Discussion
Mrr T said:
allnighter said:
Mrr T said:
The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..
Again you are being extremely stupid. I gave you the link to draw parallels between the terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza.You focussed on the deportation to the gas chambers which is off-topic (your speciality BTLOI). The link supported my position not yours! Stay on topic! .
Seeing that I am at the end of my tether with you I will give it one more shot then I will give up. It no use debating at this level:
allnighter said:
: Israel's blockade of Gaza and the bombardment of its civilians has parallels with Nazi Germany's Warsaw Ghetto when Jews organised armed resistance against the Germans with smuggled and home made weapons (sounds familiar doesn't it?) between 1941 and 1943. The underground resistance consisted of about 100 Jewish groups (google Z.O.B).The fighting organization is unified, strategies are planned, underground bunkers and tunnels are built(Sounds familiar?), and roof-top passages are constructed. The Jews of the Warsaw ghetto prepare to fight to the end.
In April 1943, after the German troops and police entered the ghetto,the Warsaw ghetto uprising began when 750 Jewish fighters fought the heavily armed and well trained Germans and were able to hold out for nearly a month before the revolt ended in May 16th 1943. The Germans managed to crush the revolt and 7000 Jews were shot(sounds familiar?).
Like I said nobody knows fully well what it's like to live in a ghetto, be treated like second class citizens, be humiliated, and be deprived of the basic human rights that we take for granted like Jews do.
So why is Israel replicating the Warsaw experience on Palestinians in Gaza and wonder why resistance by a radical organisation is supported by ordinary Palestinians who were at the receiving end of Israel's war machine, and not only that, give more excuses to recruit more Palestinian Jihadists to join the ranks of Hamas to avenge the death of their loved ones be they babies, toddlers, mothers, fathers,aunts, uncles etc...)
Israel should make it a 1st amendment never to replicate atrocities committed in the past like the Warsaw ghetto uprising subsequent collective punishment by Nazis in honour for all the Jews who met their deaths. It's shameful that its actions ignore that historical stain on our so-called civilised and compassionate conduct towards each other.That stain is now consigned to history books and belligerence is the order of the day regretfully.
It's madness
In April 1943, after the German troops and police entered the ghetto,the Warsaw ghetto uprising began when 750 Jewish fighters fought the heavily armed and well trained Germans and were able to hold out for nearly a month before the revolt ended in May 16th 1943. The Germans managed to crush the revolt and 7000 Jews were shot(sounds familiar?).
Like I said nobody knows fully well what it's like to live in a ghetto, be treated like second class citizens, be humiliated, and be deprived of the basic human rights that we take for granted like Jews do.
So why is Israel replicating the Warsaw experience on Palestinians in Gaza and wonder why resistance by a radical organisation is supported by ordinary Palestinians who were at the receiving end of Israel's war machine, and not only that, give more excuses to recruit more Palestinian Jihadists to join the ranks of Hamas to avenge the death of their loved ones be they babies, toddlers, mothers, fathers,aunts, uncles etc...)
Israel should make it a 1st amendment never to replicate atrocities committed in the past like the Warsaw ghetto uprising subsequent collective punishment by Nazis in honour for all the Jews who met their deaths. It's shameful that its actions ignore that historical stain on our so-called civilised and compassionate conduct towards each other.That stain is now consigned to history books and belligerence is the order of the day regretfully.
It's madness
Mrr T said:
Your history of the Jewish Ghetto up rising in Warsaw seems to be a bit selective.
Between July and September 1942 the German SS had removed between 250,000 to 300,00 largely Jews from the Warsaw ghetto to extermination camps of whom very few survived the war.
The return of the German SS to removing a further 5,000 in January 1942 lead to the uprising..
During the uprising the estimates I have seen it suggest the casualties from the fighting where closer to 12,000.
Also you forget to mention after the uprising was crushed the German SS removed the remaining 50,000 Jews from the ghetto to extermination camps.
So let me see you are comparing the death of about 1,000 in Gazza with a conflict in which about 400,000 Jewish where killed. Of those 400,000 killed by the German SS 97% where clearly unarmed since they where in extermination camps.
Perhaps to help my understanding of the parallels you can provide links to
a) The extermination camps in Isreal?
b) The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto lobbing missiles at Germans civilians?
Right so already and from the outset you went on a tangent and talked about the post Warsaw ghetto fate of the Jews. I was not referring to that nor did I argue about what happened to Jews who were deported from the ghetto.That's another subject altogether. I was focusing on the ghetto and the living conditions in it, and what people will do to mount an uprising, whether for fear of being exterminated in gas chambers like the Warsaw experience, or being bombed to smithereens in Gaza period.You failed on that accountBetween July and September 1942 the German SS had removed between 250,000 to 300,00 largely Jews from the Warsaw ghetto to extermination camps of whom very few survived the war.
The return of the German SS to removing a further 5,000 in January 1942 lead to the uprising..
During the uprising the estimates I have seen it suggest the casualties from the fighting where closer to 12,000.
