Discussion
If we are going to start quoting JC,
http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/121588/most-...
Note the author.
http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/121588/most-...
Note the author.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-289167...
Dare I say it, I think they have more authority than a couple of people on this thread who believe that up until now "maybe a few children have died" and who put up vile posts about the killing of children.
I was told many years ago to try and place yourself in the "opposing teams" frame of mind so you could see where they were coming from and allows for a bit of empathy for the other side. I think most rational people do this and can come to a well-rounded decision, but what always strikes me in these types of internet debates is that there is always a small subset that has no ability whatsoever to do this and digest evidence fairly and equally.
How do rational debaters get their view of the World? The digest information/evidence fairly and then come to a conclusion. New evidence sometimes comes out that allows them to change their decision/conclusion. People can disagree using the exact same evidence; but that's allowed as we all have different mindsets. Call it the "Scientific Method" if you will.
How do irrational debaters come to a conclusion? They already hold a strong pre-set conclusion and they then twist evidence to try and make it fit their point of view. Discount/discredit strong evidence that goes against their decision and support equally as weak evidence that supports them. Some do it more purposefully (akin to a Lawyer fighting a case in court) but the worst debaters are those that don't even have the insight to know they are doing this.
Most of us fall in between these 2 camps when it comes to Politics, but there are some who are completely on the wrong end of "camp 2" where balanced discussion becomes nearly impossible without them resorting to smoke and mirrors.
Dare I say it, I think they have more authority than a couple of people on this thread who believe that up until now "maybe a few children have died" and who put up vile posts about the killing of children.
I was told many years ago to try and place yourself in the "opposing teams" frame of mind so you could see where they were coming from and allows for a bit of empathy for the other side. I think most rational people do this and can come to a well-rounded decision, but what always strikes me in these types of internet debates is that there is always a small subset that has no ability whatsoever to do this and digest evidence fairly and equally.
How do rational debaters get their view of the World? The digest information/evidence fairly and then come to a conclusion. New evidence sometimes comes out that allows them to change their decision/conclusion. People can disagree using the exact same evidence; but that's allowed as we all have different mindsets. Call it the "Scientific Method" if you will.
How do irrational debaters come to a conclusion? They already hold a strong pre-set conclusion and they then twist evidence to try and make it fit their point of view. Discount/discredit strong evidence that goes against their decision and support equally as weak evidence that supports them. Some do it more purposefully (akin to a Lawyer fighting a case in court) but the worst debaters are those that don't even have the insight to know they are doing this.
Most of us fall in between these 2 camps when it comes to Politics, but there are some who are completely on the wrong end of "camp 2" where balanced discussion becomes nearly impossible without them resorting to smoke and mirrors.
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
With regards to Cyprus - the only reason the Turkish Army is able to "rule" is because of the consent of the majority of the population.
So that makes it ok then?You really can't see the difference, can you?
The point I was raising was that the Turkish were not in the majority. They carried out ethnic cleansing and murder to make themselves the majority. And yet nobody bats an eye lid about it today.
Or am I wrong? Are you as aggrieved and outraged about them as you are about the Zionist terrorists?
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
Countdown said:
With regards to Cyprus - the only reason the Turkish Army is able to "rule" is because of the consent of the majority of the population.
So that makes it ok then?You really can't see the difference, can you?
The point I was raising was that the Turkish were not in the majority. They carried out ethnic cleansing and murder to make themselves the majority. And yet nobody bats an eye lid about it today.
Or am I wrong? Are you as aggrieved and outraged about them as you are about the Zionist terrorists?
And I don't think anybody knows your mind, including you.
Another 'collateral damage' inflicted by terrorists.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/israeli-playing-hebr...
No rockets, no Hamas, no 'human shields'.
And those 'orrible anti-Semites;
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/israeli-playing-hebr...
No rockets, no Hamas, no 'human shields'.
And those 'orrible anti-Semites;
Auschwitz survivor said:
Hajo Meyer, a survivor of Auschwitz who lives in the Netherlands expressed outrage at the racism coming out of Israel. “The dehumanization of Jews is what made possible the Nazi genocide. In the same way, we are witnessing the escalating dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society.
Countdown said:
Nobody bats an eyelid about it today because Turkey isn't bombing Greek Cypriots, Turkey isn't building Settlements in the Greek half of Cyprus, and Turkey isn't saying it needs to do this because of its inalienable right to exist. Can you see the difference yet?
And I don't think anybody knows your mind, including you.
