreeing. So bearing in mind UNRWA's role in Gaza, one has to surely assume this is not scaremongering or accusations from 'the other side'

Now I'm not saying this makes bombing a school right, nor am I saying this particular school had weapons hidden, but surely when you keep hearing these stories it makes it harder to just take the blanket approach of 'Israel are committing war crimes, Israel are deliberately targeting innocents, etc' ? Plus as mentioned above, if Israel really are simply targeting as many innocent civilians and locations as they can, more than 15 people would die in a school sheltering 3,000 ?

So how can this issue be so black & white with regards to 'who's right & who's wrong' ?




audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
Bar one or two who refuse to question the side they've taken the rest of us can see the destruction of the only power station as nothing other than collective punishment.

As for the 5am attack on another UN school where 3,000 people were sheltering, an attack without any warning and that the IDF are trying to keep reporters away from. Well this is a war crime. But I'm sure the usual suspects will come along to defend or try to distract.

This is simple, agree to lift the blockade and negotiate a peace. Israel's refusal to do this will come back to haunt them. And those that continue to arm them and block any UN actions, including our government. Shameful. History remembers the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime, it will also remember the war crimes of Israel.
You should try and think things through a bit more:

1. Who is giving the journalists in Gaza their information?
2. How many journalists in Gaza are being allowed free access to go where they like
3. Why do you think no journalists have (so far) been killed be Israeli fire (hint: could it be because their Hamas minders know EXACTLY which targets are going to be hit?
4. Who do you think is standing in the background out of camera shot when the journalists do their interviews with residents of Gaza?
5. If Hamas want people in the West to condemn Israel for war crimes and equate them to the Nazis, how do you think they would go about achieving this?
6. If Hamas knows Israel will hit areas where there are tunnel entrances and rocket stashes where do you think Hamas will locate these to get maximum PR effect when they are destroyed?
7. How do you know that the power station was not a Hamas armoury?

A few things to consider:
1. Israel has been adamant that it has been giving people advance warning of targeted areas (PS: the Nazis tended not to do this)
2. Israel has special forces on the ground identifying targets and sending GPS co-ordinates (Google 'Duvdevan' and 'mistaravim")
3. Why has Hamas built hundreds of concrete-reinforced tunnels leading into Israel?
4. How do you know for certain that Hamas rockets are not falling short and landing back in Gaza (these things are not compeer-controlled)?
5. How do you negotiate a peace with a group that has the total destruction of your country as its primary goal?

In media terms this is turning into the most one-sided PR war. Israel has the ordinance but Hamas has the PR machine. I don't blame the journalists. Their access in Gaza is totally controlled by Hamas. Nothing moves without Hamas's say-so. And Israel doesn't give a flying fk about world opinion. The country has a collective psyche of national survival and for 64 years has understood it stands alone. Israel could have invented the phrase "the means justifies the ends".

This conflict polarises opinion like no other. Which is why propaganda is so effective. But please - spare me the puerile analogies with Nazi war crimes until you see Palestinian women and children being marched to death camps in their hundreds of thousands. You live in a country that has done its fair share of slaughtering citizens as collateral damage in war over the last 100 years.

supersingle

3,205 posts

218 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Three UN schools now found to have been hiding Hamas rockets. UN supplied materials being used to build tunnels.

Looks as though the UN has gone native in Gaza.

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
ypical Mrr T's response, provide links bla bla bla, ignoring the thrust of my argument and applying selective quoting to distort what's conveyed. Did you fully understand what is conveyed or do you select part of what I said and try to twist it to your suitability?
Since I did not ask for any links....
Mrr T said:
Perhaps to help my understanding of the parallels you can provide links to
a) The extermination camps in Israel?
b) The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto lobbing missiles at Germans civilians?
No idea why your memory is playing tricks on you? How old are you? Strike that, don't need to know, and by selective quoting I meant you conveniently missing the conclusion to my paragraph which sums up the thrust of my reasoning:
Since I knew you cannot provide those links you might have considered I was being ironic. You really do not understand irony do you.

allnighter said:
allnighter said:
Israel should make it a 1st amendment never to replicate atrocities committed in the past like the Warsaw ghetto uprising subsequent collective punishment by Nazis in honour for all the Jews who met their deaths. It's shameful that its actions ignore that historical stain on our so-called civilised and compassionate conduct towards each other.That stain is now consigned to history books and belligerence is the order of the day regretfully.

It's madness

When you missed the above paragraph 'accidentally on purpose' when quoting me, you betrayed your select bias TBH. I should have expected that from you. Did you feel a bit 'uncomfortable' or perhaps you agreed with what I wrote but did not feel the need to share it in public? I do not know, and I don't care TBH. Only you know.

