Discussion
Scuffers said:
that would be somewhat hard (unless he's ~100+ years old)
only camp I can think of that comes even close is Guantanamo bay...
Yep, but if one is going to use "logic" like trying to refute the comparison by only having experience of one of the two comparators, the argument loses its credibility. Especially when the challenge from Frankie was whether RedTrident had ever been to Gaza. It's academic, given Frankie has never been to a concentration camp. Moot point. only camp I can think of that comes even close is Guantanamo bay...
Scuffers said:
more predictable guff...
what's the point? with masterminds like you on the scene... I'm surprised you're not out there doing a stand-up job on TV for Hamas, bit like comical Ali did for Iraq!
Don't judge everyone by your own, very low standards. Unlike you, I don't support any terrorist organization. I know that you are slow, so from the top; I know that Hamas and IDF are terrorist organizations. One is much more effective at killing civilians than the other. It doesn't make either of them better. You keep accusing people of being Hamas supporters, which is obviously not true. I don't see anyone saying that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. But you keep lying. what's the point? with masterminds like you on the scene... I'm surprised you're not out there doing a stand-up job on TV for Hamas, bit like comical Ali did for Iraq!
You are a simple conspiracy theorist. Proud victim card holder. For you, in order for world to make sense, everything needs to be very simple. 'If you are not supporting Israel, you are supporting Hamas'. Once again, don't have kids.
league67 said:
I know that Hamas and IDF are terrorist organizations.
no point in reading beyond this line.the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
Allow me to put up this proposition.
When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
Of course this is all wishful thinking on my part and takes no account of the various Arab Countries and Iran and Muslim fundamentalists who feel their best interests are not served by a peace agreement with Israel.
When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
Of course this is all wishful thinking on my part and takes no account of the various Arab Countries and Iran and Muslim fundamentalists who feel their best interests are not served by a peace agreement with Israel.
avinalarf said:
Allow me to put up this proposition.
When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
Of course this is all wishful thinking on my part and takes no account of the various Arab Countries and Iran and Muslim fundamentalists who feel their best interests are not served by a peace agreement with Israel.
can't argue with that, problem is Hamas also exist in the west bank (along with a host of other nutjobs)When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
Of course this is all wishful thinking on my part and takes no account of the various Arab Countries and Iran and Muslim fundamentalists who feel their best interests are not served by a peace agreement with Israel.
given more time, it may well happen, Fatah are getting better but you need to remember what they have been like in the past.
Scuffers said:
no point in reading beyond this line.
the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
The Kenyans might have a view on that question. In fact, Barack Hussein Obama might be someone to ask that question.the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
Mau Mau compensation for British Atrocities in Kenya.
The behaviour of, not the assumed status, determines that legitimacy.
The survivors of the USS liberty might also have something to say on the matter.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 21st August 10:54
t for the land of human-rights-are-us bleeding hearts lawyers.QuantumTokoloshi said:
Ignoring the bluster and nonsensical reply, anything useful to contribute on the point ?
the point is that if you trawl through history, almost every country has episodes in it's past that were not their finest hour.I see little point in randomly dragging up such incidents to try and justify such and such a country are a terrorist state.
franki68]lpinestars said:
On the basis of that analysis, were you ever in a concentation camp?[/
I've been to pontins which is similar.
Look you are arguing for the sake of arguing as an internet warrior , if you think there is a comparison you're a dick .
Internet warrior? You're the only one throwing insults around. Your statement was clearly not very intelligent. I pointed out the obvious flaw in it. You've previously accepted that Israel was created by the use of some terrot. So why are you getting a hard on now that Hamas is terrorising Israel? What goes round comes round. I've been to pontins which is similar.
Look you are arguing for the sake of arguing as an internet warrior , if you think there is a comparison you're a dick .
Alpinestars said:
You've previously accepted that Israel was created by the use of some terror.
so, even the UN are a terrorist organisation now then?this is just piss funny, where do you get this stuff from? there's enough material here for at least a couple of 'have I got news for you' episodes I reckon!
Scuffers said:
no point in reading beyond this line.
the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
If The British Army was occupying another country, carrying out bombing resulting in so many civilian casualties, supporting settlement building, installing military checkpoints etc I'm positive the British public would be against it.the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
"Just following orders" wasn't an acceptable excuse in previous conflicts. It isn't now.
Scuffers said:
so, even the UN are a terrorist organisation now then?
this is just piss funny, where do you get this stuff from? there's enough material here for at least a couple of 'have I got news for you' episodes I reckon!
I didn't appreciate the UN owned land in Palestine to be able to give it away to migrants.this is just piss funny, where do you get this stuff from? there's enough material here for at least a couple of 'have I got news for you' episodes I reckon!
It's a bit pointless debating points now as people are so entrenched in their views, but I'll try yet again with some quotes from some Israeli leaders.
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?" Ben Gurion.
"They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" Ben Gurion.
"Politically we are the the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down" Ben Gurion.
Before [the Palestinians'] very eyes we are possessing their land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived... We are the generation of colonisers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home" Moshe Dayan.
"The Arabs will be our problem for a long time." "It's not going to be simple. On day the may have to leave and let us have the country. They're ten to one, but done we Jews have ten times their intelligence?" Chaim Weizmann.
"With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it" Benny Morris.