No of course they are not doing it now. However to obtain the land they did in 74. 196,000 people forced to move. And I don't think anybody knows your mind, including you.
But hey that's fine for them then. Everyone has forgotten and now jumps on the Zionist bandwagon.
Keep the insults coming. Between you and that other little man you might just make 3 brain cells.
zuby84 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-289167...
Dare I say it, I think they have more authority than a couple of people on this thread who believe that up until now "maybe a few children have died" and who put up vile posts about the killing of children.
interesting to note the poster they were complaining about...Dare I say it, I think they have more authority than a couple of people on this thread who believe that up until now "maybe a few children have died" and who put up vile posts about the killing of children.
Look, get back to basics then, what is Israel to do with Gaza?
way I see it, if they lifted the blockade, all that will happen is more Israelis will get killed, (and likely more palestinians too).
what I find interesting is that we are all banging on about Gaza, yet the West Bank is relatively calm, no blockade, no rocket attacks, and relatively speaking, people can come and go as they please (yes I know it's far from perfect, but it's a whole lot better than Gaza).
Abbass must be tearing his hair out at Hamas, just as he's making real progress, they basically f**k it all up (again).
Just reading the local rag here, and there's a bit in it about a local family whose brother is was palestinian doctor in Gaza and got caught up when his house was flattened (got the warnings, got family out, went back to get something etc etc), all very sad, the bit that surprised me was the tone of the bother (also a doctor here) was not anti Israel, just very sad for the situation that's cost his brothers life.
Scuffers said:
Look, get back to basics then, what is Israel to do with Gaza?
way I see it, if they lifted the blockade, all that will happen is more Israelis will get killed, (and likely more palestinians too).
what I find interesting is that we are all banging on about Gaza, yet the West Bank is relatively calm, no blockade, no rocket attacks, and relatively speaking, people can come and go as they please (yes I know it's far from perfect, but it's a whole lot better than Gaza).
Abbass must be tearing his hair out at Hamas, just as he's making real progress, they basically f**k it all up (again).
And there you have the real question after the rights and wrongs debate. I would be very interested in hearing the views of the most vocal anti Zionists on here. How would they solve it? Serious question.way I see it, if they lifted the blockade, all that will happen is more Israelis will get killed, (and likely more palestinians too).
what I find interesting is that we are all banging on about Gaza, yet the West Bank is relatively calm, no blockade, no rocket attacks, and relatively speaking, people can come and go as they please (yes I know it's far from perfect, but it's a whole lot better than Gaza).
Abbass must be tearing his hair out at Hamas, just as he's making real progress, they basically f**k it all up (again).
Grumfutock said:
No of course they are not doing it now. However to obtain the land they did in 74. 196,000 people forced to move.
But hey that's fine for them then. Everyone has forgotten and now jumps on the Zionist bandwagon.
Keep the insults coming. Between you and that other little man you might just make 3 brain cells.
If Israel wasn't still bombing and killing people 50+ years after occupying the West Bank and Gaza do you think people would be "jumping on the Zionist bandwagon"? But hey that's fine for them then. Everyone has forgotten and now jumps on the Zionist bandwagon.
Keep the insults coming. Between you and that other little man you might just make 3 brain cells.
And, in fairness, your posts get the response they deserve.
Scuffers said:
what I find interesting is that we are all banging on about Gaza, yet the West Bank is relatively calm, no blockade, no rocket attacks, and relatively speaking, people can come and go as they please (yes I know it's far from perfect, but it's a whole lot better than Gaza).
Abbass must be tearing his hair out at Hamas, just as he's making real progress, they basically f**k it all up (again).
What progress has Abbas made? Settlement building continues, Netanyahu has publicly admitted there won't be a two state solution. So exactly what progress has been made?Abbass must be tearing his hair out at Hamas, just as he's making real progress, they basically f**k it all up (again).
Countdown said:
Grumfutock said:
No of course they are not doing it now. However to obtain the land they did in 74. 196,000 people forced to move.
But hey that's fine for them then. Everyone has forgotten and now jumps on the Zionist bandwagon.
Keep the insults coming. Between you and that other little man you might just make 3 brain cells.
If Israel wasn't still bombing and killing people 50+ years after occupying the West Bank and Gaza do you think people would be "jumping on the Zionist bandwagon"? But hey that's fine for them then. Everyone has forgotten and now jumps on the Zionist bandwagon.
