Israeli

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RedTrident

8,290 posts

234 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
So Jim, you going to acknowledge you read it wrong or did you intentionally mess with the quote to suit your agenda?

Or are you the type who'll just attempt to divert away and pick an argument because once again you've been found out?

allnighter

6,663 posts

221 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
Yep, been a corrupting influence on PH for about 10 years. So pained that I do not meet your standards for being above contempt; not sure how I will live with myself. That said, what army intenet on killing as many civilians as possible would drop any warning leaflets?? Wake up please. Sarcasm aside from both parties, we probably would get on in person TBH.
I am sure that I will get on with you alright Jim. I see you as the lovable sometimes patronising rogue who loves to lurk on the 'dark side' but you have a heart of gold really.
People should never take the 'tinternet' persona so seriously. We have different world-views and truthfully it will be boring if we all adhered to the same doctrine.Your presence on here is proof that things need spicing up from time to time, typical Yank! tongue out

RedTrident

8,290 posts

234 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
yet 80%+ are all young men in the age range of your typical Hamas militant.
What's the typical age range of a Hamas militant and where'd you get the stat from that 80% of those killed were young men? Genuinely interested by the way.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
Scuffers said:
yet 80%+ are all young men in the age range of your typical Hamas militant.
What's the typical age range of a Hamas militant and where'd you get the stat from that 80% of those killed were young men? Genuinely interested by the way.
initially, got them from this post:

franki68 said:
the numbers stuff is intriguing,the figures stated on tv by all channels are figures provided by the palestinians ,by an organization controlled by hamas.
Historically not very reliable ,jenin for example palestinians reported 500 deaths,as did the numerous newspapers.The UN investigation said the death toll for about 40 odd)
the number of children reported killed last week on one channel 4 news item put the figure at 50% of the then casualties (800) ,this week apparently its now a total of 178 or 240 so it gets confusing.
there are some very unlucky chaps who the israleis have managed to kill twice,at least 50 people are listed twice on the casualty lists ,one poor sod has been killed 3 times.
Numerous names mentioned as civilians are known hamas fighters ,and the bulk of those 'civilians' killed happen to fit the profile of hamas fighters,young single men aged 18-28
the following are based on al jazeera figures so these are not pro-isralei in any way.82% of those killed so far are male of which 16% are under 17
bearing the fact that about 50% of gazans are under 14 I will let anyone with a brain cell work out if israel is targetting women and children .

the other oddity is why some newspapers published pictures of victims of the syrian crisis as victims of this war.Worrying to say the least.

kitz

328 posts

176 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Any fool knows that Hamas resistance fighters have

No mothers
No fathers
No brothers
No sisters
No cousins
No nieces
No nephews
No wife
No loved ones

They are all mad monsters who love death ...

Any fool knows that posters on this thread who have a dog in the fight
never hunt in packs .

Meanwhile the slaughter continues .

psgcarey

611 posts

161 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
you need to differentiate between planned missile strikes and returning artillery fire.

the planned stuff we have all seen the video's of is very precise, you hit pretty much what you aim at.

Artillery is not quite the same thing, they are basically using unguided shells, and whilst at shortish range, they are still pretty accurate, the guy firing it often can't see what he is aiming at, he is working on being given a coordinate to aim at.

now, even if he is 100% accurate in his fire, the question them comes where do the coordinates come from?

from the sounds of it, the IDF responded to incoming fire from somewhere and returned fire on what they had as the location of the source of the incoming, I don't suppose it's that much of a stretch to be +- quite a few meters, and from what the UN are saying, it's right in the corner of their compound.

this does not excuse it in any way, just really trying see how it happened.

what we will probably never know is what was close to this school and who was doing what next door.

not really sure how you can mitigate this unless you just decide that you cannot engage with incoming fire, at which point all Hamas have to do is launch all their attacks next to UN compounds...
Israel is pretty much the No.1 manufacturer of drones on the planet. Armed with missiles, they could provide a much more accurate reply to incoming fire.

