Israeli

[franki68]

SR7492 said:

If I took over your house and kicked the living daylights out you; put a fence around so you can't move and invited others to live in the garden - how would you feel? How would you you bring your kids up in this situation?

And I'm describing it in best terms, the actual situation is a lot worse.

So why don't you educate yourself before making idiotic statements like that.

or alternatively one gets kicked out of the said house,someone else moves in ,you come back and say well ok lets share ,they say no we want it all,so we will attack you .You beat them off ,but they keep attacking you time and time again,so you make a proposal to share again ,again they say no we want it all ,and attack again,now your getting pissed off so you say look we can live together ,but they say oh no we want it all,and attack you again.
so on and so on ,then one day you have forced them into a small area in the garden which you control and some of your mad cousins want to take control of that ,but you say no,let them have it and show they can live in peace ,so you leave that section of garden alone,pull out your mad cousins and say ,right this is yours do what you want with it,at which point they say ok we chose to keep attacking you.

then the world goes oh look how nasty you are,not letting them attack you ,

[franki68]

s1962a said:

Are we allowed to post links of random websites that may or may not be true? Thought that was a no-no.

I dont know you make the rules.

[jonby]

franki68 said:

supersingle said:

@league67, I'm really not interested in talking to you if you can't refrain from the personal insults. It does your argument no good BTW.

The 30 'traitors' killed (and dragged through the streets if the photos are genuine) by Hamas story is from the Times of Israel, quoted from Palestinian news agencies. Sadly I don't speak Arabic so haven't quoted the original stories. Are they false?

yes the rules of of these debates,is anything which proves/supports israel is either a lie or in the case of videos /photos,faked.

thats the first rule ,suprised you didnt know it.

meanwhile the media ,dont show any hamas fighters/rockets etc,although the french reporter who did dare take a photo of a launcher being fired outsdie a school was kicked out by hamas.They utilise hamas figures ,and where there is conflicting versions use the following language..'the palestinians/hamas state ' i.e is fact,whilst israel 'alleges' .

We have the majority of jews & pro-Israel groups (2 different groups with plenty of overlap) in this country thinking most of the 'mainstream' media is anti-Israel & anti-Semitic and the same articles read/watched by the muslim/pro-Palestinian groups (again 2 different groups with plenty of overlap) who think the same media is pro-Israel

We have very little in the way of news sources that can actually be relied upon as neutral or at the very least, which all sides agree is 'reliable'

It's a major part of the problem as it leads to incredible polarisation with relatively few people who both try to see both sides of the argument AND (this is the important bit) present their views that way. What I mean by that is if someone by & large supports one side of the argument but sees some merit to the other side, the way discussions tend to go (including this thread) is such that those people often take a much firmer, more partisan stance in the discussions than they feel on the inside

It's a bit like siblings who fight like cat & dog but defend each other to the hilt when an outsider attacks. Until we can have more balanced discussions trying to avoid inflammatory, often deliberately provocative language, with genuine attempts to see all sides of the argument, just an attempt at some level of empathy, no solution will ever be found

Yes there are some extremists in Israel or on the Israeli side. They don't IMO form anything like the majority. Equally there is a huge distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. Does that mean all Hamas are bad ? I'm honestly not sure. I level lots of accusation at 'Hamas' but does that mean everyone within Hamas feels exactly the same way - I challenge anyone on here to suggest they know sufficiently to actually be able to make an informed comment. We sometimes see phrases saying the Palestinians elected Hamas so they get what they voted for. But I read an interesting article recently written from a supposedly neutral stance (I interpreted it as being more pro-Israel though it certainly attempted to offer balance) which suggested if one looks at how long ago the election was and the current demographics, only a tiny minority of Palestinians in Gaza today would have been eligible to vote for the current regime. Add to that the fact that the average age in Gaza is so young, many of them will have only grown up knowing one thing and it's hardly surprising they have the attitudes that they do

I say all of that as someone who would not be upset to be classed as 'pro-Israel'. Which of course doesn't mean I agree with everything that Israel do. Looking at it from the other perspective, many Israelis and many jews (the whole when we should separate the two groups and when they can be referred to in the same breath gets very complicated and I say that as a jew) genuinely feel that there is a huge rise in anti-Semitism that makes them feel more strongly about Israel and it's role as the only safe haven for jews. I appreciate not all rallies go like this and there are extremists at any demonstration, but I was walking through Malmo in Sweden in 2009 when I saw a small peaceful officially sanctioned pro-Israel rally (which in my personal experience have always had strictly monitored comparatively neutral 'pro-peace' banners) attacked by an unlawful, unsanctioned pro-Palestinian group throwing rocks, fireworks, eggs, etc at the Israeli group, with incredibly antagonistic banners, with the police dispersing the Israeli group because they were the only ones who would cooperate with the police. Even as a passing observer, I was literally petrified for my own safety