Keep the insults coming. Between you and that other little man you might just make 3 brain cells.
And, in fairness, your posts get the response they deserve.
Do people condemn them? No they go on holiday there!
Scuffers said:
Look, get back to basics then, what is Israel to do with Gaza?
1) Give all Palestinians the vote in a one state Israel just as South Africa did to the blacks OR allow Palestine to become a sovereign country without giving silly reasons why it can not do so.2) Withdraw from ALL illegal settlements as defined by the UN.
3) Rectify the UN Resolutions Israel is breaking.
4) Lift the illegal blockage of Gaza - this will no doubt increase violence on both sides, but it needs to be done for the long term good. It's called "blow back" - Israel has largely got itself into this mess through illegal oppression; there will be a messy way out for itself. "Can't do the time, don't do the crime" analogy.
5) Start treating the life of a Palestinian (under it's occupation) with the same respect as it does with an Israeli.
OR
6) Continue with whatever "it" is they are doing now which the World is getting rather fed-up off and strikes most impartial people as deeply unfair.
Israel has lost the trust of the World and also the Palestinians; any one action from 1-5 would go a short way for them trying to redeem themselves. You do all 6 and I don't think we'll be arguing about this in another 50 years. However the cynic in me things - Israel is perfectly happy with route 6 as it allows them to use excuses to take more and more control of the land that "God has promised them." - I would love to be proven wrong, but I am not holding my breath.
Edited by zuby84 on Sunday 24th August 08:54
While I'm at it (for fairness) - Things Palestine/Hamas should do:
1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
2) Accept that Israel will always exist in some shape or form from now on and get on with it
3) Rather than using violence against civilians to try and get their point across - engage in more peaceful protest. With social media etc... it won't take long for real change to happen.
4) Only use violence if they continue to be occupied and only on military targets
5) Don't use 4 as an excuse to kill a thousand innocent civilians rather carelessly.
OR
6) Claim that all the missiles they are firing at Israel are aimed at military targets and any civilians which have died are just "collateral damage."
Doing 1-5 this will be a great PR victory and will really put Israel in a corner for which it won't know what to do with. 6 may also pose a bit of a PR victory, but it's not right.
1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
2) Accept that Israel will always exist in some shape or form from now on and get on with it
3) Rather than using violence against civilians to try and get their point across - engage in more peaceful protest. With social media etc... it won't take long for real change to happen.
4) Only use violence if they continue to be occupied and only on military targets
5) Don't use 4 as an excuse to kill a thousand innocent civilians rather carelessly.
OR
6) Claim that all the missiles they are firing at Israel are aimed at military targets and any civilians which have died are just "collateral damage."
Doing 1-5 this will be a great PR victory and will really put Israel in a corner for which it won't know what to do with. 6 may also pose a bit of a PR victory, but it's not right.
Edited by zuby84 on Sunday 24th August 09:07
this is just comical!
May I remind you that every single ceasefire has been breached by Hamas Rockets?
t, think we have all had quite enough Pallywood.
zuby84 said:
While I'm at it (for fairness) - Things Palestine/Hamas should do:
1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
do you understand the term cause and effect?1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
May I remind you that every single ceasefire has been breached by Hamas Rockets?
zuby84 said:
2) Accept that Israel will always exist in some shape or form from now on and get on with it
Finally, something sensible and positive!zuby84 said:
3) Rather than using violence against civilians to try and get their point across - engage in more peaceful protest. With social media etc... it won't take long for real change to happen.
Would be nice, although I would argue they are already over-doing the social media bullst, think we have all had quite enough Pallywood.zuby84 said:
4) Only use violence if they continue to be occupied and only on military targets
How about NO VIOLENCE NO MATTER WHAT?zuby84 said:
5) Don't use 4 as an excuse to kill a thousand innocent civilians rather carelessly.
As above, NO MORE VIOLENCEzuby84 said:
Doing this will be a great PR victory and will really put Israel in a corner for which it won't know what to do with.
unlikely, however, if they did stop all violence, then there's a much better chance of a real peaceful outcome.Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 24th August 09:23
I'm sorry, Scuffers you are the comical one. I really think that more than a few posters on here actually feel sorry for you (myself included) - I'm not going to waste my time in "debating" with someone who debates like a child.
Wish there was a "block button" on here... You do people's nuts in.
Wish there was a "block button" on here... You do people's nuts in.
Scuffers said:
this is just comical!
