Discussion
So after 159 pages of discussion what may we conclude....
1. Israel has used disproportionate force..........Yes/ No
2. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that must be defeated at any cost.......Yes/No
As I see it ,depending on how entrenched/biased,a view you take that's it.
Can you not see how hard it must be for both Israelis and Palestinians to find a peaceful solution if you lads,have spent the past 159 pages arguing and insulting each other, keep going round in circles.
Like many conflicts both Israelis and Palestinians have made serious mistakes.
Let us all hope that a Just Peace will come soon.
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
1. Israel has used disproportionate force..........Yes/ No
2. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that must be defeated at any cost.......Yes/No
As I see it ,depending on how entrenched/biased,a view you take that's it.
Can you not see how hard it must be for both Israelis and Palestinians to find a peaceful solution if you lads,have spent the past 159 pages arguing and insulting each other, keep going round in circles.
Like many conflicts both Israelis and Palestinians have made serious mistakes.
Let us all hope that a Just Peace will come soon.
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
avinalarf said:
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
That's absolutely right.The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
I think the crux of the problem is Israel a scared to let the Palestinians have a viable homeland so are determined to stop them having one because the Palestinian leadership does not accept that Israel should have a viable homeland and would use any Palestinian homeland as a base from which to try and destroy any Israeli homeland.
And Israel's fears on that front are fully justified.
Funkycoldribena said:
jonby said:
it's an old one but it's as compelling today as it was then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo
Go and find a wall and bash your head against it,you might as well for all the good that video will do.I've posted videos but they don't want to see it.Sad really but you will never get through to those on here who are entrenched in their view and have been tricked by the Hamas pr machine,they've done it many times and and are so good at it that they've fooled TV companies and the UN before so its not surprising people on here can't see it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xuYcjubV7I
This is a Palestinian talking about Hamas' tactics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzS27ylCZ8
This is how the Palestinian kids are being educated (truly heartbreaking)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM
But to so many in Europe, Israel are the bad guys and Hamas aren't the problem..............you couldn't make it up when the Arab states are better advocates of Israel's policy towards Hamas than Europe's left wing so called supporters of human rights
Zeeky said:
I think you are asking the wrong question. It should be, why do we think we can 'give' anyone any land that doesn't belong to us in the first place?
Israel was created through European settlers and the violence of those settlers. It was given legitimacy by other European States and States created from settlement(often violent) by European States.
61% of Jews in Israel (as of 2005) are descended in full or in part from those already present in the province before Zionism (a small number), or those driven out of Arab lands after 1945, they are termed Mizrahi Jews.Israel was created through European settlers and the violence of those settlers. It was given legitimacy by other European States and States created from settlement(often violent) by European States.
Terming these "European" settlers is a left wing fantasy to present Israel as one of the last European colonies.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
avinalarf said:
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
That's absolutely right.The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
I think the crux of the problem is Israel a scared to let the Palestinians have a viable homeland so are determined to stop them having one because the Palestinian leadership does not accept that Israel should have a viable homeland and would use any Palestinian homeland as a base from which to try and destroy any Israeli homeland.
And Israel's fears on that front are fully justified.
The speed with which they went to war after 3 lads were kidnapped and killed. They used this as an excuse. Its clear to see for anyone that is prepared to see the situation for what it is. The Palestinians, including Hamas through the unity government, are prepared to negotiate for a 2 state solution. Israel is not because it is Israel that will have to give up the settlements and lose total control of Jerusalem.
Instead we see the same old story repeated time after time of one where Israel needs to defend itself. Sorry mate, this is not the case any longer. Israel is empire building and doesn't want to stop it's settlement building (yes that means stealing land that does not belong to it) nor does it want to see a viable Palestinian state emerge.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
avinalarf said:
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
That's absolutely right.The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
I think the crux of the problem is Israel a scared to let the Palestinians have a viable homeland so are determined to stop them having one because the Palestinian leadership does not accept that Israel should have a viable homeland and would use any Palestinian homeland as a base from which to try and destroy any Israeli homeland.
And Israel's fears on that front are fully justified.
Like many others I supported the Israeli decision to evacuate the territory in full. But all that has happened as a consequence is the taking over of Gaza by extremists who launch rockets into Israel which then creates periodic wars. If all that will happen in the West bank if Israel pulls out is more of the same then you have a recipe for unending conflict. Bearing in mind as well it will be far easier to move weapons into the west bank than the Gaza strip if Israel is no longer controlling the borders.