"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country... The Zionist enterprise so far.. has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with "land buying" - but this will not bring about the State of Israel: that must come all at once, in the manner of Salvation: and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe. Edward Said.
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion... The attackers lined men, women and children against the walls and shot them... The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and wold opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country" Smiha Flapan.
Now tell me who the terrorist is. In the great words of a leading Israeli military leader, "one man's terrorism is another man's freedom fighter". I suspect if you asked a Palestinian and indeed many people who have served in the IDF, Israel terrorises the Palestinians on a day to day to day basis.
Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 21st August 12:43
avinalarf said:
Allow me to put up this proposition.
When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
I agree 100%When Hamas took power in Gaza,Israel would have been better off coming to a peace agreement with Fatah in the West Bank.
Pulled out of settlements and split Jerusalem.
Under this agreement Fatah would recognise Israel and sign a peace agreement.
The West then could have helped Israel improve the infrastructure of the West Bank and give the Palestinians a chance to improve their lives.
avinalarf said:
Of course this is all wishful thinking on my part and takes no account of the various Arab Countries and Iran and Muslim fundamentalists who feel their best interests are not served by a peace agreement with Israel.
As I said earlier Egypt and Jordan already have peace treaties. Syria has said it would recognise Israel / make peace if the Golan Heights were returned. But the truth of the matter is the Israeli Govt doesn't want peace or even need peace. Which is why we are where we are.Alpinestars said:
Scuffers said:
so, even the UN are a terrorist organisation now then?
this is just piss funny, where do you get this stuff from? there's enough material here for at least a couple of 'have I got news for you' episodes I reckon!
I didn't appreciate the UN owned land in Palestine to be able to give it away to migrants.this is just piss funny, where do you get this stuff from? there's enough material here for at least a couple of 'have I got news for you' episodes I reckon!
It's a bit pointless debating points now as people are so entrenched in their views, but I'll try yet again with some quotes from some Israeli leaders.
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?" Ben Gurion.
"They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" Ben Gurion.
"Politically we are the the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down" Ben Gurion.
Before [the Palestinians'] very eyes we are possessing their land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived... We are the generation of colonisers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home" Moshe Dayan.
"The Arabs will be our problem for a long time." "It's not going to be simple. On day the may have to leave and let us have the country. They're ten to one, but done we Jews have ten times their intelligence?" Chaim Weizmann.
"With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it" Benny Morris.
"It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country... The Zionist enterprise so far.. has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with "land buying" - but this will not bring about the State of Israel: that must come all at once, in the manner of Salvation: and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth, and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe. Edward Said.
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion... The attackers lined men, women and children against the walls and shot them... The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and wold opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country" Smiha Flapan.
Now tell me who the terrorist is. In the great words of a leading Israeli military leader, "one man's terrorism is another man's freedom fighter". I suspect if you asked a Palestinian and indeed many people who have served in the IDF, Israel terrorises the Palestinians on a day to day to day basis. se people.
Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 21st August 12:39
Countdown said:
Scuffers said:
no point in reading beyond this line.
the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
If The British Army was occupying another country, carrying out bombing resulting in so many civilian casualties, supporting settlement building, installing military checkpoints etc I'm positive the British public would be against it.the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
"Just following orders" wasn't an acceptable excuse in previous conflicts. It isn't now.
you might want to look up what we did during the days of the British Empire or even more recently in Afghanistan!
actually, we pretty much did all that in Palestine before the creation of Israel!
Scuffers said:
league67 said:
I know that Hamas and IDF are terrorist organizations.
no point in reading beyond this line.the IDF are Israel's standing arm much as the British army are, or are you saying they are a terrorist organization?
if you're then going to claim Israel are a terrorist state, then I'm sorry, you have just demonstrated why your views are somewhat as extreme as Hamas and co.
I understand why are you aligning your views and looking for proof from mentally ill person. I really do.
Alpinestars said:
Internet warrior? You're the only one throwing insults around. Your statement was clearly not very intelligent. I pointed out the obvious flaw in it. You've previously accepted that Israel was created by the use of some terrot. So why are you getting a hard on now that Hamas is terrorising Israel? What goes round comes round.
why wasn't it intelligent ? I can comment on things I have seen and experienced ,I have a fair idea about concentration camps one complete side of my family was wiped out in them ,I know several survivors and there is more than enough information around to have a reasonable idea of what they were like .Ive done the 'arent we deprived ' gaza tour as undertaken by many activists,a bit like doing a tour of manchester and being taken to moss side alone ,and I've seen other parts of gaza the 'tourists' dont get to see.I have a fair idea what I am talking about .
you're doing everything but dealing with the point.is gaza like a concentration camp yes or no ?
Scuffers said:
did you really just post that?
you might want to look up what we did during the days of the British Empire or even more recently in Afghanistan!
actually, we pretty much did all that in Palestine before the creation of Israel!
That's a weak answer, at best.you might want to look up what we did during the days of the British Empire or even more recently in Afghanistan!
actually, we pretty much did all that in Palestine before the creation of Israel!
How many British settlements are there in Israel/Palestine? Or in Afghanistan? How many countries does the UK occupy with a view towards permanent annexation? How many people live under British military rule? How many children have the Britsh Army arrested or have been shot by British Army snipers?
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