May I remind you that every single ceasefire has been breached by Hamas Rockets? DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ACTUALLY TRUE. SEVERAL REPORTS THAT SOME BREACHES HAVE BEEN UNILATERAL SPLINTER GROUPS BUT CERTAINLY NOT 100% HAMAS.
t, think we have all had quite enough Pallywood. YOU COULDNT RESIST THAT ONE? I ASSUME ISRAEL HAVE BEEN 100% FAIR AND OBJECTIVE IN THE MEDIA? BOTH NEW AND OLD MEDIA?
Apologies for the cr4p quoting as on fat fingered iPad!zuby84 said:
While I'm at it (for fairness) - Things Palestine/Hamas should do:
1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
do you understand the term cause and effect? INVADE SOMEONE'S LAND, STEAL THEIR HOMES AND OPPRESS THEM -LEADING TO A 'RESISTANCE FORCE' THAT WONT GIVE UP FIGHTING BACK?1) Stop firing rockets indiscriminately at Israel, just because bombs are raining down on them indiscriminately - need to be the better side.
May I remind you that every single ceasefire has been breached by Hamas Rockets? DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS ACTUALLY TRUE. SEVERAL REPORTS THAT SOME BREACHES HAVE BEEN UNILATERAL SPLINTER GROUPS BUT CERTAINLY NOT 100% HAMAS.
zuby84 said:
2) Accept that Israel will always exist in some shape or form from now on and get on with it
Finally, something sensible and positive! AGREEDzuby84 said:
3) Rather than using violence against civilians to try and get their point across - engage in more peaceful protest. With social media etc... it won't take long for real change to happen.
Would be nice, although I would argue they are already over-doing the social media bullst, think we have all had quite enough Pallywood. YOU COULDNT RESIST THAT ONE? I ASSUME ISRAEL HAVE BEEN 100% FAIR AND OBJECTIVE IN THE MEDIA? BOTH NEW AND OLD MEDIA?zuby84 said:
4) Only use violence if they continue to be occupied and only on military targets
How about NO VIOLENCE NO MATTER WHAT? HOW ABOUT A WITHDRAWAL TO PRE AGREED LINES, GIVING BACK ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS IN CONJUNCTION WITH A DEMAND FOR THE CESSATION OF VIOLENCE?zuby84 said:
5) Don't use 4 as an excuse to kill a thousand innocent civilians rather carelessly.
As above, NO MORE VIOLENCE - HOW ABOUT NO MORE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION AS A CONDITION OR 'QUID PRO QUO' ? THE WORLD WILL THEN DEMAND NO MORE VIOLENCE, NOT THE OCCUPYING FORCE?zuby84 said:
Doing this will be a great PR victory and will really put Israel in a corner for which it won't know what to do with.
unlikely, however, if they did stop all violence, then there's a much better chance of a real peaceful outcome. CHICKEN AND EGG? ARE YOU DEMANDING A FULL CEASE FIRE SO THAT ISRAEL 'WINS' AND GETS TO KEEP ALL THE STOLEN LAND AND HOMES WHILST TREATING THE INDIGENOUS POPULATION AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS?Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 24th August 09:23
Grumfutock said:
So basically Israel should surrender? That's what your saying.
And as for "Rectify the UN Resolutions Israel is breaking", how about Hamas? Should they?
If that is aimed at my untidy post above then I have a simple answer:And as for "Rectify the UN Resolutions Israel is breaking", how about Hamas? Should they?
Edited by Grumfutock on Sunday 24th August 10:04
NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
Slaav said:
Grumfutock said:
So basically Israel should surrender? That's what your saying.
And as for "Rectify the UN Resolutions Israel is breaking", how about Hamas? Should they?
If that is aimed at my untidy post above then I have a simple answer:And as for "Rectify the UN Resolutions Israel is breaking", how about Hamas? Should they?
Edited by Grumfutock on Sunday 24th August 10:04
NO! I don't think they should surrender (in my understanding of the meaning of that word)
Do you think Israel should now get to keep all of the stolen land and illegal settlements and the Palestinians (note, not Hamas) should roll over, give up their claims and surrender?
And before asking, I think the behaviour on both sides has been extremely lacking if not illegal and verging on genocide/war crimes. I don't think I could ever support Hamas and their tactics but to a limited degree, I can understand slightly where they are coming from? As I have a great deal of sympathy for Israel at times!
Israel will not win by sealing of Gaza. Hamas will not win by denying Israel the right to exist. Neither will win by lobbing missiles at each other.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff