Israeli

[WCZ]

what is the solution to this mess?

[psgcarey]

If the IDF know that the some UN schools have Hamas rockets stored in them, and as such make them legitimate IDF targets, why are they dropping leaflets telling the civilians to leave their homes, and then bombing the only places they have to go?

[jonby]

Mr Snap said:

league67 said:

supersimple said:

Three UN schools now found to have been hiding Hamas rockets. UN supplied materials being used to build tunnels.

Looks as though the UN has gone native in Gaza.

supersimple indeed. Yes, UN forces are colluding with Hamas to destroy Israel.

Israeli supplied materials are being used to build the tunnels as well. Presumably they have gone native, too...

Nope - Israel supplied cement to bow to pressure for humanitarian needs but it was then used by Hamas to build tunnels - so Hamas use the aid to militarise yet blame Israel for their conditions

As for the UNRWA, their motives and allegiances are questionable to put it mildly. Despite that, it's the UN themselves who have found & announced the presence of the rockets. That's just what they've found and been in a position to report. Imagine what else is going on there.

[Funkycoldribena]

psgcarey said:

If the IDF know that the some UN schools have Hamas rockets stored in them, and as such make them legitimate IDF targets, why are they dropping leaflets telling the civilians to leave their homes, and then bombing the only places they have to go?

Because Hamas then set up launchers on the roofs/grounds of these schools,very clever really because what is Israel meant to do?Let Hamas have cart blanche to fire all day from schools unscathed?

[jonby]

psgcarey said:

If the IDF know that the some UN schools have Hamas rockets stored in them, and as such make them legitimate IDF targets, why are they dropping leaflets telling the civilians to leave their homes, and then bombing the only places they have to go?

If Hamas didn't store weapons in or launch rockets from schools, do you think IDF would target them ? Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ? As such, do you think Hamas need to take any responsibility at all for schools being bombed ?

[league67]

jonby said:

If Hamas didn't store weapons in or launch rockets from schools, do you think IDF would target them ? Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ? As such, do you think Hamas need to take any responsibility at all for schools being bombed ?

I'll reply to your long post a bit later when I have more time.
The answer to your first two question is; 'Absolutely'. As for evidence, you have people here saying 'if IDF bombed school..'. The aim is quite simple. Collective punishment in order to influence behaviour; hit the tv station -check, hit the shelters - check, hit the power station - check, hit the hospital - check.

'For every our soldier we will kill hundred enemies'. Israeli government is too PR aware to state terrorizing population as the stated goal. If those pesky Palestinians just get the message and leave, as some people on this thread have suggested, there will be no problem with illegally occupied land. Win/Win.

As to Israel's PR tactics, you might want to hear what former Israeli minister have to say about it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-GVXunrbE4

[SR7492]

jonby said:

If Hamas didn't store weapons in or launch rockets from schools, do you think IDF would target them ? Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ? As such, do you think Hamas need to take any responsibility at all for schools being bombed ?

Get real!

How many journos are there that are also sheltering in some of there UN places? There are a few . . . how come none of them have reported rockets being fired from the said school by Hamas?

Anyhow, bombing a school which is a known UN shelter house with civilians inside is a massacre plain and simple. Anyone who is going to defend this has no morals on the loss of civilian life (or in this case Palestinian lives which the Israeli's are happy to wipe out)

As I have said before, IDF are trigger Effing Happy - shoot first, asks questions later, a mentality picked up from big brother US.

People need to wake up and realise the concentration camp strangle hold Israel has on Gaza and the WB.

[RedTrident]

Funkycoldribena said:

RedTrident said:

Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.

Yeah, because theres no form of palestinians lying before to con people like you.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-10-most-disturbing-pal...

So the school wasn't hit, if it was there was a warning and there were Hamas rockets stored there?

[FredClogs]

jonby said:

Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ?

The idf and mossad "get away" with all sorts of stuff, as do other armed services throughout the world, they simply do not give a fk and the frequent attempts by the UN and other international bodies to hold Israel to account for its violations of international law and war crimes are simply ignored. The real question to ask is why this is so?

[Mr Snap]

jonby said:

Nope - Israel supplied cement to bow to pressure for humanitarian needs but it was then used by Hamas to build tunnels - so Hamas use the aid to militarise yet blame Israel for their conditions

As for the UNRWA, their motives and allegiances are questionable to put it mildly. Despite that, it's the UN themselves who have found & announced the presence of the rockets. That's just what they've found and been in a position to report. Imagine what else is going on there.

And, in the absence of any proof of your argument, the UN did the same thing. They supplied aid and Hamas subverted it - nobody here would disagree with that.

But your ascribing blame to the UN is completely unfounded and it would appear that your intention is to be provocative. Nobody from the US down has questioned UNWRA's motives. If they, with their far superior intelligence, are not castigating UNWRA, you have absolutely no grounds to do so yourself.

What goes on in your imagination is not evidence. Stop contributing smears, it doesn't help anyone.

[FredClogs]

Any conversation about aid financing military campaigns is not complete without the details of the US (and the UKs) aid to Israel.

Israel is the USAs largest recipient of foreign aid, some $30billion last year, almost all this money is spent on machines and weaponry to kill Palestinians with...

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

We are trying to have a balanced conversation here aren't we?

[Funkycoldribena]

RedTrident said:

So the school wasn't hit, if it was there was a warning and there were Hamas rockets stored there?

I'll reserve judgement until the facts come out and not jump to conclusions.

On a side note does anyone know the figures of Hamas fighters killed?