My point is there are extremists on both sides and there are moderates on both sides. Ignorance is the cause of so many of the world's ills and education combined with communication is the best solution. Name calling, provocative language, comparisons to the SS and concentration camps, suggestions that all the Palestinians want to die, suggestions that Israel couldn't give a monkeys how many people die, suggestions that all the people dying in Gaza are innocent civilians, suggestions that all those in gaza are terrorists, suggestions that the disgusting tiny minority of Israelis who sit rejoicing in Palestinian deaths are representative - this sort of language is completely counter productive. And yes, I'm sure I've probably been guilty of doing some of that myself, but at least try to do something about it

Edited by jonby on Thursday 31st July 13:46

[Mrr T]

s1962a said:

franki68 said:

gabriele barbati @ gabriele barbati,

italian journalist tells it as it is .

'Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris'

2 other french journalists who dared to photograph a rocket launcher outside a school have been kicked out as well.


and here's a tweet of a palestinian mental patient chained to a fence by hamas at a targetted sight


http://punditfromanotherplanet.com/2014/07/30/a-so...

Are we allowed to post links of random websites that may or may not be true? Thought that was a no-no.

You where happy to quote the David Byrne link which is just as random and just as likely to be true or untrue.

[Jimbeaux]

Silent1 said:

Jimbeaux said:

They cannot be a part of the solution if their stated goal is Israel's eradication. If it were to just gain peace for the Palestinians, maybe so, but that is not the case. I lean toward the other poster's idea of working with Fatah and marginalizing Hamas. That, however, will likely be difficult if Hamas maintains its weaponry.

If Hamas cannot be part of the solution then by the same token the members of the Knesset who are for the extermination of all Palestinians also cannot be involved in the peace plan. In fact if one was to apply Israelis requirements on themselves then any of the Knesset members who are for the extermination of anyone shouldn't be involved.

On another note the two things I find incredibly repulsive are the groups of people who gather on the hills overlooking gaza whooping and hollering as the bombs hit gaza and the other is civilians writing messages on the materiel being fired into gaza, neither of these should be accepted in a first world democratic country.
The constant shouting of anti-semitism to anyone who supports gaza is pretty pathetic too, Fox News are particularly egregious in this regard, it strikes me that Zionism and the Jewish religion are viewed as one and the same by a lot of Israeli supporters.

I'm also just making it clear I'm on no side in particular but am by virtue of an unlikely set of coincidences involved with one side in a relevant capacity.

I agree; however, are those certain members of the Israeli Legislature calling the shots or speaking for the majority? I think not or such an extermination would have already occurred. Hamas, on the other hand, would likely execute one of their members calling for peace with israel. I understand your comparison, but IMO it is off to the point of being apples and oranges.

[Jimbeaux]

kitz said:

Terrorist apartheid IDF dead 56
Concentration camp victims 1363

I took a walk yesterday ..
When I returned I calculated I could have walked through Gaza in about
5 hours .
The talk about human shields ...well it flys in the face of common sence .
There is little chance that any Hammas resistance fighter has not had a family member killed
or grievously injured .
People don't use family or friends as human shields .

IDF in the future will have the same respect as the SS have now .

Edited by kitz on Thursday 31st July 09:31

Wow; let me say it again, just wow.

[Jimbeaux]

Rocksteadyeddie said:

Jon Snow fails to get an answer out of Hamas spokesman about stopping rocket fire. http://www.channel4.com/news/hamas-israel-started-... Presumably this bloke is one of the sharper tools in the Hamas box?

That says all we need to know right there. For Hamas, it is about Israel not Palestine.

[Mrr T]

SR7492 said:

If I took over your house and kicked the living daylights out you; put a fence around so you can't move and invited others to live in the garden - how would you feel? How would you you bring your kids up in this situation?

And I'm describing it in best terms, the actual situation is a lot worse.

So why don't you educate yourself before making idiotic statements like that.

You forgot to mention he is lobbing missiles from the garden into your house.

Further if we are talking about Gaza all the settlements where demolished when Israel left.

[s1962a]

Mrr T said:

s1962a said:

franki68 said:

gabriele barbati @ gabriele barbati,

italian journalist tells it as it is .

'Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris'

2 other french journalists who dared to photograph a rocket launcher outside a school have been kicked out as well.


and here's a tweet of a palestinian mental patient chained to a fence by hamas at a targetted sight


http://punditfromanotherplanet.com/2014/07/30/a-so...

Are we allowed to post links of random websites that may or may not be true? Thought that was a no-no.

You where happy to quote the David Byrne link which is just as random and just as likely to be true or untrue.

Good point. Lets keep em in then.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Mrr T said:

SR7492 said:

If I took over your house and kicked the living daylights out you; put a fence around so you can't move and invited others to live in the garden - how would you feel? How would you you bring your kids up in this situation?

And I'm describing it in best terms, the actual situation is a lot worse.

So why don't you educate yourself before making idiotic statements like that.

You forgot to mention he is lobbing missiles from the garden into your house.

Get it right. Lobbing missiles from the children's play area of the garden into the house. So when the guy in the house throws bigger ones back from whence they came and hits the children, the bloke in the garden can cry "the swine, he's targeting my children now!"

[jonby]

Mrr T said:

s1962a said:

franki68 said:

gabriele barbati @ gabriele barbati,

italian journalist tells it as it is .

'Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris'

2 other french journalists who dared to photograph a rocket launcher outside a school have been kicked out as well.


and here's a tweet of a palestinian mental patient chained to a fence by hamas at a targetted sight


http://punditfromanotherplanet.com/2014/07/30/a-so...

Are we allowed to post links of random websites that may or may not be true? Thought that was a no-no.

You where happy to quote the David Byrne link which is just as random and just as likely to be true or untrue.

John Ging, head of UNRWA in Gaza for 5 years between 2006 & 2011, was interviewed last night - you can youtube it and hear him speak. I assume he's regarded as reliable ? Q: Is Hamas or Islamic Jihad launching rockets nearby the UN schools using them essentially as shelter ? A: Yes, the armed groups are firing their rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas. Absolutely.

Seriously, I have to question anyone who still doubts Hamas' methods and intentions. To suggest they don't use human shields and deliberately provoke attacks on their own citizens which suits their agenda is something I struggle to get my head around

Having said that, I also understand why they feel compelled to act that way and I believe Israel should respond differently to the way that it does. Which in turn doesn't necessarily mean Israel are committing war crimes. I also don't think all Palestinians = Hamas. But to deny it's not a commonplace Hamas strategy I simply find odd

[Jimbeaux]

RedTrident said:

Jimbeaux said:

RedTrident said:

The tide in the UK has turned against Israel. YouGov poll has 62% believing Israel is committing war crimes. It's even beginning to turn in the US with a Pew Research Center poll showing that among 18 to 29-year old Americans, 29% blame Israel more for the current violence, while 21% blame Hamas.

Wonder how many sleeping child will be murdered whilst in their mother's arms tonight. Bizarrely, I don't think it'll be who began the conflict as the clear terrorists that will be responsible for the death of innocent women and children.

Israel are not going to beat Hamas by bombing them imo.

Again, what is Israel to do, sit there while being rocketed? And don't come with the Palestinian peace plan, Hamas cares nothing for the Palestinians, they want to eradicate Israel.

RedTrident said:

How about agree to lift the blockade in exchange for the missiles stopping? How about stop building settlements and stealing the lands and homes of others? Simple really.

Jimbeaux said:

This will not stop Hamas, their goal is not to help the Palestinians but to get rid of Israel; how many times do you have to be told that?

RedTrident said:

I'd never have thought that in a war between Hamas and Israel, that it would be Hamas who are succeeding in killing soldiers and Israel succeeding in killing civilians.

Jimbeaux said:

Hamas are killing soldiers because the Israeli army does not hide behind their civilians, not so of the cowards of Hamas. As you say, simple really.

RedTrident said:

you keep quoting this line about Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel. This really hasn't been the case for quite some time. But then you've been caught out several times on this thread already.

Jimbeaux said:

Really? Show me where Hamas wanting to eradicate Israel has not been the case "for some time". As for me being "caught out"; that is a matter of how much of the type things being said by yourself and others is accurate and/or true.

RedTrident said:

Why won't Israel help build a viable Palestinian state where it's people can live with dignity and respect?

Jimbeaux said:

There have been a number of times that this was on the verge of happening, the latest under the Clinton administration IIRC, yet it was stopped not by the PA but Hamas rockets. I believe you could be sold the London Bridge.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Thursday 31st July 14:07

[s1962a]

Losing the PR war?

I have been noticing a hardening of attitudes in the past few days. I wonder what the Luntz report says to do in this situation?

[andymadmak]

If this conflict is about Hamas wanting an end to the blockade, can I ask whether Hamas also fires rockets into Egypt? Genuine question.

[Jimbeaux]

FredClogs said:

Israel will always receive the support and huge financial backing of the USA, this is abundantly clear.

As is the case with Hamas and a number of Arab/Persian states. Those 1,000s of rockets don't grow on trees, or in tunnels in this case.

[jonby]

andymadmak said:

If this conflict is about Hamas wanting an end to the blockade, can I ask whether Hamas also fires rockets into Egypt? Genuine question.

IIRC, I think I read that the issue is the range of the Hamas rockets, which is insufficient to get past relatively empty desert in Egypt that is adjacent to the Gaza border. I'd stress I may be mis-remembering but that's what's at the back of my mind from somewhere. Of course there may be other reasons too - I'm not well versed in this particular issue

[s1962a]

Jimbeaux said:

FredClogs said:

Israel will always receive the support and huge financial backing of the USA, this is abundantly clear.

As is the case with Hamas and a number of Arab/Persian states. Those 1,000s of rockets don't grow on trees, or in tunnels in this case.

This is true. However, none of those arab countries seem to be held to account for their support of hamas.

US just sold a shipment of arms recently to the IDF as well. Bit rich selling weapons that kill people, and then complaining their weapons are being used to kill children.

[Rick_1138]

s1962a said:

Rick_1138 said:

JuniorD said:

http://davidbyrne.com/gaza-and-the-loss-of-civiliz...

Top read that, very informed.

article said:

I was in Israel last year with Mary. Her sister works for UNWRA in Jerusalem. Showing us round were a Palestinian - Shadi, who is her sister's husband and a professional guide - and Oren Jacobovitch, an Israeli Jew, an ex-major from the IDF who left the service under a cloud for refusing to beat up Palestinians. Between the two of them we got to see some harrowing things - Palestinian houses hemmed in by wire mesh and boards to prevent settlers throwing st and piss and used sanitary towels at the inhabitants; Palestinian kids on their way to school being beaten by Israeli kids with baseball bats to parental applause and laughter; a whole village evicted and living in caves while three settler families moved onto their land; an Israeli settlement on top of a hill diverting its sewage directly down onto Palestinian farmland below; The Wall; the checkpoints… and all the endless daily humiliations. I kept thinking, "Do Americans really condone this? Do they really think this is OK? Or do they just not know about it?".

Is this really true about how the palestinians are treated?

We cant be sure obviously, I just thought the piece was well written and articulate and seemingly balanced.

However I am neither pro Palestine or anti Israel, I do realise Israel's position in the region and cannot be seen to just ignore the rockets, however they are going full tilt in this time. Obviously using F-15's and Meerkava 4's against what is seen to be civilians willy nilly, cannot be good for public feelings. However the media is missing the fact hamas are being very clever in using the civilians of Palestine as bad PR bombs by ensuring the IDF is hitting them when retaliating from Hamas attacks.

[Jimbeaux]

jonby said:

supersingle said:

kitz said:

Terrorist apartheid IDF dead 56
Concentration camp victims 1363

I took a walk yesterday ..
When I returned I calculated I could have walked through Gaza in about
5 hours .
The talk about human shields ...well it flys in the face of common sence .
There is little chance that any Hammas resistance fighter has not had a family member killed
or grievously injured .
People don't use family or friends as human shields .

IDF in the future will have the same respect as the SS have now .

Edited by kitz on Thursday 31st July 09:31

My bold. Evidence would suggest otherwise. The Palestinians love death more than the Jews love life. Having a family member 'Martyred' for the cause confers great honour on the family. It's the reason Palestinian mothers would celebrate their sons' deaths when they blew themselves up as suicide bombers.

Israel put a stop to that with the wall and the embargo. For which they've received nothing but criticism from the so called humanitarians.

When I see phrases like;

Terrorist apartheid IDF dead 56
Concentration camp victims 1363

It makes me wonder whether the poster actually wants peace. Can language like that ever be anything other than counter productive ?

You give credit of thought were "simply stupid" would do nicely.

[audidoody]

SR7492 said:

If I took over your house and kicked the living daylights out you; put a fence around so you can't move and invited others to live in the garden - how would you feel? How would you you bring your kids up in this situation?

And I'm describing it in best terms, the actual situation is a lot worse.

So why don't you educate yourself before making idiotic statements like that.

Three weeks ago there were no Jews or soldiers in Gaza. Israelis left Gaza completely in 2005. That's spelled "C-O-M-P-L-E-T-E-L-Y". No Jews left. None. Nada.

For your house analogy to work you would have to have had your family living and owning half of my house for 3,000 years and when I tried to kick you out of your half you then decided to kick the living daylights out of me.

As for your third remark - you should do try some self-education yourself. There is a lot more to the Israeli/Arab conflict situation than the head of Hamas, the BBC, and Al-Jazeera would have you believe.