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
For the sake of argument, what would happen if the people of Bradford were firing thousands of rockets into Leeds. People were dying. Property is being destroyed.

At what stage would the people of Leeds strike back if they had the means? And would they show restraint when they did so?

It is so easy for people to judge the Israelis, as they are the stronger, more effective force.

I certainly recognise that life in Gaza for Palestinians is pretty grim.

But the only solution to this will involve Hamas giving it up and stopping the rocket attacks. Simple really.

I do not see why Hamas continues to poke the Israeli bear with spikes when all the bear does is lash back , harder and more destructively.

Hamas should just pack it in. Then the political process can start again.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
I do not see why Hamas continues to poke the Israeli bear with spikes when all the bear does is lash back , harder and more destructively.
Because it puts the Israeli government in a lose-lose situation - it has to choose between being unpopular at home and looking weak or being unpopular abroad and stoking hatred amongst the rest of the Middle East. It costs a few martyrs, but they're expendable.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
RedTrident said:
So Jim, you going to acknowledge you read it wrong or did you intentionally mess with the quote to suit your agenda?

Or are you the type who'll just attempt to divert away and pick an argument because once again you've been found out?
You mean I paraphrased a quote and left out the word "homes"? I sure did, so sorry. The shelters they were living in may just constitute homes; the other person making the quote called them homes instead of shelters. Are you saying they were told to leave their homes and were then hit in a shelter or is it possible "their homes" and "sleeping shelter" were the same thing? You tell me.

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
Jimbeaux said:
Yep, been a corrupting influence on PH for about 10 years. So pained that I do not meet your standards for being above contempt; not sure how I will live with myself. That said, what army intenet on killing as many civilians as possible would drop any warning leaflets?? Wake up please. Sarcasm aside from both parties, we probably would get on in person TBH.
I am sure that I will get on with you alright Jim. I see you as the lovable sometimes patronising rogue who loves to lurk on the 'dark side' but you have a heart of gold really.
People should never take the 'tinternet' persona so seriously. We have different world-views and truthfully it will be boring if we all adhered to the same doctrine.Your presence on here is proof that things need spicing up from time to time, typical Yank! tongue out
Thanks Allnighter; I too have enjoyed our years of jousting (interweb bloodlessness). beer As to typical Yank, nah, we are atypical here in the "dirty South". smile



Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 30th July 16:33

Foppo

2,344 posts

123 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
And the political process has been going on since 1947.It has never got anywhere.American foreign ministers keep travelling backwards and forward ringing their hands.Did Tony Blair had a suggestion which was dejected?

The Jews will never give up their promised land to the Arabs.Maybe one day a two state arrangement which the majority of the Palestinians would like.Wiping Israel off the map which Hamas want forget it.

jonby

5,357 posts

156 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Mr Snap said:
jonby said:
I do not ascribing blame to the UN. Nor am I contributing smears. I am suggesting that if the UNRWA state they have found bombs in their locations, it seems reasonable to assume it to be true bearing in mind their position in the region


Bearing in mind how little reliable information there is that all sides can believe & agree on, that's a fundamentally important point. At the very least, the UNRWA are either incompetent or being taken advantage of or perhaps even being forced into doing things (or turning a blind eye) they don't want to. I literally haven't got a clue - how could any of us. But what I do know is that if the UNRWA say they have found bombs hidden by Hamas there, I believe it to be true

I think it reasonable to assume that whatever is going on there will be more extreme than what is reported, rather than less, hence my suggestion 'that's just what's been found and possible to report'.

My comments about UN are clearly mainly to establish that they are a reliable source of information where it is in support of Israeli claims, considering all the circumstances. I stand by the idea that their allegiances are questionable because I believe they are inherently conflicted hence again, believing what they have said about finding Hamas hidden military caches in their schools.

Of course the Palestinians become to an extent mere pawns of Hamas (although I wish a little more common sense could be used by those who seem to think all the deaths in Gaza are civilians) so I'm not trying to shift blame entirely, merely (and I've been consistent here) that Hamas must take some of the blame for schools in general being used as a target, just as Israel must take some responsibility as they fire the weapons
The UN is on record saying it has found no rockets in the school targeted last night and the Israelis have only come up with "fire from the vicinity" not "rockets from the school." The schools where the rockets were found were miles from this school and mothballed for summer - the rockets were only discovered by UNWRA after they had moved in. To suggest UNRWA is complicit is utterly unfounded and nobody in the diplomatic community would accept your argument, it's just wrong.

Your statement that things "may be more extreme than reported" is also one sided. You are saying one side is guilty (because you know so) without evidence, but that the other side are not guilty (because you believe so) on no evidence: This is not even handed, you are being demonsratbly prejudiced.

The UN is very probably the best source of evidence available in Gaza, it has the backing of all the major nations and to imply that its judgements are biased flies in the face of reality and undermines your objectivity. Your statements are not helping the Israeli position, it makes you look fundamentally biased and your arguments worthless.
I've admitted in several posts I'm fundamentally biased. I've used the actual word biased. I don't look biased, I am biased. It doesn't make my arguments worthless

I've never suggested 'one side are not guilty'. I say 'Israel must take some responsibility' in the very last line that you repost !

To say things 'may be more extreme than reported' is not one sided. We heard of a new incident of UN schools housing weapons today. If I'd have made my statement yesterday, then today's discovery would have shown the truth was more extreme than we knew then. If a new discovery is made tomorrow, it will show things to be more extreme than the facts as we know them today. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that more similar incidents will come to light, either because they haven't been discovered yet or because Hamas are managing to keep a lid on them. They can't be less extreme than reported. It's common sense to assume more discoveries will come to light

I've consistently said that Hamas are doing the Palestinians no favours in hiding rockets in schools. It makes their position weaker. I stand by that position. Your refusal to acknowledge that fairly basic premise speaks volumes

As for the UNRWA, they are not the same as the UN. They have historically consistently denied their facilities ever being used by Hamas. In the incident a week or two ago, they handed over the weapons they found 'to the local authorities'. In the second incident, they 'lost' the weapons. It's taken the third (publically known about) incident for them to think about using a UN weapons disposal team. So are they incompetent, abused or complicit ? Or some other option I can't think of ?


Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
kitz said:
Any fool knows that Hamas resistance fighters have

No mothers
No fathers
No brothers
No sisters
No cousins
No nieces
No nephews
No wife
No loved ones

They are all mad monsters who love death ...

Any fool knows that posters on this thread who have a dog in the fight
never hunt in packs .

Meanwhile the slaughter continues .
We have been wasting out time reading the likes of Aristotle, Schweitzer, and Locke, when this is readily available.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
I despair! Where did I state that anywhere in this thread? Where did I state that I support acts of terrorism against civilians? Could you please provide any evidence, because I personally find it repugnant that you associate my contributions with a tacit support for acts of terrorism.
Your vile attempt at painting anyone who 'understands' the violence of a desperate people as 'supporters' for acts of terrorism is a known tactic used by people like you who morphed into 'uncritical cheerleaders' for Israel and its war machine.
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
There is violence of the oppressor and violence of the oppressed.The former can take all sorts of shapes and forms and is not necessary military actions, but also blockades, control, deprivation, segregation, discrimination etc... and the latter is unavoidable in a sense that the Gaza residents prisoners are waging a life or death struggle.There is no moral equivalence between the world's 4th most powerful military power invading and subjugating a poverty stricken oppressed people desperately fighting for their lives in the miserable 32 mile strip of a modern concentration camp they call home.
So you sympathise but do not support.

