Discussion
Alpinestars said:
allnighter said:
Indeed. Ethnic cleansing in this case is the systematic and forced removal of the members of an ethnic group from communities in order to change the ethnic composition of a given region.
This begs the question what do pro-Israel revisionists think Zionism is? If they wish to pass Zionism off as an inclusive ideology, then why were the Zionists so adamantly against the refugees right of return? They know as well as Ben-Gurion did and Benny Morris does, that the Jewish State does not want Arabs.
So, why are the ardent pro-Israel camp on here trying to hide what the beloved founding father Ben-Gurion said
[note]Edited by allnighter on Saturday 2nd August 12:56[/footnote]
Edited by allnighter on Saturday 2nd August 23:03
Qwert1e said:
A post like that could only be made by a complete ignoramus. I suggest you take a look at Monty Python's Life of Brian to get a feel for the subject and then check out the list below,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
•Muslims translated most of the scientific works of antiquity into Arabic.
•Muslim mathematicians devised and developed Algebra.
•Al-Khwarazmi used Arabic numerals which came to the West through his work in the 9th century.
•Al-Razi described and treated smallpox in the 10th century.
•Al-Razi also used alcohol as an antiseptic.
•Ibn Sina diagnosed and treated meningitis in the 11th century.
•Ibn al-Haytham discovered the Camera Obscura in the 11th century.
•Al-Biruni described the Ganges valley as a sedimentary basin in the 11th century.
•Muslims built the first observatory as a scientific institution in the 13th century.
•Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi explained the cause of the rainbow in the 13th century.
•Ibn al-Nafis described the minor circulation of the blood in the 14th century.
•Al-Kashani invented a computing machine in the 15th century.
That is really sad. With all that academic history, tied in with oil being found in Arab countries, meaning they are also the richest countries in the world, I can only believe that Islam has driven the Arabs back into the Stone Age.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE
•Muslims translated most of the scientific works of antiquity into Arabic.
•Muslim mathematicians devised and developed Algebra.
•Al-Khwarazmi used Arabic numerals which came to the West through his work in the 9th century.
•Al-Razi described and treated smallpox in the 10th century.
•Al-Razi also used alcohol as an antiseptic.
•Ibn Sina diagnosed and treated meningitis in the 11th century.
•Ibn al-Haytham discovered the Camera Obscura in the 11th century.
•Al-Biruni described the Ganges valley as a sedimentary basin in the 11th century.
•Muslims built the first observatory as a scientific institution in the 13th century.
•Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi explained the cause of the rainbow in the 13th century.
•Ibn al-Nafis described the minor circulation of the blood in the 14th century.
•Al-Kashani invented a computing machine in the 15th century.
Just think how great a life the children in the middle wast could be leading without Islam.
audidoody said:
league67 said:
So when Bibi says hitting arabs hard, he means hitting Hamas fighters hard. Does that mean when Hamas calls for killing of Israelis, they actually mean killing only IDF soldiers?
One terrorist organization killed over 1600 people in a few weeks, the other killed less than 100. One killed mostly civilians, the other killed less than two percent civilians.
Ah but what about Jenin!?! Yes, what about Jenin.
Ah, of course, I forgot, Palestinians actually 'love death' so IDF is just fulfilling their wishes, kind of like Santa and it's not even Christmas.
Santa? Christmas? In a thread about Jews and Muslims? One terrorist organization killed over 1600 people in a few weeks, the other killed less than 100. One killed mostly civilians, the other killed less than two percent civilians.
Ah but what about Jenin!?! Yes, what about Jenin.
Ah, of course, I forgot, Palestinians actually 'love death' so IDF is just fulfilling their wishes, kind of like Santa and it's not even Christmas.
You really are a stranger to coherent thought aren't you?
Audidoody, I'll choose my words carefully and I'll type slowly so even someone like you can understand it.
You used 'Heil' in the thread about Israel. You did that because you are an idiot and you have no respect for what Jews went through. I would urge you to get some education, to visit places like Treblinka, Jasenovac, Sajmiste or at least read about them. Maybe then you'd get it why using the word in that context was offensive. But I doubt it. I personally think that you are so stupid that you are beyond redemption.
You demonstrated, not only by thinking that there was a conspiracy with pictures, but by the fact that you didn't even ask yourself; 'Hmm, Washington Post, would they check for authenticity'. After that you were quoting from uncyclopedia. Was the name of the website not a hint?