Also you forget to mention after the uprising was crushed the German SS removed the remaining 50,000 Jews from the ghetto to extermination camps.
So let me see you are comparing the death of about 1,000 in Gazza with a conflict in which about 400,000 Jewish where killed. Of those 400,000 killed by the German SS 97% where clearly unarmed since they where in extermination camps.
Perhaps to help my understanding of the parallels you can provide links to
a) The extermination camps in Isreal?
b) The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto lobbing missiles at Germans civilians?
allnighter said:
Typical Mrr T's response, provide links bla bla bla, ignoring the thrust of my argument and applying selective quoting to distort what's conveyed. Did you fully understand what is conveyed or do you select part of what I said and try to twist it to your suitability?
We are fully aware of the half a million Jews killed, Google can provide those statistics.So stop being daft and obtuse and see the similarities between confining Jews to a ghetto, just like Palestinians were confined to an open prison called Gaza, treating Jews like scum, just like Palestinians are treated like scum, Jews smuggling arms, just like Palestinians are doing the same, Jews building tunnels, just like Palestinians are doing in Gaza, Jews mounting an armed resistance against a well armed German army , just like Palestinian Hamas operatives are doing at the moment against a far superior military, Navy, and Air force.
Now you do understand the concept of 'resistance' don't you?Like shooting your enemy down, lobbing missiles, creating terror, sabotage, destruction etc...
When you are surrounded by a superior and an overwhelming force, resistance can take all sorts of shapes and forms.
The main point you missed, either deliberately or unintentionally, and I suspect it's the former TBH, is that from a humanitarian point of you (and I could be wasting my time discussing this with you anyway) is that Israel, a democratic state, should hold better values and ethics knowing the history of Jews and how they were persecuted and were mistreated by the Germans.
They should never replicate tactics like the ones I listed above, blockading nearly 2 Million people, provoking an uprising, creating terrible conditions for Palestinians who result to desperate measures (like joining radicals and taking up arms), and bombing the cr@ap out of them as if Palestinian lives are worthless, and trying to legitimise it by claiming self-defence in the interest of national security, just like the Germans were doing with their lies and propaganda against Jews.
Israel should know its values and morals better and not trample over them and forget the past fate of 6 millions who died a horrible death.
You want to quantify and compare statistics to support your twisted agenda and justify the current campaign of state sponsored terrorism, I do not! Statistics like that mean f k all if the leaders of a nation of a previously persecuted race are indulging in persectuing another race employing more or less the same tactics (as listed above) and "fine-tuning" these tactics in line (or just above) with what is "acceptable" to Western media and Israel's backers.
Now go and stick your fingers in your ears and shout lalala, regurgitate the same cr@ap and nonesense to support your pro-Israel bias and pretend nobody is disagreeing with you.
We are fully aware of the half a million Jews killed, Google can provide those statistics.So stop being daft and obtuse and see the similarities between confining Jews to a ghetto, just like Palestinians were confined to an open prison called Gaza, treating Jews like scum, just like Palestinians are treated like scum, Jews smuggling arms, just like Palestinians are doing the same, Jews building tunnels, just like Palestinians are doing in Gaza, Jews mounting an armed resistance against a well armed German army , just like Palestinian Hamas operatives are doing at the moment against a far superior military, Navy, and Air force.
Now you do understand the concept of 'resistance' don't you?Like shooting your enemy down, lobbing missiles, creating terror, sabotage, destruction etc...
When you are surrounded by a superior and an overwhelming force, resistance can take all sorts of shapes and forms.
The main point you missed, either deliberately or unintentionally, and I suspect it's the former TBH, is that from a humanitarian point of you (and I could be wasting my time discussing this with you anyway) is that Israel, a democratic state, should hold better values and ethics knowing the history of Jews and how they were persecuted and were mistreated by the Germans.
They should never replicate tactics like the ones I listed above, blockading nearly 2 Million people, provoking an uprising, creating terrible conditions for Palestinians who result to desperate measures (like joining radicals and taking up arms), and bombing the cr@ap out of them as if Palestinian lives are worthless, and trying to legitimise it by claiming self-defence in the interest of national security, just like the Germans were doing with their lies and propaganda against Jews.
Israel should know its values and morals better and not trample over them and forget the past fate of 6 millions who died a horrible death.
You want to quantify and compare statistics to support your twisted agenda and justify the current campaign of state sponsored terrorism, I do not! Statistics like that mean f k all if the leaders of a nation of a previously persecuted race are indulging in persectuing another race employing more or less the same tactics (as listed above) and "fine-tuning" these tactics in line (or just above) with what is "acceptable" to Western media and Israel's backers.
Now go and stick your fingers in your ears and shout lalala, regurgitate the same cr@ap and nonesense to support your pro-Israel bias and pretend nobody is disagreeing with you.
Mrr T said:
So if I can summarise my understanding of your argument.
You argue:
1. Israel made the population of Gaza live in a ghetto and therefore they have a right to fight against Israel.
2. This is similar to the situation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto when they took up arms against the Germans.