The paragraph is based on your presumption that the situation in Gaza has parallels with the Jewish uprising in Warsaw. Since I believe there are no parallels, for which I have provided my arguments, I ignored the paragraph.

league67

1,878 posts

202 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
jonby said:
I find it fascinating that people see this issue as black & white

Here's the Guardian's report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-...

Now I think it's fair to say that the Guardian is not exactly deemed as being pro-Israel in it's coverage

They lead with the headline about the school being hit - fair enough

The 7th paragraph down refers to the third incident in the last week or two of the UN publically admitting to finding caches of large weapons in it' schools. From the many references I've seen to these discoveries, reporting of all three incidents has been pro actively offered by the UNRWA, as opposed to them being accused and then reluctantly agreeing. So bearing in mind UNRWA's role in Gaza, one has to surely assume this is not scaremongering or accusations from 'the other side'

Now I'm not saying this makes bombing a school right, nor am I saying this particular school had weapons hidden, but surely when you keep hearing these stories it makes it harder to just take the blanket approach of 'Israel are committing war crimes, Israel are deliberately targeting innocents, etc' ? Plus as mentioned above, if Israel really are simply targeting as many innocent civilians and locations as they can, more than 15 people would die in a school sheltering 3,000 ?

So how can this issue be so black & white with regards to 'who's right & who's wrong' ?
Are there any possible set of events in which you'd say; 'yes IDF is committing war crimes'? You are doing the same thing as scuffers; 'I'm not saying ... BUT ...'. Typical apologist approach. Ask yourself, if Israeli school was hit and 15 Israeli kids died, would that be worth of more condemnation.

Just as you have extremist in Hamas, you have extremist in Knesset, who advocate complete cleansing of Gaza, to the point that 'mothers of snakes' should be exterminated. With internal pressures like those, at the highest level, I'm not at all surprised at brutality of IDF. The reply for school will be; 'we are not sure that it was us, and even if it was, hamas was hiding rockets there, and even if they didn't, we are sure that we saw some suspicious types congregating around that area'. For blinkered idiots that will be enough of a proof that they didn't do anything wrong.


The Don of Croy

5,975 posts

158 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
I'm trying to remember which conflict it was - recently - where the BBC News would preface the daily casualty sum with a phrase like 'unverified sources' or a derisory 'government spokesman said' which I took to be shorthand for 'these figures are no more accurate than the five day weather forecast but we're obliged to repeat them - DO NOT BELIEVE IT!'.

Was it Iraq?

I only mention it when hearing Fiona Bruce stifling the emotion when delivering the current headlines relating to casualties in Gaza/Israel. All stats taken at face value (all of a sudden?).

league67

1,878 posts

202 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
supersimple said:
Three UN schools now found to have been hiding Hamas rockets. UN supplied materials being used to build tunnels.

Looks as though the UN has gone native in Gaza.
supersimple indeed. Yes, UN forces are colluding with Hamas to destroy Israel.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
jonby said:
So how can this issue be so black & white with regards to 'who's right & who's wrong' ?
No idea, you've got to be have pretty poor eyesight to see any white hats on politicians of either side. People develop tribal loyalties on the basis of ideas of ethnicity, religion, politics. Some people hate and distrust America, or Islam, or Arab states. Some people frame it in simplistic terms of strength and weakness. Some people have racist ideas about the relative standards of behaviour they expect from Israelis and Palestinians. Some people are just a bit naïve about war, truth and propaganda. Some people think whatever their newspaper tells them to think.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
exocet ape said:
Why not give Palestine back to Palestinians?
You could... but where would the Jews go?

The Palestinians could at least rejoin their fellow Palestinians in Jordan
Anyone know how many Israeli's are "recent" Russian imports?

supersingle

3,205 posts

218 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
league67 said:
supersimple said:
Three UN schools now found to have been hiding Hamas rockets. UN supplied materials being used to build tunnels.

Looks as though the UN has gone native in Gaza.
supersimple indeed. Yes, UN forces are colluding with Hamas to destroy Israel.
Behave!

The idea that UN workers on the ground might go native is hardly that farfetched.

Lost soul

8,712 posts

181 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
jonby said:
I find it fascinating that people see this issue as black & white

Here's the Guardian's report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-...

