Israeli

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Discussion

s1962a

5,319 posts

162 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
Jimbeaux said:
You are referring to conter battery coordinates. That may be a good idea. Apply the coordinates to a map and show where the launch orginated. Of course if that were to substantiate an Israeli claim, it would quickly be dismissed as a Zionist fabrication through tech deception. smile
Indeed, given the grief they are getting in the press one would think it would be one of the first things to do, of course if they want to keep the mechanism of their hardware classified they can show the UN and other independent nations that can be trusted to convey the facts.
Otherwise they will stand guilty as charged by the world community imho.
Do you recall the incident a few days ago where we got a lot of information from the IDF with details of how a hamas rocket misfired into a school, and that is what killed lots of people? It's a bit strange that incident had so much information, and there is radio silence on others.

JuniorD

8,627 posts

223 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
There's much talk of Hamas tunnels, but scant evidence of their extent on TV.

With the Israeli rationale of attributing the deaths of civilians to the actions of Hamas, do they consider the IDF's actions are to blame for the subsequent attacks on synagogues?

s1962a

5,319 posts

162 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
Guam said:
Jimbeaux said:
You are referring to conter battery coordinates. That may be a good idea. Apply the coordinates to a map and show where the launch orginated. Of course if that were to substantiate an Israeli claim, it would quickly be dismissed as a Zionist fabrication through tech deception. smile
Indeed, given the grief they are getting in the press one would think it would be one of the first things to do, of course if they want to keep the mechanism of their hardware classified they can show the UN and other independent nations that can be trusted to convey the facts.
Otherwise they will stand guilty as charged by the world community imho.
Do you recall the incident a few days ago where we got a lot of information from the IDF with details of how a hamas rocket misfired into a school, and that is what killed lots of people? It's a bit strange that incident had so much information, and there is radio silence on others.
This is what i'm referring to.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/4939007...



So come on, give us specific data about today's bombings in the refuge centre and the busy marketplace.

NelsonR32

1,685 posts

171 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
s1962a said:
Missles hidden in cucumbers probably...

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

154 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
There's much talk of Hamas tunnels, but scant evidence of their extent on TV.
Plenty here-
http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=tunnels

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

154 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
kitz said:
Any fool knows that Hamas resistance fighters have

No mothers
No fathers
No brothers
No sisters
No cousins
No nieces
No nephews
No wife
No loved ones

They are all mad monsters who love death ...

Any fool knows that posters on this thread who have a dog in the fight
never hunt in packs .

Meanwhile the slaughter continues .
You talk a lot of crap but write lovely poems.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

274 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Funkycoldribena said:
JuniorD said:
There's much talk of Hamas tunnels, but scant evidence of their extent on TV.
Plenty here-
http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=tunnels
have to say I was somewhat surprised at the construction and scale of their tunnels...

was looking at one on the BBC that was made from precast reinforced concrete sections and was some 3 miles long and 20M deep, that's some tunnel!

you can see why Israel are so pissed off with them, they were badgered into supplying cement and concrete for them to make houses etc, and this is what it get's used for.

realistically, they must have been digging these tunnels for years.


JuniorD

8,627 posts

223 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Anyone know how many satellites IDF might have placed above Gaza? With their resources, you'd think they'd have one or two, and would therefore have a very close eye on movement and deployment of missiles. Otherwise, the IDF intellegence must be petty wk. But hey, who needs intelligence when you go bomb the frig out of a place with total impunity and no regard for collateral death and damage.

NelsonR32

1,685 posts

171 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Funkycoldribena said:
kitz said:
Any fool knows that Hamas resistance fighters have

No mothers
No fathers
No brothers
No sisters
No cousins
No nieces
No nephews
No wife
No loved ones

They are all mad monsters who love death ...

Any fool knows that posters on this thread who have a dog in the fight
never hunt in packs .

Meanwhile the slaughter continues .
You talk a lot of crap but write lovely poems.
There you go again...

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

154 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
NelsonR32 said:
There you go again...
You really don't like my humour do you?

skyrover

12,673 posts

204 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
JuniorD said:
Anyone know how many satellites IDF might have placed above Gaza? With their resources, you'd think they'd have one or two, and would therefore have a very close eye on movement and deployment of missiles. Otherwise, the IDF intellegence must be petty wk. But hey, who needs intelligence when you go bomb the frig out of a place with total impunity and no regard for collateral death and damage.
If they were not concerned about collateral damage the death toll would be much much higher.

The Israeli's could literally wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to.

Incidentally they have killed less in two weeks than Isis killed in 48 hours in Iraq

Mr Snap

2,364 posts

157 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
jonby said:
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that more similar incidents will come to light, either because they haven't been discovered yet or because Hamas are managing to keep a lid on them. They can't be less extreme than reported. It's common sense to assume more discoveries will come to light

I've consistently said that Hamas are doing the Palestinians no favours in hiding rockets in schools. It makes their position weaker. I stand by that position. Your refusal to acknowledge that fairly basic premise speaks volumes

As for the UNRWA, they are not the same as the UN. They have historically consistently denied their facilities ever being used by Hamas. In the incident a week or two ago, they handed over the weapons they found 'to the local authorities'. In the second incident, they 'lost' the weapons. It's taken the third (publically known about) incident for them to think about using a UN weapons disposal team. So are they incompetent, abused or complicit ? Or some other option I can't think of ?
Then it's equally "reasonable" to say things like 'lizards are plotting world rule' (which they aren't, just in case you're worried). You can't just invent stuff and say it's "reasonable' - it's the very opposite of reason. From our position in the UK it's best to say we don't know enough until evidence either way has been provided. You don't have any evidence. Anything else is pouring petrol on the fire. If you think that's a good idea, you're a fool.

I have also said Hamas are not helping the Palestinians, I've said they're terrorists and I've said their actions are wrong. Your saying that I refuse to acknowledge these things is absolutely untrue and you can go back and check my contributions word for word on that. What I have said is that the Israelis are reaping what they've sewn, if they hadn't treated the Palestinians so badly they wouldn't be in this situation - you can check me on that, too.

I've already explained why UNRWA had to hand the arms over to Hamas when the first lot were found, it was the only logical action in the circumstances. If you'd been placed in the same circumstances, you too would have had to do the same if you wanted to live - and if you wish to understand the logic of that you can go back 20 odd pages and check that too.

In the second situation, losing the arms is also explicable. Once UNWRA has found arms the only thing they can do is to walk away from them and, in a Hamas controlled area, tell Hamas. Why? Because by hanging around you're liable to get dead very very quickly at the hands of either side if you are found. What do you UNWRA should do if they find arms, leave one of their trained nurses to stand by and guard them FFS? UNRWA are unarmed, they cannot be seen to get involved in handling arms. The only thing they can do is inform Hamas as outlined in my explanation 20 pages ago. To suggest otherwise is again foolish. This isn't somewhere in the Home Counties, where you can tell the local bobby, it's a war zone and different rules apply - especially if you want to live through it.\

Step back and think about what you're saying.




Mr_B

10,480 posts

243 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Solidarity from Tower Hamlets council.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11001371/...

Mr Snap

2,364 posts

157 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Jimbeaux said:
Yep, been a corrupting influence on PH for about 10 years. So pained that I do not meet your standards for being above contempt; not sure how I will live with myself. Which part was "bigoted"? Would hate to miss that. That said, what army intenet on killing as many civilians as possible would drop any warning leaflets?? Wake up please. Sarcasm aside from both parties, we probably would get on in person TBH.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 30th July 15:10
Ah, the curtain gets pulled aside a little.

Lots of armies have dropped leaflets cynically warning civilians to move.

The Nazis did it over London and the Allies responded in kind. And I'm sure you're already aware that the US leaflets, advising Japanese to leave Hiroshima, were dropped only three or four days after the bomb itself...

You know no history and this means you can be taken to pieces if you want to pick historical arguments. I'd drop that tack if I was you.

Sarcasm aside, we most certainly wouldn't.





JuniorD

8,627 posts

223 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
JuniorD said:
Anyone know how many satellites IDF might have placed above Gaza? With their resources, you'd think they'd have one or two, and would therefore have a very close eye on movement and deployment of missiles. Otherwise, the IDF intellegence must be petty wk. But hey, who needs intelligence when you go bomb the frig out of a place with total impunity and no regard for collateral death and damage.
If they were not concerned about collateral damage the death toll would be much much higher.

The Israeli's could literally wipe Gaza off the map if they wanted to.

Incidentally they have killed less in two weeks than Isis killed in 48 hours in Iraq
Apologists seem to credit Isreal for not annihilating the Gazans, but merely decimating them. It's like crediting someone for just raping their victim but not murdering them.

They couldn't wipe Gaza of the map if they wanted to. They would be stopped before they could. Instead they are doing it by attrition, bit by bit and by as much as they can justify/get away with each time.

As for comparisons with ISIS, well that's a different thread. But nevertheless, ISIS don't masquerade as a just, peaceful democracy and we would expect nothing less than their barbarism.

Silent1

19,761 posts

235 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
Jimbeaux said:
You are referring to conter battery coordinates. That may be a good idea. Apply the coordinates to a map and show where the launch orginated. Of course if that were to substantiate an Israeli claim, it would quickly be dismissed as a Zionist fabrication through tech deception. smile
Indeed, given the grief they are getting in the press one would think it would be one of the first things to do, of course if they want to keep the mechanism of their hardware classified they can show the UN and other independent nations that can be trusted to convey the facts.
Otherwise they will stand guilty as charged by the world community imho.
Lets not forget that either side have been wrong (for all we know they have been purposefully deceptive with their statements to the press):
Israel now admit Hamas had nothing to do with the killing of the 3 Israeli boys but they certainly aren't making an effort to tell people unlike when they were so sure Hamas were involved and responsible...
I don't really need to go into the times hamas have been wrong/lied

Mr Snap

2,364 posts

157 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Guam said:
Jimbeaux said:
You are referring to conter battery coordinates. That may be a good idea. Apply the coordinates to a map and show where the launch orginated. Of course if that were to substantiate an Israeli claim, it would quickly be dismissed as a Zionist fabrication through tech deception. smile
Indeed, given the grief they are getting in the press one would think it would be one of the first things to do, of course if they want to keep the mechanism of their hardware classified they can show the UN and other independent nations that can be trusted to convey the facts.
Otherwise they will stand guilty as charged by the world community imho.
Not often we agree.

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

224 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
allnighter said:
We are told Hamas uses human shields and hides its rockets in schools, hospitals and the like. Such sanctimonious outrage ignores one crucial fact: Given the enormous population-density of Gaza, virtually anywhere Hamas hide their rockets is technically a civilian area. There is no space, no room for it be otherwise. This should act as a warning to Israel's collective punishment and massacre of Gazans who have nowhere to flee to , leaflets or no leaflets.

Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 30th July 14:01
AN,

I thinks there is farmland in Gaza.


jonby

5,357 posts

157 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
quotequote all
Mr Snap said:
jonby said:
I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that more similar incidents will come to light, either because they haven't been discovered yet or because Hamas are managing to keep a lid on them. They can't be less extreme than reported. It's common sense to assume more discoveries will come to light

I've consistently said that Hamas are doing the Palestinians no favours in hiding rockets in schools. It makes their position weaker. I stand by that position. Your refusal to acknowledge that fairly basic premise speaks volumes

As for the UNRWA, they are not the same as the UN. They have historically consistently denied their facilities ever being used by Hamas. In the incident a week or two ago, they handed over the weapons they found 'to the local authorities'. In the second incident, they 'lost' the weapons. It's taken the third (publically known about) incident for them to think about using a UN weapons disposal team. So are they incompetent, abused or complicit ? Or some other option I can't think of ?
Then it's equally "reasonable" to say things like 'lizards are plotting world rule' (which they aren't, just in case you're worried). You can't just invent stuff and say it's "reasonable' - it's the very opposite of reason. From our position in the UK it's best to say we don't know enough until evidence either way has been provided. You don't have any evidence. Anything else is pouring petrol on the fire. If you think that's a good idea, you're a fool.

I have also said Hamas are not helping the Palestinians, I've said they're terrorists and I've said their actions are wrong. Your saying that I refuse to acknowledge these things is absolutely untrue and you can go back and check my contributions word for word on that. What I have said is that the Israelis are reaping what they've sewn, if they hadn't treated the Palestinians so badly they wouldn't be in this situation - you can check me on that, too.

I've already explained why UNRWA had to hand the arms over to Hamas when the first lot were found, it was the only logical action in the circumstances. If you'd been placed in the same circumstances, you too would have had to do the same if you wanted to live - and if you wish to understand the logic of that you can go back 20 odd pages and check that too.

In the second situation, losing the arms is also explicable. Once UNWRA has found arms the only thing they can do is to walk away from them and, in a Hamas controlled area, tell Hamas. Why? Because by hanging around you're liable to get dead very very quickly at the hands of either side if you are found. What do you UNWRA should do if they find arms, leave one of their trained nurses to stand by and guard them FFS? UNRWA are unarmed, they cannot be seen to get involved in handling arms. The only thing they can do is inform Hamas as outlined in my explanation 20 pages ago. To suggest otherwise is again foolish. This isn't somewhere in the Home Counties, where you can tell the local bobby, it's a war zone and different rules apply - especially if you want to live through it.\

Step back and think about what you're saying.
First of all an apology - I see I've been confusing 2 or 3 different people as one and the same, following on from a post I made on this subject which several different people have replied to / commented on. In particular, with regards to Hamas taking an element of responsibility

With regards to your last couple of paragraphs, surely they amplify my argument that UNRWA is conflicted ? I've never said that they are outright 'bad'. I've suggested for instance (in the post you quote) that one possible explanation is that they are abused. As in the status of their properties is abused by Hamas storing weapons in them. But they are still conflicted - do they publicly condemn (as they have done in at least 3 instances) and risk their own lives (for the reasons you quote) or say nothing in the interests of the greater good ? I can't think of a much better example of a conflict of interest and as such, that to an extent, compromises them. I still struggle to see how that argument doesn't hold water. I see other conflicts too with UNRWA - it's unavoidable

But in context, the only reason that issue ever came up in my post was to point out that if UNRWA say they have found bombs in their schools, I imagine we would all believe it to be true as opposed to say Fox News or IDF making the same statement. You made a post in a conversation I was having with someone else (which of course is great) but in context of the previous exchanges, the whole UNRWA issue would be more apparent. As I say, apologies for mixing you up with someone else and I can understand how in isolation the context would look different

The first bit of your post however i just don't get. To use your example, if lizards were found to be plotting to take over the UK one day then Germany 5 days later, then France 3 days after that, I think it reasonable to assume that on the balance of probability, we would find out a few days later that they were plotting to take over other European countries too (yes I know, the UK isn't actually a country !). Not 100% definite, but likely

I've not invented anything. I've suggested that we believe the UNRWA when they announce what they have found. There have been 3 incidents in less than 2 weeks. If there;s a 4th or 5th incident, that's more extreme than 3 incidents. Probability suggests there will be more incidents. That would make it more extreme a situation than we know. Am I speculating - yes. Wild speculation - no. To compare my stance to one suggesting lizards are plotting to take over the world is only making one person look foolish IMO