3 Therefore the Israeli are similar to the Germans.
I will not argue against the first point. I may not completely agree but but we are all entitled to our opinions.
The problem I have is with your second argument. The Germans has started to move Polish Jews into Warsaw from 1940.
Just before the deportation of 250,000 to 300,000 in 1942 the Germans assured the leaders of the Jews in Warsaw that deportations where to resettlements in the East. The leaders resistance in Warsaw voted not to resist the deportation so long as they where only moved to labour camps.
The uprising only started in Mid 1943 when it was clear to the resistance leaders leaders that the deportations where to death camps and the deportations started again.
I would argue the uprising in Warsaw was about the deportation of Jews to death camps not about living in a ghetto.
As for moral authority I ask, as other have, what should Israel do about the missiles?
You see my point? You are again arguing a point I did not raise.I never claimed the uprising was about living in the ghetto, why can't you understand? It's frustrating to say the least. Ok let's move on...You argue:
1. Israel made the population of Gaza live in a ghetto and therefore they have a right to fight against Israel.
2. This is similar to the situation of Jews in the Warsaw ghetto when they took up arms against the Germans.
3 Therefore the Israeli are similar to the Germans.
I will not argue against the first point. I may not completely agree but but we are all entitled to our opinions.
The problem I have is with your second argument. The Germans has started to move Polish Jews into Warsaw from 1940.
Just before the deportation of 250,000 to 300,000 in 1942 the Germans assured the leaders of the Jews in Warsaw that deportations where to resettlements in the East. The leaders resistance in Warsaw voted not to resist the deportation so long as they where only moved to labour camps.
The uprising only started in Mid 1943 when it was clear to the resistance leaders leaders that the deportations where to death camps and the deportations started again.
I would argue the uprising in Warsaw was about the deportation of Jews to death camps not about living in a ghetto.
As for moral authority I ask, as other have, what should Israel do about the missiles?
allnighter said:
Again, you keep missing what people tell you namely:
1. When people are confined and controlled by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
2. When people are treated like scum and humiliated by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
3.When living conditions are bad year in year out as a result of a blockade by another country, rebellion is the only outcome.
4. When you are bombed from three fronts every few years if you are a Gazan, or being deported to gas chambers if you are a Jew, rebellion is the only outcome.
5.When you create all of the above conditions, expect people to dig up tunnels, smuggle weapons and take up arms, and want to hurt you by any means necessary, and that my friend is called resistance.
6. Resistance by Jews in Warsaw was no different nor more 'honourable' than resistance by Palestinians who decided to fight or avenge the death of their loved ones.
7. The collective punishment meted out to unarmed Palestinian civilians like babies, toddlers, young boys and girls, mums and dads and grandparents is no different to collective punishment meted to thousands of unarmed Jews at the end of the battle of the Warsaw uprising.
Your attempt to side lining the above in favour of a futile detail like (the uprising was about deportation not the ghetto itself) shows you are deliberately trying to avoid acknowledging that maybe you are wrong in your understanding of what people are telling you. Now I can see why Mr Snap gets frustrated with you.
I know you love links so I can only oblige: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevent... Living conditions in the ghetto weren't exactly ideal.
As for your " What can Israel do about the 'missiles'?" I refer you to the 7 points listed above. Israel makes choices, and has to live with the consequences of those choices. The ball is in its court at the end of the day. All I know is the military solution never works, and will never work. Soon or late diplomacy will have to be utilised to get out this vicious circle of violence and innocent deaths.
1. When people are confined and controlled by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
2. When people are treated like scum and humiliated by another state, rebellion is the only outcome.
3.When living conditions are bad year in year out as a result of a blockade by another country, rebellion is the only outcome.
4. When you are bombed from three fronts every few years if you are a Gazan, or being deported to gas chambers if you are a Jew, rebellion is the only outcome.
5.When you create all of the above conditions, expect people to dig up tunnels, smuggle weapons and take up arms, and want to hurt you by any means necessary, and that my friend is called resistance.
6. Resistance by Jews in Warsaw was no different nor more 'honourable' than resistance by Palestinians who decided to fight or avenge the death of their loved ones.
7. The collective punishment meted out to unarmed Palestinian civilians like babies, toddlers, young boys and girls, mums and dads and grandparents is no different to collective punishment meted to thousands of unarmed Jews at the end of the battle of the Warsaw uprising.
Your attempt to side lining the above in favour of a futile detail like (the uprising was about deportation not the ghetto itself) shows you are deliberately trying to avoid acknowledging that maybe you are wrong in your understanding of what people are telling you. Now I can see why Mr Snap gets frustrated with you.
I know you love links so I can only oblige: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevent... Living conditions in the ghetto weren't exactly ideal.
As for your " What can Israel do about the 'missiles'?" I refer you to the 7 points listed above. Israel makes choices, and has to live with the consequences of those choices. The ball is in its court at the end of the day. All I know is the military solution never works, and will never work. Soon or late diplomacy will have to be utilised to get out this vicious circle of violence and innocent deaths.
Mrr T said:
It is difficult from the above not to conclude you support the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza to attach Israel. Does that right include the random killing of Israeli women and children?