Now I think it's fair to say that the Guardian is not exactly deemed as being pro-Israel in it's coverage

They lead with the headline about the school being hit - fair enough

The 7th paragraph down refers to the third incident in the last week or two of the UN publically admitting to finding caches of large weapons in it' schools. From the many references I've seen to these discoveries, reporting of all three incidents has been pro actively offered by the UNRWA, as opposed to them being accused and then reluctantly agreeing. So bearing in mind UNRWA's role in Gaza, one has to surely assume this is not scaremongering or accusations from 'the other side'
But of course all this is normally not reported and is almost hushed up by the media

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
league67 said:
jonby said:
I find it fascinating that people see this issue as black & white

Here's the Guardian's report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-...

Now I think it's fair to say that the Guardian is not exactly deemed as being pro-Israel in it's coverage

They lead with the headline about the school being hit - fair enough

The 7th paragraph down refers to the third incident in the last week or two of the UN publically admitting to finding caches of large weapons in it' schools. From the many references I've seen to these discoveries, reporting of all three incidents has been pro actively offered by the UNRWA, as opposed to them being accused and then reluctantly agreeing. So bearing in mind UNRWA's role in Gaza, one has to surely assume this is not scaremongering or accusations from 'the other side'

Now I'm not saying this makes bombing a school right, nor am I saying this particular school had weapons hidden, but surely when you keep hearing these stories it makes it harder to just take the blanket approach of 'Israel are committing war crimes, Israel are deliberately targeting innocents, etc' ? Plus as mentioned above, if Israel really are simply targeting as many innocent civilians and locations as they can, more than 15 people would die in a school sheltering 3,000 ?

So how can this issue be so black & white with regards to 'who's right & who's wrong' ?
Are there any possible set of events in which you'd say; 'yes IDF is committing war crimes'? You are doing the same thing as scuffers; 'I'm not saying ... BUT ...'. Typical apologist approach. Ask yourself, if Israeli school was hit and 15 Israeli kids died, would that be worth of more condemnation.

Just as you have extremist in Hamas, you have extremist in Knesset, who advocate complete cleansing of Gaza, to the point that 'mothers of snakes' should be exterminated. With internal pressures like those, at the highest level, I'm not at all surprised at brutality of IDF. The reply for school will be; 'we are not sure that it was us, and even if it was, hamas was hiding rockets there, and even if they didn't, we are sure that we saw some suspicious types congregating around that area'. For blinkered idiots that will be enough of a proof that they didn't do anything wrong.

I'm genuinely not quite sure what you're getting at in the last sentence of your first paragraph regarding Hamas - I can see couple of interpretations of the question. I'll answer it as best I can - personally, I would not condemn Hamas any more or less than I do now if 20 schools in Israel were bombed that killed 1000s of children, let alone 1 school with 15 deaths. My personal interpretation of the Hamas launched rockets is that their primary aim is to draw return fire from Israel, their secondary aim to cause 'some damage' on an indiscriminatory basis and their third, if 'they are lucky', is that the odd target with a load of Israelis is hit causing a load of deaths.

So whilst if the Hamas bombs caused more deaths it would be tragic (just as I find the deaths in Gaza tragic), it wouldn't make me more or less inclined to think Hamas are guilty of war crimes. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm interpreting the first bit of your second paragraph as suggesting that only SOME in Hamas are extremists ? That makes me smile, for all the wrong reasons. Hamas hide bombs in schools, fire them from hospitals, use the cement sent in for essential infrastructure to build tunnels, rape their citizens financially to the extent their leaders have become billionaires (the Arab press quote their wealth as being even higher than the western press reports) and IDF are the ones singled out for committing war crimes ?

I've deliberately left your most important question until last. Yes, of course there are instances I'd consider the IDF to have committed war crimes. I think it would be a struggle to find any war where both sides aren't guilty of them. I also think that post-war, when investigations are easier, lots of tragic mistakes are uncovered following most conflicts, from friendly fire to technical faults to incorrect information. To be clear that's not to say there aren't also straightforward war crimes in addition to mistakes, just that establishing which they are (if they are either) is pretty difficult right now

But in this instance, if it was established that the IDF had deliberately targeted a school, knowing civilians were there, with no suggestion of military personnel, military hardware, launch sites or tunnel entrances being present, but still sent a missile, that would IMO constitute a war crime. Actually, I almost don't care whether it's a war crime - I'd see it as plain wrong and would happily stand up and say 'not in my name' whether it was a crime or not

I'm assuming that IDF did send the bomb in question and the target was intentional though of course some news to the contrary may come out. On that basis, if IDF didn't believe it to have military significance, what exactly was their objective ? Killing for the sake of killing ? Really ? If it was, as I say I'd consider it a war crime but I simply don't see it as being their objective.