allnighter said:
Mrr T said:
As for your continued attempt to link the situation in Gaza with the Jewish up rising in Warsaw. I personally find it repugnant.
I find it repugnant that you deliberately ignore Israel's collective punishment policy meted to Gazans and the reckless killing of innocent unarmed civilians. It's disgusting that you adopt such a repulsive, reprehensible and vile attitude, probably because in your eyes, you placed a higher value to the lives of the poor unarmed Jews who were collectively SHOT in retaliation to the Warsaw uprising,as opposed to the Palestinian women and children massacred by Israel's bombs.
.
Words such a "collective punishment" and "reckless" suggest you have made your mind up about the matter.
Obviously I know you have made up your mind. That was irony again.
We know very little about what is happening in Gaza. Information from inside Gaza is strictly controlled by Hamas. Information from the IDF, for reasons I fully understand, is almost non-existent.
I just believe if Hamas stopped try to send bombers and missiles into Israel and concentrated on improving the lives of the citizens of Gaza it would be a good start.

Edited by Mrr T on Wednesday 30th July 16:58

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
It is difficult from the above not to conclude you support the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza to attach Israel. Does that right include the random killing of Israeli women and children?
I despair! Where did I state that anywhere in this thread? Where did I state that I support acts of terrorism against civilians? Could you please provide any evidence, because I personally find it repugnant that you associate my contributions with a tacit support for acts of terrorism.
Your vile attempt at painting anyone who 'understands' the violence of a desperate people as 'supporters' for acts of terrorism is a known tactic used by people like you who morphed into 'uncritical cheerleaders' for Israel and its war machine.
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
There is violence of the oppressor and violence of the oppressed.The former can take all sorts of shapes and forms and is not necessary military actions, but also blockades, control, deprivation, segregation, discrimination etc... and the latter is unavoidable in a sense that the Gaza residents prisoners are waging a life or death struggle.There is no moral equivalence between the world's 4th most powerful military power invading and subjugating a poverty stricken oppressed people desperately fighting for their lives in the miserable 32 mile strip of a modern concentration camp they call home.
Hey fellows, I believe your posts may be the wrong way around. Unless this is akin to that classic Star Trek episode where Kirk and Spock met their opposites from the parallel universe. smile

Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 30th July 16:50

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
How about when Woman A and her husband have been beating the st out of each other for decades and you can't trust a bloody word either of them says?

Edited by otolith on Wednesday 30th July 16:57

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
What I dont understand in these claim and counter claims of responsibility, is that for some decades incoming fire detection radar has been available (first invented by the Germans about 20 -30 years ago from memory.

It should be easy enough to triangulate the positions of the discharge (artillery or Rocket). Presumably the israelis have such kit. Why not then make the information available? Of course if you have it and dont disclose it then its fairly obvious what happened imho.
Oooh look the Israelis have it apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-battery_radar

So all they have to do is disclose the data from those incidents no?
You are referring to conter battery coordinates. That may be a good idea. Apply the coordinates to a map and show where the launch orginated. Of course if that were to substantiate an Israeli claim, it would quickly be dismissed as a Zionist fabrication through tech deception. smile

s1962a

5,262 posts

161 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
Hey fellows, I believe your posts may be the wrong way around. Unless this is akin to that classic Star Trek episode where Kirk and Spock met their opposites from the parallel universe. smile

Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 30th July 16:50
Sorry I presssed submit rather than preview. Corrected now.

Mrr T

12,151 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
Mrr T said:
The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..
Again you are being extremely stupid. I gave you the link to draw parallels between the terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza.You focussed on the deportation to the gas chambers which is off-topic (your speciality BTLOI). The link supported my position not yours! Stay on topic!
.
So you argued that in both Gaza and the Jewish uprising in Warsaw was because of the terrible conditions in the ghetto. You even posted a link to show how bad it was in Warsaw. But the history is clear the uprising in Warsaw in 1943 was nothing to do with conditions. The Ghetto had been in existence since 1940. The uprising was because of the deportations. I despair you do not even seem to remember you own argument.