As for your continued attempt to link the situation in Gaza with the Jewish up rising in Warsaw. I personally find it repugnant.
The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..
For different reasons others do seem to agree with me.
http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/crisisingaza/2009/0...
You see? You keep missing what I'am telling you and you persist on going off topic. Mention extermination, keep mentioning extermination, distort what the other poster is saying and hopefully you will cause confusion and create a smokescreen: This is what it's like debating with you pal!As for your continued attempt to link the situation in Gaza with the Jewish up rising in Warsaw. I personally find it repugnant.
The Jewish up rising in Warsaw was against an oppressor who's aim was the extermination of all the Jewish inhabitants not because of the conditions in the Ghettos. I am amused you proved a link showing terrible conditions in the Warsaw ghetto to support my position..
For different reasons others do seem to agree with me.
http://www.aljazeera.com/focus/crisisingaza/2009/0...
allnighter said:
Ok the link focuses on the 'genocide' claim. I never mentioned the word genocide. So stop attributing claims to posters who have never made them.
Even your link above supports my position:
Even your link above supports my position:
Mrr T's ALJAZEERA link said:
"There are, indeed, disturbing similarities between the two situations.
Pictures of the Warsaw Ghetto have been shown next to those of Gaza GALLO/GETTY The Warsaw Ghetto was composed of Jews forced out of their homes and herded into one small section of the city.
Gaza is composed largely of refugees and their descendants, most of whom were forced to flee their homes during the 1948 war.
Like the Ghetto, in the last decade the Gaza Strip has been surrounded by a barrier that has literally imprisoned 1.5 million in a territory that has become one of the most densely populated in the world.
Once the war started, Gazan civilians were trapped within a war zone, while Israel - crucially, with Egyptian help - had full command of the territory in and around Gaza. This situation prompted comparisons with the absolute Nazi control of the Ghetto and its surrounding area during the uprising.
Increasing restrictions on food, water and medical supplies by the Israeli military, and severe levels of malnutrition and unemployment "evoked" memories of the Nazi's slow strangulation of the Ghetto, as Richard Falk described it.
Even the tunnels of Gaza have been compared to those used by Jews to smuggle food and other essential goods into the Ghetto from the "Aryan side"
These comparisons reflect an intolerable situation that is not just a humanitarian disaster, but has included the systematic commission of war crimes, and through them, crimes against humanity. The fact that the situation in Gaza has existed for decades has deepened the suffering, and the level of culpability." [/i]
Pictures of the Warsaw Ghetto have been shown next to those of Gaza GALLO/GETTY The Warsaw Ghetto was composed of Jews forced out of their homes and herded into one small section of the city.
Gaza is composed largely of refugees and their descendants, most of whom were forced to flee their homes during the 1948 war.
Like the Ghetto, in the last decade the Gaza Strip has been surrounded by a barrier that has literally imprisoned 1.5 million in a territory that has become one of the most densely populated in the world.
Once the war started, Gazan civilians were trapped within a war zone, while Israel - crucially, with Egyptian help - had full command of the territory in and around Gaza. This situation prompted comparisons with the absolute Nazi control of the Ghetto and its surrounding area during the uprising.
Increasing restrictions on food, water and medical supplies by the Israeli military, and severe levels of malnutrition and unemployment "evoked" memories of the Nazi's slow strangulation of the Ghetto, as Richard Falk described it.
Even the tunnels of Gaza have been compared to those used by Jews to smuggle food and other essential goods into the Ghetto from the "Aryan side"
These comparisons reflect an intolerable situation that is not just a humanitarian disaster, but has included the systematic commission of war crimes, and through them, crimes against humanity. The fact that the situation in Gaza has existed for decades has deepened the suffering, and the level of culpability." [/i]
allnighter in response to Mrr T's statement above said:
I despair! Where did I state that anywhere in this thread? Where did I state that I support acts of terrorism against civilians? Could you please provide any evidence, because I personally find it repugnant that you associate my contributions with a tacit support for acts of terrorism.
Your vile attempt at painting anyone who 'understands' the violence of a desperate people as 'supporters' for acts of terrorism is a known tactic used by people like you who morphed into 'uncritical cheerleaders' for Israel and its war machine.
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
There is violence of the oppressor and violence of the oppressed.The former can take all sorts of shapes and forms and is not necessary military actions, but also blockades, control, deprivation, segregation, discrimination etc... and the latter is unavoidable in a sense that the Gaza residents prisoners are waging a life or death struggle.There is no moral equivalence between the world's 4th most powerful military power invading and subjugating a poverty stricken oppressed people desperately fighting for their lives in the miserable 32 mile strip of a modern concentration camp they call home.
I find it repugnant that you deliberately ignore Israel's collective punishment policy meted to Gazans and the reckless killing of innocent unarmed civilians. It's disgusting that you adopt such a repulsive, reprehensible and vile attitude, probably because in your eyes, you placed a higher value to the lives of the poor unarmed Jews who were collectively SHOT in retaliation to the Warsaw uprising,as opposed to the Palestinian women and children massacred by Israel's bombs.