I'd reiterate previous posts btw that I don't actually think Israel should be adopting the policy that it does as personally, I think Israel would be better off not responding to Hamas goading, continuing to use Iron Dome to defeat most rockets, having some more casualties but then having the world's media on it's side as a result of it's restraint and then hopefully, a US/UN backed effort to demilitarise Gaza would result. I fully understand why they are taking a different approach however

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
The reports coming out are very clear.

A UN school was hit at 5am where 3000 people, all families that had fled their homes were sheltering .

No warning was given.

IDF tanks attacked the school.

So far 15 dead.

As for why the reporters are struggling to get near, Israel has form here and you know it.

War Crime. Plain and simple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin
You're obviously to young to remember this then.

RedTrident

8,290 posts

234 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
The reports so far do not suggest there were rockets being stored in this particular school do they? And even if there were why was there no warning?

There are some very simple questions that undermine the arguments of those who are trying to defend what has gone on here.

As for putting up a reference to something that I'm too young to maybe remember. Don't be daft ribena man. We're discussing the here and now. No distracting away from a war crime. Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
The reports so far do not suggest there were rockets being stored in this particular school do they? And even if there were why was there no warning?

There are some very simple questions that undermine the arguments of those who are trying to defend what has gone on here.

As for putting up a reference to something that I'm too young to maybe remember. Don't be daft ribena man. We're discussing the here and now. No distracting away from a war crime. Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.
If this was 2002 you would be falling for the proved propaganda just as you are now.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
The reports so far do not suggest there were rockets being stored in this particular school do they? And even if there were why was there no warning?

There are some very simple questions that undermine the arguments of those who are trying to defend what has gone on here.

As for putting up a reference to something that I'm too young to maybe remember. Don't be daft ribena man. We're discussing the here and now. No distracting away from a war crime. Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.
Really, you expect an instant explanation from IDF for every rocket fired ? That's how it works in war is it ? There is a difference between defending and saying wait til the facts emerge, let's see what the reason was

Meanwhile we do unequivocally know that Hamas have been storing rockets in multiple UN schools. That is as near a fact as anyone will get to in this conflict as it's the UNRWA themselves who have made the statements. Is that a war crime ? Is that defensible ? Not because two wrongs make a right, but because some balance appears to be missing here

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
Again, you keep missing what people tell you namely:

1. When people are confined and controlled by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
2. When people are treated like scum and humiliated by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
3.When living conditions are bad year in year out as a result of a blockade by another country, rebellion is the only outcome.
4. When you are bombed from three fronts every few years if you are a Gazan, or being deported to gas chambers if you are a Jew, rebellion is the only outcome.
5.When you create all of the above conditions, expect people to dig up tunnels, smuggle weapons and take up arms, and want to hurt you by any means necessary, and that my friend is called resistance.
6. Resistance by Jews in Warsaw was no different nor more 'honourable' than resistance by Palestinians who decided to fight or avenge the death of their loved ones.
7. The collective punishment meted out to unarmed Palestinian civilians like babies, toddlers, young boys and girls, mums and dads and grandparents is no different to collective punishment meted to thousands of unarmed Jews at the end of the battle of the Warsaw uprising.

Your attempt to side lining the above in favour of a futile detail like (the uprising was about deportation not the ghetto itself) shows you are deliberately trying to avoid acknowledging that maybe you are wrong in your understanding of what people are telling you. Now I can see why Mr Snap gets frustrated with you.

I know you love links so I can only oblige: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevent... Living conditions in the ghetto weren't exactly ideal.

As for your " What can Israel do about the 'missiles'?" I refer you to the 7 points listed above. Israel makes choices, and has to live with the consequences of those choices. The ball is in its court at the end of the day. All I know is the military solution never works, and will never work. Soon or late diplomacy will have to be utilised to get out this vicious circle of violence and innocent deaths.
It is difficult from the above not to conclude you support the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza to attach Israel. Does that right include the random killing of Israeli women and children?

As for your continued attempt to link the situation in Gaza with the Jewish up rising in Warsaw. I personally find it repugnant.

The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..

For different reasons others do seem to agree with me.
http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/crisisingaza/2009/0...

Mr Snap

2,364 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
league67 said:
supersimple said:
Three UN schools now found to have been hiding Hamas rockets. UN supplied materials being used to build tunnels.

Looks as though the UN has gone native in Gaza.
supersimple indeed. Yes, UN forces are colluding with Hamas to destroy Israel.
Israeli supplied materials are being used to build the tunnels as well. Presumably they have gone native, too...

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.
Yeah, because theres no form of palestinians lying before to con people like you.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-10-most-disturbing-pal...