[psgcarey]

jonby said:

If Hamas didn't store weapons in or launch rockets from schools, do you think IDF would target them ? Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ? As such, do you think Hamas need to take any responsibility at all for schools being bombed ?

Jonby and Funkycoldribena, sorry but you have missed my point.

Like you say IDF and Mossad know very well that Hamas will use the civilians as shields, and as you say they will, rightly, respond.
If they didn't force them to congregate in the one building, but let them remain spread out in various buildings it would surely minimise civilian casualties, rather than waiting for Hamas to launch an attack from a building that they have forced thousands to shelter in, and then flattening it, maximising casualties.

[league67]

Funkycoldribena said:

RedTrident said:

Getting very difficult for some on here to see the truth for what it is.

Yeah, because theres no form of palestinians lying before to con people like you.
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-10-most-disturbing-pal...

Good source that, David Hornik. You might want to read up about author before you portray that as 'The Truth'.

[s1962a]

Funkycoldribena said:

RedTrident said:

So the school wasn't hit, if it was there was a warning and there were Hamas rockets stored there?

I'll reserve judgement until the facts come out and not jump to conclusions.

On a side note does anyone know the figures of Hamas fighters killed?

Oh dear, the UN are absolutely fuming about this incident

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28558433

Not sure about the numbers of Hamas fighters, but an awful lot of innocent children have been killed.

[Mr Snap]

psgcarey said:

jonby said:

If Hamas didn't store weapons in or launch rockets from schools, do you think IDF would target them ? Do you think IDF would imagine it could 'get away with' bombing schools if no such evidence existed ? As such, do you think Hamas need to take any responsibility at all for schools being bombed ?

Jonby and Funkycoldribena, sorry but you have missed my point.

Like you say IDF and Mossad know very well that Hamas will use the civilians as shields, and as you say they will, rightly, respond.
If they didn't force them to congregate in the one building, but let them remain spread out in various buildings it would surely minimise civilian casualties, rather than waiting for Hamas to launch an attack from a building that they have forced thousands to shelter in, and then flattening it, maximising casualties.

That's a very interesting point. It would be interesting to see the timeline - as to when the knowledge of rockets was acquired. If it was purely because rockets were launched, it might be understandable; but if the location of rockets was known in advance of the attack (through intelligence - e.g. from UN transmissions), it would look extremely bad.

[jonby]

Mr Snap said:

jonby said:

Nope - Israel supplied cement to bow to pressure for humanitarian needs but it was then used by Hamas to build tunnels - so Hamas use the aid to militarise yet blame Israel for their conditions

As for the UNRWA, their motives and allegiances are questionable to put it mildly. Despite that, it's the UN themselves who have found & announced the presence of the rockets. That's just what they've found and been in a position to report. Imagine what else is going on there.

And, in the absence of any proof of your argument, the UN did the same thing. They supplied aid and Hamas subverted it - nobody here would disagree with that.

But your ascribing blame to the UN is completely unfounded and it would appear that your intention is to be provocative. Nobody from the US down has questioned UNWRA's motives. If they, with their far superior intelligence, are not castigating UNWRA, you have absolutely no grounds to do so yourself.

What goes on in your imagination is not evidence. Stop contributing smears, it doesn't help anyone.

I do not ascribing blame to the UN. Nor am I contributing smears. I am suggesting that if the UNRWA state they have found bombs in their locations, it seems reasonable to assume it to be true bearing in mind their position in the region


Bearing in mind how little reliable information there is that all sides can believe & agree on, that's a fundamentally important point. At the very least, the UNRWA are either incompetent or being taken advantage of or perhaps even being forced into doing things (or turning a blind eye) they don't want to. I literally haven't got a clue - how could any of us. But what I do know is that if the UNRWA say they have found bombs hidden by Hamas there, I believe it to be true

I think it reasonable to assume that whatever is going on there will be more extreme than what is reported, rather than less, hence my suggestion 'that's just what's been found and possible to report'.

My comments about UN are clearly mainly to establish that they are a reliable source of information where it is in support of Israeli claims, considering all the circumstances. I stand by the idea that their allegiances are questionable because I believe they are inherently conflicted hence again, believing what they have said about finding Hamas hidden military caches in their schools.

Of course the Palestinians become to an extent mere pawns of Hamas (although I wish a little more common sense could be used by those who seem to think all the deaths in Gaza are civilians) so I'm not trying to shift blame entirely, merely (and I've been consistent here) that Hamas must take some of the blame for schools in general being used as a target, just as Israel must take some responsibility as they fire the weapons

[league67]

s1962a said:

Funkycoldribena said:

RedTrident said:

So the school wasn't hit, if it was there was a warning and there were Hamas rockets stored there?

I'll reserve judgement until the facts come out and not jump to conclusions.

On a side note does anyone know the figures of Hamas fighters killed?

Oh dear, the UN are absolutely fuming about this incident

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28558433

Not sure about the numbers of Hamas fighters, but an awful lot of innocent children have been killed.

Why would you quote BBC, he wants facts, so if you can find statement by IDF that would be more appropriate. Not that Hamas mouth-peace aka BBC.

After all, the last school hit, it was only 'errant' shell landing into empty courtyard, the rest of the damage was, of course, Hamas' responsibility.

[s1962a]

I suspect a few are furiously thumbing through the Luntz Report for a media response to this mess.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel...

[franki68]

the numbers stuff is intriguing,the figures stated on tv by all channels are figures provided by the palestinians ,by an organization controlled by hamas.
Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .

the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.