Discussion
Octoposse said:
Scuffers said:
Octoposse said:
Scuffers said:
Octoposse said:
Scuffers said:
Anybody that thinks Hamas care two hoots about the civilian population is seriously deluded, they just use them as pawns and cannon fodder to garner more support from the gullible.
Hamas' goal is a viable Palestinian state, in which the civilian population have a dignified and independent future.Hamas prime directive is the destruction of Israel...
Its not a negotiation position, its their reason for existing.
“Land for peace”, and two states;
1) A viable Palestinian state based on Gaza and the West Bank;
2) The permanent border between the two states freely negotiated between them – undoubtedly ending up as some close +/- to the 1967 border;
3) Palestinian (and other relevant Arab state) recognition of Israel;
4) Security guarantees for all states in the region;
5) Surrender by the Palestinians of the Right of Return to lands falling within the agreed Israeli borders (which is by inference the same as point (3) AND the two state solution;
6) Partition and/or some form of international status for Jerusalem.
. . . . and a shed load of money from the international community.
You really think Hamas wouldn't sign up to that? And they could deliver - they have the credentials to compromise, whilst others (like the 'leaders' of the Palestinian people that Israel and the US appoint/annoint) would merely look like sell-outs, and they have discipline.
But right now an Israeli government couldn't and wouldn't agree - the internal political price of giving up most of the settlements is colossal. Instead Israel’s strategy is to create conditions in which a cowed Palestinian side (and 'bought' leaders) sign up to am agreement very much in Israel’s favour - essentially a scattering of bantustans, tribal reservations in effect - and the rest of the World guarantees it.
The obstacle to peace is not Hamas but the Israeli settlements. Settlements that have come about for strategic reasons, for romantic historical reasons, religion, opportunism, random chance but mainly, in retrospect, folly. Now they are the tail wagging the Israeli dog – Israeli governments cannot conceive of paying the internal political price of giving up sufficient of the occupied territories that will give the Palestinians the land, water and resources they need to establish a viable state. So – with total US support – they play wack-a-mole and wait for circumstances in which some Palestinian leader will sign off the Israeli wish list.
Israel wants its people to live in peace but is not prepared to pay the political cost of peace - by and large it's something they achieve for year after year - physical barriers, overwhelming military power and the backing of the US ensure that. However, picking this fight with Hamas is beginning to look like a strategic error - what's the exit strategy? What does 'victory' look like in the absence of a Hamas surrender (which is effectively what an unconditional ceasefire is).
Funkycoldribena said:
Octoposse said:
'd estimate that the IDF are killing less than one armed fighter for every eight or ten civilian 'unfortunate accidents'.
How long have you been on the front line?Based on war against Hezbollah in 2006 - Gaza's more densely populated, but on the other hand some of the failed infiltrations will have resulted in clusters of armed fighter deaths.
0a said:
Israel now looks like the terrorist state - that's quite some doing in a fairly limited amount of time.
This is due to you and others being easily fooled,Hamas and the palestinians are masters of this.People like you,media stations etc have been fooled before but you just cant see it.http://mediamythbusters.com/index.php?title=Jenin_...
But it really is pointless because when the truth comes out everything has blown over and gets forgotten.
Funkycoldribena said:
0a said:
Israel now looks like the terrorist state - that's quite some doing in a fairly limited amount of time.
This is due to you and others being easily fooled,Hamas and the palestinians are masters of this.People like you,media stations etc have been fooled before but you just cant see it.http://mediamythbusters.com/index.php?title=Jenin_...
But it really is pointless because when the truth comes out everything has blown over and gets forgotten.
JensenA said:
I take it you don't watch the news on TV then? You haven't seen the footage of fathers rushing into the hospitals carrying their wounded children in thir arms?
See you're not getting it,your gullibility doesnt let you see clearly.10% of rockets fired by hamas are landing in Gaza,do you think Hamas would admit to killing their own? Im not saying there arent civilians being killed but I guarantee you're not getting a true breakdown of figures because hamas control what is released.What percentage are hamas fighters? What percentage are killed by hamas' own rockets? What percentage are sacrificed by hamas like the guy in the earlier link who was chained to a fence?Theres been numerous instances over the years of outrage like yours at certain "atrocities" which have turned out to be absolute fabrications.I probably shouldnt post it again but open your eyes...
http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-10-most-disturbing-pal...
s1962a said:
Thats why I said "if true". any rebuttals against it, other than people saying it's fake?
get real, nobody would post that even if it were true, might as well just paint a massive global target on your back.a quick google brings up this:
https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/49483641645...
Funkycoldribena said:
0a said:
Israel now looks like the terrorist state - that's quite some doing in a fairly limited amount of time.
This is due to you and others being easily fooled,Hamas and the palestinians are masters of this.People like you,media stations etc have been fooled before but you just cant see it.http://mediamythbusters.com/index.php?title=Jenin_...
But it really is pointless because when the truth comes out everything has blown over and gets forgotten.
When I was visiting Sajmiste camp, as we were given the tour, there was someone who was constantly questioning number of executed people there, both Jews and Serbs, constantly talking about how he only found the real evidence for about 1/8th of the figure. Everyone found him idiotic and repulsive. You are not better.
But, between cretinous statements that Palestinians love death, that civilians are actually valid target because they fit 'the profile', that it was actually Hamas rocket that hit the school, that some names are 'counted twice' (for the record, if you visit Jasenovac, you'll see, in different registers, some names with date of birth and date of death displayed 4 times, explanation was very simple, that with such huge numbers mistakes and confusion were expected and common) there is recuring theme how things are 'not that bad'. Some imbecile even posted pictures from Gaza to show how life is quite peachy.
But I understand why you 'think' what you do. For simpletons, it's necessary to make world simple to be able to understand it. Israel good, Palestine bad. With the inevitable, 'ah I can see through the bs that everyone else falls for'.
Jimbeaux said:
Although we will continue to disagree, I appreciate that you remain cordial in your debate; thanks for that. Unsure at the moment but I may have to be in London in October. If so, are you in that vicinity? I could buy us a pint and argue in person; or if you prefer, compare the E90 to the F30. 
This also applies to anyone else on PH who may be around and likes to:
1)Drink 2)Argue 3)Drink 4)Discuss cars 5)Drink.
If you ever make it to the island of Ireland, I'll take you up on that. This also applies to anyone else on PH who may be around and likes to:
1)Drink 2)Argue 3)Drink 4)Discuss cars 5)Drink.
You can tell me all about how your great uncle's sister was Irish
Unless the blockade is lifted and the concentration camp ends there will be no peace here. Israel must be forced by the US to genuinely build a 2 state solution. Left to its own devices it would want to avoid this and distract the negotiations with a dozen other issues instead of dealing with the root cause.
Changing tact now will help re establish Israel's reputation, try to carry on as is will ultimately one day lead to their leaders standing trial in the Hague.
Changing tact now will help re establish Israel's reputation, try to carry on as is will ultimately one day lead to their leaders standing trial in the Hague.
Scuffers said:
s1962a said:
Thats why I said "if true". any rebuttals against it, other than people saying it's fake?
get real, nobody would post that even if it were true, might as well just paint a massive global target on your back.a quick google brings up this:
https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/49483641645...
league67 said:
Well, if that is not the proof that he didn't say things like that I don't know what is.
in this modern digital world, define proof?how many FB accounts are hacked every day by kids just messing about?
you would have to be totally suicidal to post this up, this is a guy who lies in a war zone, supposedly putting up pictures of himself with that against them when he is surrounded by people would would not think twice about wiping him out?
come on, if you believe this is genuine, then you really are having problems.
I guess you also believe the video's from Syrian conflict that have been re-labeled as Gaza? (not sure I understand why anyone would do this as there must be enough genuine ones by now?)
I doubt we'll ever see the reality of what has been going on, the propaganda (on all sides) is so vast, and there just aren't the real journo's on the ground to cover this (I assume they just can't operate in Gaza?)
Jimbeaux said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Zeeky said:
It should be unlawful for any British citizen to fight with any armed forces other than our own.
Back in the 70s, some of our most senior politicians had fought in the Spanish civil war. And are you aware of the many foreign servicemen who joined the British army and air force in the 2nd world war. 1)A nation's official military / 2)Not one that the joiner's nation is at war with.
league67 said:
Scuffers said:
s1962a said:
Thats why I said "if true". any rebuttals against it, other than people saying it's fake?
get real, nobody would post that even if it were true, might as well just paint a massive global target on your back.a quick google brings up this:
https://twitter.com/LahavHarkov/status/49483641645...
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