Discussion
Mermaid said:
How long before an MH17 type of event that puts Israel o the defensive?
Look how precise the strikes arehttp://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/VID...
Any target hit is intended, obviously.
s1962a said:
Mermaid said:
How long before an MH17 type of event that puts Israel o the defensive?
Look how precise the strikes arehttp://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/VID...
Any target hit is intended, obviously.
Mermaid said:
s1962a said:
Mermaid said:
How long before an MH17 type of event that puts Israel o the defensive?
Look how precise the strikes arehttp://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/VID...
Any target hit is intended, obviously.
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
Again, you keep missing what people tell you namely:
1. When people are confined and controlled by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
2. When people are treated like scum and humiliated by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
3.When living conditions are bad year in year out as a result of a blockade by another country, rebellion is the only outcome.
4. When you are bombed from three fronts every few years if you are a Gazan, or being deported to gas chambers if you are a Jew, rebellion is the only outcome.
5.When you create all of the above conditions, expect people to dig up tunnels, smuggle weapons and take up arms, and want to hurt you by any means necessary, and that my friend is called resistance.
6. Resistance by Jews in Warsaw was no different nor more 'honourable' than resistance by Palestinians who decided to fight or avenge the death of their loved ones.
7. The collective punishment meted out to unarmed Palestinian civilians like babies, toddlers, young boys and girls, mums and dads and grandparents is no different to collective punishment meted to thousands of unarmed Jews at the end of the battle of the Warsaw uprising.
Your attempt to side lining the above in favour of a futile detail like (the uprising was about deportation not the ghetto itself) shows you are deliberately trying to avoid acknowledging that maybe you are wrong in your understanding of what people are telling you. Now I can see why Mr Snap gets frustrated with you.
I know you love links so I can only oblige: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevent... Living conditions in the ghetto weren't exactly ideal.
As for your " What can Israel do about the 'missiles'?" I refer you to the 7 points listed above. Israel makes choices, and has to live with the consequences of those choices. The ball is in its court at the end of the day. All I know is the military solution never works, and will never work. Soon or late diplomacy will have to be utilised to get out this vicious circle of violence and innocent deaths.
It is difficult from the above not to conclude you support the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza to attach Israel. Does that right include the random killing of Israeli women and children?1. When people are confined and controlled by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
2. When people are treated like scum and humiliated by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
3.When living conditions are bad year in year out as a result of a blockade by another country, rebellion is the only outcome.
4. When you are bombed from three fronts every few years if you are a Gazan, or being deported to gas chambers if you are a Jew, rebellion is the only outcome.
5.When you create all of the above conditions, expect people to dig up tunnels, smuggle weapons and take up arms, and want to hurt you by any means necessary, and that my friend is called resistance.
6. Resistance by Jews in Warsaw was no different nor more 'honourable' than resistance by Palestinians who decided to fight or avenge the death of their loved ones.
7. The collective punishment meted out to unarmed Palestinian civilians like babies, toddlers, young boys and girls, mums and dads and grandparents is no different to collective punishment meted to thousands of unarmed Jews at the end of the battle of the Warsaw uprising.
Your attempt to side lining the above in favour of a futile detail like (the uprising was about deportation not the ghetto itself) shows you are deliberately trying to avoid acknowledging that maybe you are wrong in your understanding of what people are telling you. Now I can see why Mr Snap gets frustrated with you.
I know you love links so I can only oblige: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevent... Living conditions in the ghetto weren't exactly ideal.
As for your " What can Israel do about the 'missiles'?" I refer you to the 7 points listed above. Israel makes choices, and has to live with the consequences of those choices. The ball is in its court at the end of the day. All I know is the military solution never works, and will never work. Soon or late diplomacy will have to be utilised to get out this vicious circle of violence and innocent deaths.
Your vile attempt at painting anyone who 'understands' the violence of a desperate people as 'supporters' for acts of terrorism is a known tactic used by people like you who morphed into 'uncritical cheerleaders' for Israel and its war machine.
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
There is violence of the oppressor and violence of the oppressed.The former can take all sorts of shapes and forms and is not necessary military actions, but also blockades, control, deprivation, segregation, discrimination etc... and the latter is unavoidable in a sense that the Gaza
Mrr T said:
As for your continued attempt to link the situation in Gaza with the Jewish up rising in Warsaw. I personally find it repugnant.
I find it repugnant that you deliberately ignore Israel's collective punishment policy meted to Gazans and the reckless killing of innocent unarmed civilians. It's disgusting that you adopt such a repulsive, reprehensible and vile attitude, probably because in your eyes, you placed a higher value to the lives of the poor unarmed Jews who were collectively SHOT in retaliation to the Warsaw uprising,as opposed to the Palestinian women and children massacred by Israel's bombs. Mrr T said:
The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..