Funkycoldribena said:
It was obviously too hard a question for you and red tribant.
It really is easy, one begins with Y,the other N.
Have another go,I know its tricky for you.
You really do sound like Hannity!It really is easy, one begins with Y,the other N.
Have another go,I know its tricky for you.
Only thickos think in such black and white terms, don't expect us to lower our thinking to your level.
avinalarf said:
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The current crisis is caused not by an imbalance of "issues" or of "armaments" but by Israel's apparent willingness to shell civilians and engage in reprisal attacks.The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
When the IRA set off their bombs, did UK shell the Falls Road and catholic estates in Belfast?
Avinalarf , I quite agree that both groups should have their own homeland.
The question that must be asked first is are those in charge on both sides going to allow that?
Only then can a strategy of making it work be chosen, whether change will ever happen from within or whether the world has to step in again.
The question that must be asked first is are those in charge on both sides going to allow that?
Only then can a strategy of making it work be chosen, whether change will ever happen from within or whether the world has to step in again.
RedTrident said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
avinalarf said:
The Palestinians should have a recognised viable Homeland.
The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
That's absolutely right.The Israelis should have a recognised viable Homeland.
I think the crux of the problem is Israel a scared to let the Palestinians have a viable homeland so are determined to stop them having one because the Palestinian leadership does not accept that Israel should have a viable homeland and would use any Palestinian homeland as a base from which to try and destroy any Israeli homeland.
And Israel's fears on that front are fully justified.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM
Anyone who speaks the lingo care to say that the English subtitles aren't accurate?
deadslow said:
I should say that, by their actions, the Israelis are condemning themselves to be bombed and hated for a generation.
Given that the "peace process" started an intensive suicide bombing campaign I think the Israelis might be forgiven to conclude that security comes from walls, and securing the international borders of Gaza and the West bank, rather than Palestinian goodwill. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Because Israel doesn't trust them as far as they can throw them. And looking at Jonby's video links above, who can blame them.
The Palestinians can blame them.Trust should be a two way street. Israel have and continue to take what is not theirs. Israel wont accept a two state agreement as they can no longer then expand their own territory and form new settlements. As soon as Palestine has an internationally recognised border as a sovereign state Israel could no longer continue to encroach on that land.
Have a look how many time Israel has Violated international law yet is still allowed to sit at the table where those laws are created.
http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolu...
Trust you say.
I wouldn't trust an Israeli as far as I could throw one.
George Galloway summed it up brilliantly, The fact he entered big brother and wore a cat suit does not alter or change any of the facts he discusses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0gEzPG82pc
Trust is not a word that Israeli's understand
Edited by NoNeed on Saturday 2nd August 12:12
Alpinestars said:
franki68 said:
no,of course arabs were displaced,as I mentioned previously some were forced out,some left through fear ,some left because the arab league told them too,and some didnt leave.The use of the word cleansing though is odious,has it been applied to any other displaced population ? And they are not the indigenous people.It is a land that has been conquered many times and had massive immigration into it at many points throughout history .
the palestinians have claimed to be descended from the philistines (I think someone referred to that on this thread earlier) ,but since it was pointed out the philistines were actually greek/cypriot invaders ,the palestinians now try to claim they were descendants of the caanites.
the oNly constant has been a near continual jewish presence for 3000 years.
may I suggest some research on the dna shared between those palestinians who have long ties to israel and the jews ,it suggests that they are descended from jews ,its actually something both sides agree on...keeping quiet.It suits neither side to admit to it,but it is an interesting area of research.
Ok let's not call it ethnic cleansing. Call it what you will. But you accept that some of the population was forced out by terror. And appear to be saying that there seems be some right of return because Palestine is some sort of ancestral home? Even though it appears that a lot of the Jewish settlers were not originally from the area - but that's a moot point I think. the palestinians have claimed to be descended from the philistines (I think someone referred to that on this thread earlier) ,but since it was pointed out the philistines were actually greek/cypriot invaders ,the palestinians now try to claim they were descendants of the caanites.
the oNly constant has been a near continual jewish presence for 3000 years.
may I suggest some research on the dna shared between those palestinians who have long ties to israel and the jews ,it suggests that they are descended from jews ,its actually something both sides agree on...keeping quiet.It suits neither side to admit to it,but it is an interesting area of research.
Do the same rights apply to the current Palestinians who are terrorising Israel? Do they not have the same rights? And if not, why not?
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