Your vile attempt at painting anyone who 'understands' the violence of a desperate people as 'supporters' for acts of terrorism is a known tactic used by people like you who morphed into 'uncritical cheerleaders' for Israel and its war machine.
Let me put it in simple terms: I understand why woman A plunged a knife into her abusive husband's heart, but I do not support nor condone her violent act. Capisce?
There is violence of the oppressor and violence of the oppressed.The former can take all sorts of shapes and forms and is not necessary military actions, but also blockades, control, deprivation, segregation, discrimination etc... and the latter is unavoidable in a sense that the Gaza residents prisoners are waging a life or death struggle.There is no moral equivalence between the world's 4th most powerful military power invading and subjugating a poverty stricken oppressed people desperately fighting for their lives in the miserable 32 mile strip of a modern concentration camp they call home.
I find it repugnant that you deliberately ignore Israel's collective punishment policy meted to Gazans and the reckless killing of innocent unarmed civilians. It's disgusting that you adopt such a repulsive, reprehensible and vile attitude, probably because in your eyes, you placed a higher value to the lives of the poor unarmed Jews who were collectively SHOT in retaliation to the Warsaw uprising,as opposed to the Palestinian women and children massacred by Israel's bombs.
Mrr T said:
Words such a "collective punishment" and "reckless" suggest you have made your mind up about the matter.
Obviously I know you have made up your mind. That was irony again.
We know very little about what is happening in Gaza. Information from inside Gaza is strictly controlled by Hamas. Information from the IDF, for reasons I fully understand, is almost non-existent.
I just believe if Hamas stopped try to send bombers and missiles into Israel and concentrated on improving the lives of the citizens of Gaza it would be a good start.
You know nothing about irony mate, you just use weasel words that's all.Obviously I know you have made up your mind. That was irony again.
We know very little about what is happening in Gaza. Information from inside Gaza is strictly controlled by Hamas. Information from the IDF, for reasons I fully understand, is almost non-existent.
I just believe if Hamas stopped try to send bombers and missiles into Israel and concentrated on improving the lives of the citizens of Gaza it would be a good start.
Just like the Al Jazeera link (Which you provided!) stated that there are similarities between the Warsaw ghetto and Gaza.You tried desperately to create a diversion throughout the debate which smacks of intellectual dishonesty. You refute things I have never stated, and you go off topic more times than Ronnie Corbett.
Edited by allnighter on Thursday 31st July 01:52
toppstuff said:
For the sake of argument, what would happen if the people of Bradford were firing thousands of rockets into Leeds. People were dying. Property is being destroyed.
At what stage would the people of Leeds strike back if they had the means? And would they show restraint when they did so?
It is so easy for people to judge the Israelis, as they are the stronger, more effective force.
I certainly recognise that life in Gaza for Palestinians is pretty grim.
But the only solution to this will involve Hamas giving it up and stopping the rocket attacks. Simple really.
I do not see why Hamas continues to poke the Israeli bear with spikes when all the bear does is lash back , harder and more destructively.
Hamas should just pack it in. Then the political process can start again.
I dunno. Is Leeds continuing to seize land that belongs to the inhabitants of Bradford? At what stage would the people of Leeds strike back if they had the means? And would they show restraint when they did so?
It is so easy for people to judge the Israelis, as they are the stronger, more effective force.
I certainly recognise that life in Gaza for Palestinians is pretty grim.
But the only solution to this will involve Hamas giving it up and stopping the rocket attacks. Simple really.
I do not see why Hamas continues to poke the Israeli bear with spikes when all the bear does is lash back , harder and more destructively.
Hamas should just pack it in. Then the political process can start again.
Mermaid said:
Jimbeaux said:
They cannot be a part of the solution if their stated goal is Israel's eradication. If it were to just gain peace for the Palestinians, maybe so, but that is not the case. I lean toward the other poster's idea of working with Fatah and marginalizing Hamas. That, however, will likely be difficult if Hamas maintains its weaponry.
Israel wants to eradicate Hamas, and then work on Fatah. If Hamas had better weaponry, would Israel be more reasonable?RedTrident said:
The tide in the UK has turned against Israel. YouGov poll has 62% believing Israel is committing war crimes. It's even beginning to turn in the US with a Pew Research Center poll showing that among 18 to 29-year old Americans, 29% blame Israel more for the current violence, while 21% blame Hamas.
Wonder how many sleeping child will be murdered whilst in their mother's arms tonight. Bizarrely, I don't think it'll be who began the conflict as the clear terrorists that will be responsible for the death of innocent women and children.
Israel are not going to beat Hamas by bombing them imo.
Again, what is Israel to do, sit there while being rocketed? And don't come with the Palestinian peace plan, Hamas cares nothing for the Palestinians, they want to eradicate Israel.Wonder how many sleeping child will be murdered whilst in their mother's arms tonight. Bizarrely, I don't think it'll be who began the conflict as the clear terrorists that will be responsible for the death of innocent women and children.
Israel are not going to beat Hamas by bombing them imo.