Again you are being extremely stupid. I gave you the link to draw parallels between the terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza.You focussed on the deportation to the gas chambers which is off-topic (your speciality BTLOI). The link supported my position not yours! Stay on topic! Mrr T said:
For different reasons others do seem to agree with me.
http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/crisisingaza/2009/0...
Ok the link focuses on the 'genocide' claim. I never mentioned the word genocide. So stop attributing claims to posters who have never made them.http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/crisisingaza/2009/0...
Even your link above supports my position:
"There are, indeed, disturbing similarities between the two situations.
Pictures of the Warsaw Ghetto have been shown next to those of Gaza [GALLO/GETTY] The Warsaw Ghetto was composed of Jews forced out of their homes and herded into one small section of the city.
Gaza is composed largely of refugees and their descendants, most of whom were forced to flee their homes during the 1948 war.
Like the Ghetto, in the last decade the Gaza Strip has been surrounded by a barrier that has literally imprisoned 1.5 million in a territory that has become one of the most densely populated in the world.
Once the war started, Gazan civilians were trapped within a war zone, while Israel - crucially, with Egyptian help - had full command of the territory in and around Gaza. This situation prompted comparisons with the absolute Nazi control of the Ghetto and its surrounding area during the uprising.
Increasing restrictions on food, water and medical supplies by the Israeli military, and severe levels of malnutrition and unemployment "evoked" memories of the Nazi's slow strangulation of the Ghetto, as Richard Falk described it.
Even the tunnels of Gaza have been compared to those used by Jews to smuggle food and other essential goods into the Ghetto from the "Aryan side"
These comparisons reflect an intolerable situation that is not just a humanitarian disaster, but has included the systematic commission of war crimes, and through them, crimes against humanity. The fact that the situation in Gaza has existed for decades has deepened the suffering, and the level of culpability."
Which is exactly what I was stating, Not genocide, not extermination, but obviously deliberately ignored by Mrr T the expert in topic-avoidance technique!
psgcarey said:
If the IDF know that the some UN schools have Hamas rockets stored in them, and as such make them legitimate IDF targets, why are they dropping leaflets telling the civilians to leave their homes, and then bombing the only places they have to go?
We are told Hamas uses human shields and hides its rockets in schools, hospitals and the like. Such sanctimonious outrage ignores one crucial fact: Given the enormous population-density of Gaza, virtually anywhere Hamas hide their rockets is technically a civilian area. There is no space, no room for it be otherwise. This should act as a warning to Israel's collective punishment and massacre of Gazans who have nowhere to flee to , leaflets or no leaflets. Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 30th July 14:01
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
jonby said:
I do not ascribing blame to the UN. Nor am I contributing smears. I am suggesting that if the UNRWA state they have found bombs in their locations, it seems reasonable to assume it to be true bearing in mind their position in the region
Bearing in mind how little reliable information there is that all sides can believe & agree on, that's a fundamentally important point. At the very least, the UNRWA are either incompetent or being taken advantage of or perhaps even being forced into doing things (or turning a blind eye) they don't want to. I literally haven't got a clue - how could any of us. But what I do know is that if the UNRWA say they have found bombs hidden by Hamas there, I believe it to be true
I think it reasonable to assume that whatever is going on there will be more extreme than what is reported, rather than less, hence my suggestion 'that's just what's been found and possible to report'.
My comments about UN are clearly mainly to establish that they are a reliable source of information where it is in support of Israeli claims, considering all the circumstances. I stand by the idea that their allegiances are questionable because I believe they are inherently conflicted hence again, believing what they have said about finding Hamas hidden military caches in their schools.
Of course the Palestinians become to an extent mere pawns of Hamas (although I wish a little more common sense could be used by those who seem to think all the deaths in Gaza are civilians) so I'm not trying to shift blame entirely, merely (and I've been consistent here) that Hamas must take some of the blame for schools in general being used as a target, just as Israel must take some responsibility as they fire the weapons
The UN is on record saying it has found no rockets in the school targeted last night and the Israelis have only come up with "fire from the vicinity" not "rockets from the school." The schools where the rockets were found were miles from this school and mothballed for summer - the rockets were only discovered by UNWRA after they had moved in. To suggest UNRWA is complicit is utterly unfounded and nobody in the diplomatic community would accept your argument, it's just wrong.Bearing in mind how little reliable information there is that all sides can believe & agree on, that's a fundamentally important point. At the very least, the UNRWA are either incompetent or being taken advantage of or perhaps even being forced into doing things (or turning a blind eye) they don't want to. I literally haven't got a clue - how could any of us. But what I do know is that if the UNRWA say they have found bombs hidden by Hamas there, I believe it to be true
I think it reasonable to assume that whatever is going on there will be more extreme than what is reported, rather than less, hence my suggestion 'that's just what's been found and possible to report'.