You perceive that this is a thread about Jews and Muslims. It's not. It's titled Israeli and it deals with current situation in Gaza. Your prejudices, and your ability to see world only as black vs white, good vs evil, Jews vs Muslim stops you from being able to see beyond that. IMO, just like that ribena person, you need to see world as binary in order for it to make sense to you. I doubt that anyone can help you with that.
And yes Santa, as the mythical fat bloke who make wishes and desires come true. I'd say 'take your time to figure it out', but that would be wasted on you.
[Off topic ends]
Scuffers said:
JuniorD said:
If only they spent as much time developing surveillance as they do on internet security and telecoms.
Quite incredible that they are so apparently advanced yet their crudely beseiged neighbours live in UN schools and use donkeys and carts for transport.
Oh do give it a rest, you have no idea do you?Quite incredible that they are so apparently advanced yet their crudely beseiged neighbours live in UN schools and use donkeys and carts for transport.
Its a f
king war zone, and with the best will and technology available, st happens.Artillery shells are not accurate to the mm, combined with targeting stuff that's on the fly.
Yes, its unfortunate that the UN school got hit, but in the bigger picture, is it really surprising or that big a deal?
The UN local staff have not e factly helped themselves, they seem to have a huge arrogance that just because they're the UN, they're above reproach and f
king up.If the nutters start to store rockets in your schools etc, what do you think you should do about it?
If they then start to fire rockets next to your compounds, its pretty f
king obvious what's coming next..They could have done a lot more to mitigate this by talking to the idf real time.
If you want stop the slaughter
Two words
Racism
Apartheid
There is no defence .
In my posts only one person has challenged apartheid .
He or she misrepresented what I posted and-then backed down
Arguing about dates UN resolutions and what happened years ago is honey to the
zionists on this thread .
If you want to win the argument pick the ground .
You might save a life .
1700 dead people in a concentration camp now .
Apartheid .... You know it , they know it ...use it for the description that's true .
Two words
Racism
Apartheid
There is no defence .
In my posts only one person has challenged apartheid .
He or she misrepresented what I posted and-then backed down
Arguing about dates UN resolutions and what happened years ago is honey to the
zionists on this thread .
If you want to win the argument pick the ground .
You might save a life .
1700 dead people in a concentration camp now .
Apartheid .... You know it , they know it ...use it for the description that's true .
allnighter said:
h you see it's different for the new underdogs this time around, there is no uncle Sam or uncle Vladimir to bank roll or provide military support and training for a well organised Palestinian army/navy/air force to engage in terrorist activities and ethnic cleansing in order to reclaim homes, villages and lands lost in the 40s, bring back Palestinian refugees and unilaterally declare a state of Palestine.
Why the uproar from the pro Israelis when Hamas "terrorises" Israel with the aim of securing land and rights when Zionists did exactly the same in the 40s? Edited by allnighter on Saturday 2nd August 23:03
It's a moral question, not one of capability.
Can anyone articulate the differentiating factors that make the creation of Israel morally superior to what Hamas is doing now?
So Haldar Godin wasn't captured by Hamas after all.
Will the Palestinian city of Rafah, pulverized after the Israelis assumed he had been kidnapped, now get an apology? Will it st.
So do we look at the break in the ceasefire differently now? After all, it was Israel that was continuing operations against the tunnels during the ceasefire.
If we assume that until that point, in accordance with the agreement, no Hamas missiles has been launched, who bears the blame for the collapse?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/israe...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286278...
Ironic that it now appears that Hamas were the ones being truthful all along.
IMO, if no rockets had been fired until that point then Hamas held up its end of the agreement.
Hamas is not some all encompassing organization. In the field people will do what they want because they are not part of some official military.
You cannot agree a ceasefire then blame Hamas for the actions of some people who may not actually be taking any notice of what is happening higher up.
I'll say it again, if there were no rockets until that point then Hamas stuck to the agreement, as that is likely the only militaristic entity that they have full control over.
Imagine you live in Rafah, having just had everything around you blown to bits in an action of pure retaliatory spite for the supposed capture of a soldier. When you find out it never happened in the first place, what would you feel? Its a wonder that people are still surprised that Palestinians continue to join Hamas. If the above had happened in Ireland with British military action in response to an invented captured soldier peoples opinions would be very very different.
Will the Palestinian city of Rafah, pulverized after the Israelis assumed he had been kidnapped, now get an apology? Will it s
t.So do we look at the break in the ceasefire differently now? After all, it was Israel that was continuing operations against the tunnels during the ceasefire.
If we assume that until that point, in accordance with the agreement, no Hamas missiles has been launched, who bears the blame for the collapse?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/israe...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286278...
Ironic that it now appears that Hamas were the ones being truthful all along.
IMO, if no rockets had been fired until that point then Hamas held up its end of the agreement.
Hamas is not some all encompassing organization. In the field people will do what they want because they are not part of some official military.
You cannot agree a ceasefire then blame Hamas for the actions of some people who may not actually be taking any notice of what is happening higher up.
I'll say it again, if there were no rockets until that point then Hamas stuck to the agreement, as that is likely the only militaristic entity that they have full control over.
Imagine you live in Rafah, having just had everything around you blown to bits in an action of pure retaliatory spite for the supposed capture of a soldier. When you find out it never happened in the first place, what would you feel? Its a wonder that people are still surprised that Palestinians continue to join Hamas. If the above had happened in Ireland with British military action in response to an invented captured soldier peoples opinions would be very very different.
Edited by -Z- on Sunday 3rd August 07:58
-Z- said:
So Haldar Godin wasn't captured by Hamas after all.
Will the Palestinian city of Rafah, pulverized after the Israelis assumed he had been kidnapped, now get an apology? Will it st.
So do we look at the break in the ceasefire differently now? After all, it was Israel that was continuing operations against the tunnels during the ceasefire.
Whether a soldier was captured or not doesn't change the fact that an Israeli unit was attacked during the ceasefire period. It may well be that the heavy airstrikes were intended to kill the captured soldier, along with his captors.Will the Palestinian city of Rafah, pulverized after the Israelis assumed he had been kidnapped, now get an apology? Will it s
t.So do we look at the break in the ceasefire differently now? After all, it was Israel that was continuing operations against the tunnels during the ceasefire.
JagLover said:
Whether a soldier was captured or not doesn't change the fact that an Israeli unit was attacked during the ceasefire period. It may well be that the heavy airstrikes were intended to kill the captured soldier, along with his captors.
An Israeli unit that was actively involved in operations inside Gaza at the time. And how do you know what happened? Israel doesn't as we now know. Maybe the Israelis opened fire first on seeing armed Palestinians? They've done it before after all, shoot first and ask questions later.Like I said, do you reckon the Palestinians in the tunnels have a direct line to Hamas high command? I'm guessing they can't use mobiles or radios in a tunnel so is it possible they just didn't know or didn't care? When it came down to it, it may have been a few Palestinians in their 20's who were suddenly face to face with an armed enemy trying to blow up the very tunnel they were in.
They have no training or command structure to tell them what to do, and Israel took another 100 Palestinian lives based on a guess.
In any case Israel blamed them for the collapse of the ceasefire and killed another 100 civilians in reatliation. It was an action that was acknowledged to be over the top in an attempt to get Hamas to release the non-existant soldier.
Israel and Netanyahu f
ked up in a big big way. All based on assumptions.Edited by -Z- on Sunday 3rd August 08:36
The first three unfortunate boys were also blamed on Hamas but then turned out to be not killed by Hamas.
...makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
...makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
LaSource said:
The first three unfortunate boys were also blamed on Hamas but then turned out to be not killed by Hamas.
...makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
Nail. Head....makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
-Z- said:
An Israeli unit that was actively involved in operations inside Gaza at the time. And how do you know what happened? Israel doesn't as we now know. Maybe the Israelis opened fire first on seeing armed Palestinians? They've done it before after all, shoot first and ask questions later.
Like I said, do you reckon the Palestinians in the tunnels have a direct line to Hamas high command? I'm guessing they can't use mobiles or radios in a tunnel so is it possible they just didn't know or didn't care? When it came down to it, it may have been a few Palestinians in their 20's who were suddenly face to face with an armed enemy trying to blow up the very tunnel they were in.
They have no training or command structure to tell them what to do, and Israel took another 100 Palestinian lives based on a guess.
In any case Israel blamed them for the collapse of the ceasefire and killed another 100 civilians in reatliation. It was an action that was acknowledged to be over the top in an attempt to get Hamas to release the non-existant soldier.
Israel and Netanyahu fked up in a big big way. All based on assumptions.