Jimbeaux said:
They cannot be a part of the solution if their stated goal is Israel's eradication. If it were to just gain peace for the Palestinians, maybe so, but that is not the case. I lean toward the other poster's idea of working with Fatah and marginalizing Hamas. That, however, will likely be difficult if Hamas maintains its weaponry.
If Hamas cannot be part of the solution then by the same token the members of the Knesset who are for the extermination of all Palestinians also cannot be involved in the peace plan. In fact if one was to apply Israelis requirements on themselves then any of the Knesset members who are for the extermination of anyone shouldn't be involved.On another note the two things I find incredibly repulsive are the groups of people who gather on the hills overlooking gaza whooping and hollering as the bombs hit gaza and the other is civilians writing messages on the materiel being fired into gaza, neither of these should be accepted in a first world democratic country.
The constant shouting of anti-semitism to anyone who supports gaza is pretty pathetic too, Fox News are particularly egregious in this regard, it strikes me that Zionism and the Jewish religion are viewed as one and the same by a lot of Israeli supporters.
I'm also just making it clear I'm on no side in particular but am by virtue of an unlikely set of coincidences involved with one side in a relevant capacity.
Terrorist apartheid IDF dead 56
Concentration camp victims 1363
I took a walk yesterday ..
When I returned I calculated I could have walked through Gaza in about
5 hours .
The talk about human shields ...well it flys in the face of common sence .
There is little chance that any Hammas resistance fighter has not had a family member killed
or grievously injured .
People don't use family or friends as human shields .
IDF in the future will have the same respect as the SS have now .
Concentration camp victims 1363
I took a walk yesterday ..
When I returned I calculated I could have walked through Gaza in about
5 hours .
The talk about human shields ...well it flys in the face of common sence .
There is little chance that any Hammas resistance fighter has not had a family member killed
or grievously injured .
People don't use family or friends as human shields .
IDF in the future will have the same respect as the SS have now .
Edited by kitz on Thursday 31st July 09:31
Jon Snow fails to get an answer out of Hamas spokesman about stopping rocket fire. http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-israel-started-... Presumably this bloke is one of the sharper tools in the Hamas box?
Jimbeaux said:
RedTrident said:
The tide in the UK has turned against Israel. YouGov poll has 62% believing Israel is committing war crimes. It's even beginning to turn in the US with a Pew Research Center poll showing that among 18 to 29-year old Americans, 29% blame Israel more for the current violence, while 21% blame Hamas.
Wonder how many sleeping child will be murdered whilst in their mother's arms tonight. Bizarrely, I don't think it'll be who began the conflict as the clear terrorists that will be responsible for the death of innocent women and children.
Israel are not going to beat Hamas by bombing them imo.
Again, what is Israel to do, sit there while being rocketed? And don't come with the Palestinian peace plan, Hamas cares nothing for the Palestinians, they want to eradicate Israel.Wonder how many sleeping child will be murdered whilst in their mother's arms tonight. Bizarrely, I don't think it'll be who began the conflict as the clear terrorists that will be responsible for the death of innocent women and children.
Israel are not going to beat Hamas by bombing them imo.
The Ukrainian separatists shot a plane down by mistake and within days there are sanctions against Russia. The Israelis continue to kill innocent women and children and the US restock their weapons supply. The entire world sees the double standards here.
I'd never have thought that in a war between Hamas and Israel, that it would be Hamas who are succeeding in killing soldiers and Israel succeeding in killing civilians. Hamas know its rockets are ineffective, they've successfully used this to draw out Israeli soldiers.
This war can be ended easily Jim, you keep quoting this line about Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel. This really hasn't been the case for quite some time. But then you've been caught out several times on this thread already. Israel can, and in the end will be forced to, make peace with the people of Gaza, only by doing this can it end the threat posed by Hamas as the Palestinian people themselves will defeat Hamas.
Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect? Is it because Israel hasn't finished stealing land yet? This historically blinkered support of Israel we've had here in the West, mainly as a result of WW2, is ending. It is in Israel's interests to drive forward a peace plan before our populations force our government's to end their historical positions. Israel is at risk of being left isolated and becoming, in the eyes of ordinary people across the world, a terrorist state.
It's surprising now how much more of a fuss there is over Israel defending itself than there was a few years ago. I suppose this country is becoming more liberal by the day. Israel are a plucky contender, a country not afraid to use force to defend itself, and not about to be made a fool of by a few terrorists. It makes for perfect internet argument fodder.
Baryonyx said:
It's surprising now how much more of a fuss there is over Israel defending itself than there was a few years ago. I suppose this country is becoming more liberal by the day. Israel are a plucky contender, a country not afraid to use force to defend itself, and not about to be made a fool of by a few terrorists. It makes for perfect internet argument fodder.
Yes this person did actually just type this.Baryonyx said:
It's surprising now how much more of a fuss there is over Israel defending itself than there was a few years ago. I suppose this country is becoming more liberal by the day. Israel are a plucky contender, a country not afraid to use force to defend itself, and not about to be made a fool of by a few terrorists. It makes for perfect internet argument fodder.
Absolutely. After all, all those kids might one day become Hamas terrorist, so if they are disposed off now, it'll make defence better in the future. But killing more than 1200 people in order not to be 'made a fool by a few terrorists' is price worth paying. Isn't it. Hospitals are used to tend to injured terrorists, power plants provide electricity so terrorists can plan their attacks in comfort, TV stations are used to spread hate, so all legitimate targets. If international condemnation gets too loud, we'll just trot out the good old 'Not sure that it was us', 'We don't target civilians on purpose', 'It's all someone else's fault', 'What about Holocaust', 'Don't you know that we have monopoly on suffering, you can't take that away'. If we need to sacrifice over thousand civilians to appease members of Knesset who call for wipeout of Palestinians, so be it. It's all in the name of defence. And to hell with international law. That doesn't apply to 'chosen people'.
Mermaid said:
skyrover said:
If Hamas had better weaponry, there would simply be more dead... neither side would be more "reasonable"
Not many killed by NK, India, Pakistan recently. Now if Russia/Saudi struck up a strategic alliance with Hamas...
India and Pakistan are trading blows constantly...
Hamas already has the backing of several generous donors
RedTrident said:
How about not shell a UN shelter? How about lead in the peace process? How about agree to lift the blockade in exchange for the missiles stopping? How about stop building settlements and stealing the lands and homes of others? Simple really.
The Ukrainian separatists shot a plane down by mistake and within days there are sanctions against Russia. The Israelis continue to kill innocent women and children and the US restock their weapons supply. The entire world sees the double standards here.
I'd never have thought that in a war between Hamas and Israel, that it would be Hamas who are succeeding in killing soldiers and Israel succeeding in killing civilians. Hamas know its rockets are ineffective, they've successfully used this to draw out Israeli soldiers.
This war can be ended easily Jim, you keep quoting this line about Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel. This really hasn't been the case for quite some time. But then you've been caught out several times on this thread already. Israel can, and in the end will be forced to, make peace with the people of Gaza, only by doing this can it end the threat posed by Hamas as the Palestinian people themselves will defeat Hamas.
Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect? Is it because Israel hasn't finished stealing land yet? This historically blinkered support of Israel we've had here in the West, mainly as a result of WW2, is ending. It is in Israel's interests to drive forward a peace plan before our populations force our government's to end their historical positions. Israel is at risk of being left isolated and becoming, in the eyes of ordinary people across the world, a terrorist state.
I agree with many of your points, yet somehow I feel uncomfortable in agreeing with them. I have respect and admiration for the state of Israel for the the way grown from nothing, into a viable '1st world' nation in such a short space of time. I respect the way they have defended themselves and refuse to be intimidated by hostile neighbours. Yet at the same time I have sympathy and understanding for the Palestinian people who, as the state of Israel developed, found themselves literally forced out of homes and lands that they had lived in for generations, and I understand why the neighbouring countries were , and still are, hostile to Israel. The Ukrainian separatists shot a plane down by mistake and within days there are sanctions against Russia. The Israelis continue to kill innocent women and children and the US restock their weapons supply. The entire world sees the double standards here.
I'd never have thought that in a war between Hamas and Israel, that it would be Hamas who are succeeding in killing soldiers and Israel succeeding in killing civilians. Hamas know its rockets are ineffective, they've successfully used this to draw out Israeli soldiers.
This war can be ended easily Jim, you keep quoting this line about Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel. This really hasn't been the case for quite some time. But then you've been caught out several times on this thread already. Israel can, and in the end will be forced to, make peace with the people of Gaza, only by doing this can it end the threat posed by Hamas as the Palestinian people themselves will defeat Hamas.
Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect? Is it because Israel hasn't finished stealing land yet? This historically blinkered support of Israel we've had here in the West, mainly as a result of WW2, is ending. It is in Israel's interests to drive forward a peace plan before our populations force our government's to end their historical positions. Israel is at risk of being left isolated and becoming, in the eyes of ordinary people across the world, a terrorist state.
Israel is a nasty country that seems to get away with acts that other countries would be condemned for. It bulldozes Palestinians out of their lands and homes, builds a 'Berlin wall' to keep the nasty Arabs out, allows the nasty Arabs to work in Israel because their economy requires cheap labour, but these workers have no real rights, they have to queue every morning to pass through military checkpoints and are treated as second class citizens.
Hammas is a nasty organisation that has an avowed intent to destroy Israel, they'll succeed, but they keep trying, and I can understand why they keep attacking the Israelis. I'm pretty certain that not all of Hammas are zealot Islamic fundamentalists.
If I was a young moderate Palestinian, with no interest in politics or religion, and had no time for the extreme Islamic views of Hammas, I just wanted to have a job and build a life, but was denied this opportunity because Israel - the only place I could get a job - had closed the border to me, and then one day my whole family were killed by an Israeli tank shell, then I would hate the Israelis with a passion, and I would join Hammas and try to avenge my families death.
If I was a moderate Israeli who felt sympathy for the Palestinians, but one day my home was mortared by Hammas, then I would hate the Palestinians and actively support the shelling of Gazza.
The solution is in the hands of moderates from both sides, people who simply want to live normal lives and enjoy life. The longer this 'war' continues, the number of moderates on whom a solution depends diminish, as they all turn into extremists intent on destroying each other.
It's called a vicious cirlcle, both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. But as long as the U.S supports Israel, and refuses to condemn them, the dispute will continue.
Mr allnighter :
I was following your equivocation of the current IDF operations with those of the SS in the Warsaw Ghetto with great interest.
I must have missed the news reports that IDF soldiers were rounding up thousands of unarmed Palestinian men, women, and children and carting them off to concentration camps for medical experiments, industrialised slaughter and the processing of their bodies into soap and lampshades.
Do you have any links on this?
I was following your equivocation of the current IDF operations with those of the SS in the Warsaw Ghetto with great interest.
I must have missed the news reports that IDF soldiers were rounding up thousands of unarmed Palestinian men, women, and children and carting them off to concentration camps for medical experiments, industrialised slaughter and the processing of their bodies into soap and lampshades.
Do you have any links on this?
audidoody said:
Mr allnighter :
I was following your equivocation of the current IDF operations with those of the SS in the Warsaw Ghetto with great interest.
I must have missed the news reports that IDF soldiers were rounding up thousands of unarmed Palestinian men, women, and children and carting them off to concentration camps for medical experiments, industrialised slaughter and the processing of their bodies into soap and lampshades.
Do you have any links on this?
Together with links showing the Jews attacking the Germans ,being offered their own land and repeatedly turning it down with the aim of destroying all the Germans.I was following your equivocation of the current IDF operations with those of the SS in the Warsaw Ghetto with great interest.
I must have missed the news reports that IDF soldiers were rounding up thousands of unarmed Palestinian men, women, and children and carting them off to concentration camps for medical experiments, industrialised slaughter and the processing of their bodies into soap and lampshades.
Do you have any links on this?
RedTrident said:
How about not shell a UN shelter? How about lead in the peace process? How about agree to lift the blockade in exchange for the missiles stopping? How about stop building settlements and stealing the lands and homes of others? Simple really.
OK, in the interests of balance, I will play the advocate. How about Hamas not use UN shelters to hide weapons? How about Hamas not launching attacks from right next to UN shelters? How about Hamas stops sending missiles AND recognises the right of Israel to exist AND stops using humanitarian (or indeed any) resources to build terror tunnels in exchange for Israel and Egypt lifting the blockade?
RedTrident said:
The Ukrainian separatists shot a plane down by mistake and within days there are sanctions against Russia. The Israelis continue to kill innocent women and children and the US restock their weapons supply. The entire world sees the double standards here.
I see exactly the point you are making here and on one level I agree 100%. It goes back to the point I made some pages back about ALL the interested parties (not just Hamas and Israel) taking a lead in stopping the violence and building the peace. RedTrident said:
I'd never have thought that in a war between Hamas and Israel, that it would be Hamas who are succeeding in killing soldiers and Israel succeeding in killing civilians. Hamas know its rockets are ineffective, they've successfully used this to draw out Israeli soldiers.
Well actually you contradict yourself there. Hamas strategy has always been to use its own people as cannon fodder in pursuit of Hamas wider aims, so it has made it very hard for Israel to fight it without Israel ending up killing civilians. Likewise Israel puts its soldiers and its technological resources (iron dome for example) in the front line to protect its civilians so few civilians are killed, (in fact comparatively few IDF soldiers are killed too) RedTrident said:
This war can be ended easily Jim, you keep quoting this line about Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel. This really hasn't been the case for quite some time.
Thats an awfully big claim to be making there. Please can you substantiate it? As far as I am aware Hamas is still 100% committed to the eradication of Israel. That credo sits at the heart of this conflict! RedTrident said:
Israel can, and in the end will be forced to, make peace with the people of Gaza, only by doing this can it end the threat posed by Hamas as the Palestinian people themselves will defeat Hamas.
Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect? Is it because Israel hasn't finished stealing land yet?
You make this sound like there is only one agenda at play here. In fact, there are several, by multiple parties. The situation is far more complex than you describe. BUT I do agree that in the end the only way peace can come for all is for all to engage positively with each other. I honestly think that Israel has tried this, but then perhaps I am naive Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect? Is it because Israel hasn't finished stealing land yet?
RedTrident said:
The historically blinkered support of Israel we've had here in the West, mainly as a result of WW2, is ending. It is in Israel's interests to drive forward a peace plan before our populations force our government's to end their historical positions. Israel is at risk of being left isolated and becoming, in the eyes of ordinary people across the world, a terrorist state.
I don't think Israel cares two hoots about being isolated. As I have said before, the Israeli psyche is one that is founded on the absolute belief that the only people who can be relied upon 100% to ultimately defend Israel and its people are Israelis themselves. All we can hope for is that enough voices of discontent in the west will force Israel and Hamas to pause and reflect long enough for peace to break out
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