My comments about UN are clearly mainly to establish that they are a reliable source of information where it is in support of Israeli claims, considering all the circumstances. I stand by the idea that their allegiances are questionable because I believe they are inherently conflicted hence again, believing what they have said about finding Hamas hidden military caches in their schools.
Of course the Palestinians become to an extent mere pawns of Hamas (although I wish a little more common sense could be used by those who seem to think all the deaths in Gaza are civilians) so I'm not trying to shift blame entirely, merely (and I've been consistent here) that Hamas must take some of the blame for schools in general being used as a target, just as Israel must take some responsibility as they fire the weapons
Your statement that things "may be more extreme than reported" is also one sided. You are saying one side is guilty (because you know so) without evidence, but that the other side are not guilty (because you believe so) on no evidence: This is not even handed, you are being demonsratbly prejudiced.
The UN is very probably the best source of evidence available in Gaza, it has the backing of all the major nations and to imply that its judgements are biased flies in the face of reality and undermines your objectivity. Your statements are not helping the Israeli position, it makes you look fundamentally biased and your arguments worthless.
allnighter said:
We are told Hamas uses human shields and hides its rockets in schools, hospitals and the like. Such sanctimonious outrage ignores one crucial fact: Given the enormous population-density of Gaza, virtually anywhere Hamas hide their rockets is technically a civilian area. There is no space, no room for it be otherwise. This however does not excuse Israel's collective punishment and massacre of Gazans who have nowhere to flee to , leaflets or no leaflets.
Yes I agree with you, but again the point I'm trying to make has been missed.Israel is forcing the Palestinians in to an ever decreasing area of the Gaza strip, increasing greatly the population density in those areas. They are doing so with full comprehension that Hamas will fire rockets from those areas, and with full comprehension that they will retaliate, and the most important point, with full comprehension that this will more than likely cause more civilian casualties than if they could spread themselves out across the whole of the Gaza strip.
Yes, Hamas has to take the blame for firing the rockets, but having been to Israel six times I am under no illusion that Israel know what they are doing.
Given the customers I visited when in Israel, I also know that if they wanted to carry out pinpoint attacks they could do so blindfolded and with one hand tied behind their back. They are more than capable of knocking down a building without doing the same to all the surrounding buildings as well, so why aren't they?
RedTrident said:
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
"These people were instructed to leave by the Israelis prior to the strike". Yep, sounds like the work of someone trying to kill everybody, doesn't it?Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
psgcarey said:
Given the customers I visited when in Israel, I also know that if they wanted to carry out pinpoint attacks they could do so blindfolded and with one hand tied behind their back. They are more than capable of knocking down a building without doing the same to all the surrounding buildings as well, so why aren't they?
you need to differentiate between planned missile strikes and returning artillery fire.the planned stuff we have all seen the video's of is very precise, you hit pretty much what you aim at.
Artillery is not quite the same thing, they are basically using unguided shells, and whilst at shortish range, they are still pretty accurate, the guy firing it often can't see what he is aiming at, he is working on being given a coordinate to aim at.
now, even if he is 100% accurate in his fire, the question them comes where do the coordinates come from?
from the sounds of it, the IDF responded to incoming fire from somewhere and returned fire on what they had as the location of the source of the incoming, I don't suppose it's that much of a stretch to be +- quite a few meters, and from what the UN are saying, it's right in the corner of their compound.
this does not excuse it in any way, just really trying see how it happened.
what we will probably never know is what was close to this school and who was doing what next door.
not really sure how you can mitigate this unless you just decide that you cannot engage with incoming fire, at which point all Hamas have to do is launch all their attacks next to UN compounds...
allnighter said:
We are told Hamas uses human shields and hides its rockets in schools, hospitals and the like. Such sanctimonious outrage ignores one crucial fact: Given the enormous population-density of Gaza, virtually anywhere Hamas hide their rockets is technically a civilian area.
Really? Please. So, space is so tight that Hamas just must hide rockets in schools and hospitals? They regret the casulties too I suppose? Come on Allnighter, don't even try that. Everyone is well aware that Hamas are massive fans of dead Palestinians; look at the way it is working in their favor on here alone. That was not even a good try.Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 30th July 14:01
franki68 said:
the numbers stuff is intriguing,the figures stated on tv by all channels are figures provided by the palestinians ,by an organization controlled by hamas.
Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .
the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.
Yet these glaring facts will simply be ignored and the rhetoric continued; sit back and watch.Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .
the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.
Jimbeaux said:
RedTrident said:
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
"These people were instructed to leave by the Israelis prior to the strike". Yep, sounds like the work of someone trying to kill everybody, doesn't it?Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
That's an intentional misquote you're making there - you even had to delete the incriminating words to make it.
You really are beneath contempt Jimbeaux.
Please don't pass it off with another "aw shucks! that's a good one". You've done it several times and it's worn thin.
Hiding your bigoted form of hypocrisy views behind a veneer of bluff humour doesn't work. It just makes you look increasingly nasty and a corrupting influence on PH.
But, what the hey! I bet we'd get on like a house on fire over a couple of beers!
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
RedTrident said:
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
"These people were instructed to leave by the Israelis prior to the strike". Yep, sounds like the work of someone trying to kill everybody, doesn't it?Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
That's an intentional misquote you're making there - you even had to delete the incriminating words to make it.
You really are beneath contempt Jimbeaux.
Please don't pass it off with another "aw shucks! that's a good one". You've done it several times and it's worn thin.
Hiding your bigoted form of hypocrisy views behind a veneer of bluff humour doesn't work. It just makes you look increasingly nasty and a corrupting influence on PH.
But, what the hey! I bet we'd get on like a house on fire over a couple of beers!
- There was no rocket fire from the IDF
- Hamas did it
- There were rockets being hidden in the building
- The IDF don't target women and children so they couldn't have done this
- Actually, there was a warning given before the strike.. oops.. just contradicted everything
In the meantime innocent children are dying at the hands of this incompetence.
franki68 said:
the numbers stuff is intriguing,the figures stated on tv by all channels are figures provided by the palestinians ,by an organization controlled by hamas.
Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .
the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.
You are quite right, it's not that bad. They should say thanks to IDF for not killing more. Out of over thousand killed you come up with 50 names repeated? What does that prove to you? I'm surprised that in all ensuing chaos number is not significantly higher. Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .
the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.
If you had any decency you'd be ashamed of that post. Do you have picture of Ayelet Shaked to pray to? After all those under 14 will get to 18 (if not killed before) and will fit the 'profile'. So might as well get rid of them now, you know, just in case, cause they'll fit the profile in the future.
Mr Snap said:
Jimbeaux said:
RedTrident said:
At least 19 Palestinians were killed and about 90 injured early on Wednesday when a UN school sheltering displaced people was hit by shells during a second night of relentless bombardment that followed an Israeli warning of a protracted military campaign.
Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
"These people were instructed to leave by the Israelis prior to the strike". Yep, sounds like the work of someone trying to kill everybody, doesn't it?Pierre Krahenbuhl, commissioner-general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, condemned “in in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces”.
He said in a statement: “Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN-designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.
“We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts.
“It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.”
It was the sixth time that UNRWA schools had been struck, he added. “Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.”
That's an intentional misquote you're making there - you even had to delete the incriminating words to make it.
You really are beneath contempt Jimbeaux.
Please don't pass it off with another "aw shucks! that's a good one". You've done it several times and it's worn thin.
Hiding your bigoted form of hypocrisy views behind a veneer of bluff humour doesn't work. It just makes you look increasingly nasty and a corrupting influence on PH.
But, what the hey! I bet we'd get on like a house on fire over a couple of beers!
Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 30th July 15:10
s1962a said:
I really find it hard to keep up with these IDF sympathisers:-
- There was no rocket fire from the IDF
- Hamas did it
- There were rockets being hidden in the building
- The IDF don't target women and children so they couldn't have done this
- Actually, there was a warning given before the strike.. oops.. just contradicted everything
In the meantime innocent children are dying at the hands of this incompetence.
calm down dear!- There was no rocket fire from the IDF
- Hamas did it
- There were rockets being hidden in the building
- The IDF don't target women and children so they couldn't have done this
- Actually, there was a warning given before the strike.. oops.. just contradicted everything
In the meantime innocent children are dying at the hands of this incompetence.
1) it was not IDF rocket fire - UN are suggesting it was artillery shell(s)
2) nobody has said that have they?
3) well, it's been true of other UN schools, but once again, nobody has said this.
4) they were not targeted as such, IDF are suggesting it was returning fire.
5) which part of it was not a planned/targeted strike are you not getting?
and as for bringing up the usual emotive think of the children line, the 15 deaths have not been broken down so a bit premature don't you think?
bit like the line that all the victims are civilians, yet 80%+ are all young men in the age range of your typical Hamas militant.
welcome to the fog or war!
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