Actually depending on the radio and the tunnel construction you can use radio's.Like I said, do you reckon the Palestinians in the tunnels have a direct line to Hamas high command? I'm guessing they can't use mobiles or radios in a tunnel so is it possible they just didn't know or didn't care? When it came down to it, it may have been a few Palestinians in their 20's who were suddenly face to face with an armed enemy trying to blow up the very tunnel they were in.
They have no training or command structure to tell them what to do, and Israel took another 100 Palestinian lives based on a guess.
In any case Israel blamed them for the collapse of the ceasefire and killed another 100 civilians in reatliation. It was an action that was acknowledged to be over the top in an attempt to get Hamas to release the non-existant soldier.
Israel and Netanyahu f
ked up in a big big way. All based on assumptions.Edited by -Z- on Sunday 3rd August 08:36
UHF penetrates better than VHF though the latter tends to offer greater range in open environments.
Another weapons dump hit in Gaza, and when I say weapons dump, I mean school.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286286...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286286...
-Z- said:
LaSource said:
The first three unfortunate boys were also blamed on Hamas but then turned out to be not killed by Hamas.
...makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
Nail. Head....makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
but that's OK, cause Israelis are bad people who are only interested in trying to live productive, peaceful lives and not to be under constant threat of annihilation 24/7/52 by ill educated extremist nutters lead by self-interested leaders that are not even in the same country living it up on aid money etc....
You actually wonder what Israel's non-public long term aim is (I'm talking about a time-scale of decades to centuries) and if what they're doing now and every few years is just baby steps towards that long-term goal? IF I was a hard-core Zionist/Israel; I would one day want ALL of the West Bank and Gaza for myself. I would want a one-state solution with all of Israel/Palestine, but with none of the Palestinians in it.
I'm just postulating here, but IF this was your aim; how would you go about achieving it? Maybe slowly encroach into Gaza and the West Bank with settlements. Besiege the Palestinians and stop vital supplies getting in, bomb them every few years with a show of your military power to show them who's boss and basically either let them fizzle out by reducing the birthrate/health of the population or hope they are displaced to neighbouring countries over the next decades to centuries?
I for one am totally sickened by the overall air of legitimacy that Israel has enjoyed over the last few decades in that it "can do no wrong." We've seen recently just how happy Israeli's and their supporters are in playing the anti-semetic card when someone dares criticise Israel for their illegal (UN defined) actions (you just have to look at the various celebrities who have been forced to backtrack after saying seemingly innocent things about the conflict). The real barriers to peace is the Israeli's themselves and the actions of the USA, with recently a bit of Hamas thrown in. It is little wonder why the USA is hated in so many parts of the World and WHY there were celebrations on the street after 9/11. Perhaps a little bit of "now you know how we feel" mentality (Just to add, I find any celebration of death distasteful and morally unacceptable.)
For all definitions; Israel is an (illegal) occupying power. Just because the Palestinians don't have tanks, planes and "soldiers" in uniform; we've been conditioned to think that the actions of Israel's army has a greater degree of legitimacy; however the tide is turning and more of the World are seeing Israel for what it really is. Of course the numpties at Hamas should stop firing their rockets at Israeli civilians and at least be one party to stop the tit-for-tat violence; but what other option do they have to try and "resist" the takeover of their country? What would you do if 5 of your family members died in an Israeli air-strike and saw more and more of your countries land being taken away whilst they forced you to live in open air prisons? I think many of the posters here are having a laugh if they can't even begin to even empathise a little with the plight of the Palestinians.
I'm just postulating here, but IF this was your aim; how would you go about achieving it? Maybe slowly encroach into Gaza and the West Bank with settlements. Besiege the Palestinians and stop vital supplies getting in, bomb them every few years with a show of your military power to show them who's boss and basically either let them fizzle out by reducing the birthrate/health of the population or hope they are displaced to neighbouring countries over the next decades to centuries?
I for one am totally sickened by the overall air of legitimacy that Israel has enjoyed over the last few decades in that it "can do no wrong." We've seen recently just how happy Israeli's and their supporters are in playing the anti-semetic card when someone dares criticise Israel for their illegal (UN defined) actions (you just have to look at the various celebrities who have been forced to backtrack after saying seemingly innocent things about the conflict). The real barriers to peace is the Israeli's themselves and the actions of the USA, with recently a bit of Hamas thrown in. It is little wonder why the USA is hated in so many parts of the World and WHY there were celebrations on the street after 9/11. Perhaps a little bit of "now you know how we feel" mentality (Just to add, I find any celebration of death distasteful and morally unacceptable.)
For all definitions; Israel is an (illegal) occupying power. Just because the Palestinians don't have tanks, planes and "soldiers" in uniform; we've been conditioned to think that the actions of Israel's army has a greater degree of legitimacy; however the tide is turning and more of the World are seeing Israel for what it really is. Of course the numpties at Hamas should stop firing their rockets at Israeli civilians and at least be one party to stop the tit-for-tat violence; but what other option do they have to try and "resist" the takeover of their country? What would you do if 5 of your family members died in an Israeli air-strike and saw more and more of your countries land being taken away whilst they forced you to live in open air prisons? I think many of the posters here are having a laugh if they can't even begin to even empathise a little with the plight of the Palestinians.
league67 said:
Another weapons dump hit in Gaza, and when I say weapons dump, I mean school.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286286...
It really is time our governments took action, whether that be sanctions or sending troops to "police" the area. It is no wonder that Islamic terror groups find it so easy to recruit when we say one thing for others yet do something else for them.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-286286...
Israel needs to start to respect international law, it needs to respect laws that it expects it's own people to follow and it needs to start soon as feelings against it will only get worse.
Scuffers said:
-Z- said:
LaSource said:
The first three unfortunate boys were also blamed on Hamas but then turned out to be not killed by Hamas.
...makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
Nail. Head....makes you wonder whether trigger happy IDF/Israeli gov are stumbling from one excuse to another....or (more likely imv) this is such a propaganda driven war that the IDF/Israeli gov are fully aware that they are making it up (like they were in the case of the boys) in order to provide an immediate (barely legal) rationale for collective action/punishment and feed the emotions of their supporters at home and abroad.
but that's OK, cause Israelis are bad people who are only interested in trying to live productive, peaceful lives and not to be under constant threat of annihilation 24/7/52 by ill educated extremist nutters lead by self-interested leaders that are not even in the same country living it up on aid money etc....
Apart from the 2 Israeli and 1 Thai civilian, the 1000+ dead are all on the gaza side. The gazans are terrorised by American and Israeli weaponry usually fired to stay within thin legal grounds (e.g. If a civilian runs back into a targeted building then they can be officially classed as a human shield)
Anyway, carry on.
Jimbeaux said:
league67 said:
So when Bibi says hitting arabs hard, he means hitting Hamas fighters hard. Does that mean when Hamas calls for killing of Israelis, they actually mean killing only IDF soldiers?
One terrorist organization killed over 1600 people in a few weeks, the other killed less than 100. One killed mostly civilians, the other killed less than two percent civilians.
Ah but what about Jenin!?! Yes, what about Jenin.
Ah, of course, I forgot, Palestinians actually 'love death' so IDF is just fulfilling their wishes, kind of like Santa and it's not even Christmas.
League, that is really not accurate IMO. Hamas would kill more if they were capable. The IDF could kill far more than they have. Capability does not equal intent. One terrorist organization killed over 1600 people in a few weeks, the other killed less than 100. One killed mostly civilians, the other killed less than two percent civilians.
Ah but what about Jenin!?! Yes, what about Jenin.
Ah, of course, I forgot, Palestinians actually 'love death' so IDF is just fulfilling their wishes, kind of like Santa and it's not even Christmas.
If Hamas were to publicly state that they only target IDF, and that civilians are 'collateral, unintended' damage, the same way that Israeli government keeps repeating, would they cease to be terror group? Even if they did exactly the same thing as they do now? Would IDF become, in eyes of supporters, terrorist organization if they say that they are targeting Palestinians/Arabs? As Bibi did.
Once again, one 'organization' killed more than 1700 people, minority of them 'combatants'.
Other one killed less than 70, only 3 of them civilians.
Intent? With all the military superiority, are we still talking about intent? Are we still talking about how IDF could kill more. Should Palestinians be grateful that they haven't been slaughtered in even greater numbers? Would that argument still stand if number of Palestinians killed reaches 100.000? 300.000? 1.000.000? Where is the magic number?
I don't think, as I stated before, that IDF is out to kill as many Palestinians as they can. I do think it's about collective punishment, because of who they wanted into 'power'. Which, in itself, is a war crime.
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